Beerus claims that base Goku in BoG couldn't beat Freeza?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

A long time ago, I was a fan of the decreased multiplier, but I just don't see the point of it now. It makes it seem like they're getting weaker rather than stronger. Aside from that, I always thought the 50x multiplier was just perfect for Super Saiyan throughout the entire story. It wouldn't make sense for Super Saiyan to be far superior to Kaioken x20 in one arc and significantly weaker in the next.

[CashmanX]

...as I orked."

I am now envisioning an orc with a Toribot mask and a huge pen. And it is awesome.

[kuartus4]

But you realise there is nearly a 20 year gap between when he comments this and when he actually drew the manga. right? He drew that in 1991 and it was in the Super Exciting Guide in 2009 that he said that he thought x50 was excessive. But Akira Toriyama said when he drew it he had it in his head that Goku was 10x the strength he had shown up till that point. What Goku showed at that point in strength though was Kaioken x10 and Kaioken x20. So it is either 100x(10x10) or 200x(20x10). At least that is how I see it and I think a few people also agree with me. The 50x base power seems fine to me if you consider it like that. He could have mistaken the 50x increase as including Goku's strength with the Kaioken technique. In which sense it is excessive if you think about it 500x(10x50) and 1,000x(20x50). And if it was only 10x base power. It would have been more effective he Goku just kept using Kaioken x20. Right? Why make a transformation that isn't superior to his technique at least?

As for Gohan not using the SSJ form. He cared more about keeping his identity then actually winning the thing. The only reason he agreed to enter was because Videl blackmailed him. And Vegeta also didn't care about winning either. He just wanted to face Goku. If he had to fight against #18 to get to Goku he would have probably just turned SSJ anyway despite his agreeing to not use the SSJ form. He could always fight him after the tournament if he lost too.

AT sounds kinda confused in that comment, so I shouldn't have brought it up. My theory of the ssj multiplier being 4x post Namek is not based on it anyway, so its okay. Its based on the implications given in the post Namek arcs.

And its not about whether Gohan cared more about keeping his identity secret than winning. Its about the fact that Gohan thought he could win the tournament in base with 18 and Piccolo competing. And he did care about winning. He even took a month off from school to train. Why would he do that if he didn't care? Obviously he cares about winning, yet wants to fight in base and thinks training for one month will increase his chances of winning in base.

[Hitiro]

And its not about whether Gohan cared more about keeping his identity secret than winning. Its about the fact that Gohan thought he could win the tournament in base with 18 and Piccolo competing. And he did care about winning. He even took a month off from school to train. Why would he do that if he didn't care? Obviously he cares about winning, yet wants to fight in base and thinks training for one month will increase his chances of winning in base.

Technically he could win even in base if he is too weak to deal with #18 or Piccolo. Had #18 and Piccolo thought each other in the first round it is highly likely that Piccolo would have won but at the cost of some stamina. It would then be possible for Gohan to take out Piccolo while he is tired. Also the fact that this is a tournament setting so knocking your opponent out of the ring counts as a win. But if Gohan actually cared about winning. Why does he worry about how much strength he'll show in the tournament? He can hardly not do any superhuman feats while fighting his father, Vegeta, 18# or Piccolo.

There is also the fact that Gohan could take the second place spot without having to fight Piccolo or #18. If Piccolo took out #18 and then Piccolo and Gohan are the only ones in the final because Gohan was strong enough to take out Vegeta or his father then he would have still won money. There are several ways you can really take this arc. Gohan doesn't necessarily have to be on par with Piccolo of #18 to get any of the prize money positions in the tournament. He only has to guarantee that he can beat his father and Vegeta. But Gohan never looked at this tournament as if he could definitely take first place. Only Chi Chi thought that.

[kuartus4]

And its not about whether Gohan cared more about keeping his identity secret than winning. Its about the fact that Gohan thought he could win the tournament in base with 18 and Piccolo competing. And he did care about winning. He even took a month off from school to train. Why would he do that if he didn't care? Obviously he cares about winning, yet wants to fight in base and thinks training for one month will increase his chances of winning in base.

Technically he could win even in base if he is too weak to deal with #18 or Piccolo. Had #18 and Piccolo thought each other in the first round it is highly likely that Piccolo would have won but at the cost of some stamina. It would then be possible for Gohan to take out Piccolo while he is tired. Also the fact that this is a tournament setting so knocking your opponent out of the ring counts as a win. But if Gohan actually cared about winning. Why does he worry about how much strength he'll show in the tournament? He can hardly not do any superhuman feats while fighting his father, Vegeta, 18# or Piccolo.

There is also the fact that Gohan could take the second place spot without having to fight Piccolo or #18. If Piccolo took out #18 and then Piccolo and Gohan are the only ones in the final because Gohan was strong enough to take out Vegeta or his father then he would have still won money. There are several ways you can really take this arc. Gohan doesn't necessarily have to be on par with Piccolo of #18 to get any of the prize money positions in the tournament. He only has to guarantee that he can beat his father and Vegeta. But Gohan never looked at this tournament as if he could definitely take first place. Only Chi Chi thought that.

Piccolo was on a whole nother level after his Rosat training. He could probably one shot 18. And Gohan literally said he really wanted to win and he even took a month off school to train to have a chance at winning, so there should be no doubt that he cared about winning.

Gohan said he needed to stop school for a while to have a chance at winning but What if he went up against 18 in the first round? That was a very real possibility that Gohan would have thought about. Yet he thinks that training will give him a chance to win in base, but he would be considering all possibilities, not just the ones where he faces Goku or Vegeta in the first rounds. So he must be thinking that Training will give him a chance to win in base regardless of what order of fighters he faces. He never says training will give him a chance to win unless he faces 18 or Piccolo in the first rounds.

[Hitiro]

Piccolo was on a whole nother level after his Rosat training. He could probably one shot 18. And Gohan literally said he really wanted to win and he even took a month off school to train to have a chance at winning, so there should be no doubt that he cared about winning.

Gohan said he needed to stop school for a while to have a chance at winning but What if he went up against 18 in the first round? That was a very real possibility that Gohan would have thought about. Yet he thinks that training will give him a chance to win in base, but he would be considering all possibilities, not just the ones where he faces Goku or Vegeta in the first rounds. So he must be thinking that Training will give him a chance to win in base regardless of what order of fighters he faces. He never says training will give him a chance to win unless he faces 18 or Piccolo in the first rounds.

When did Gohan say he really wanted to win? I can give you what was said according to the Viz translated manga when he talked to his mother. It didn't seem like he was that confident.

Gohan: "Um... Mom... Could I... enter the tournament... too?"
Gohan: "The winner gets ten million zeni... Second place is five million..."
Chi Chi: "Ten million zeni?!
Chi Chi: "Gohan you have gotta enter this thing! That's fifteen million zeni between you and your dad!!"
Gohan: "B-But we don't have any guarantee that..." < See here?
Chi Chi: "Oh, pfft! One of you's gonna win fer sure!!"
Gohan: "But I'll have to take time off school to train..."
Chi Chi: "You better!! You can catch up later!!"

Gohan told Kuririn that people get money up to 5th place. Kuririn asked Gohan to not tell Piccolo otherwise he wouldn't be guaranteed a winning spot. So take what you will of the manga. But I think Gohan would be happy to get any of the top 5 places. But if he was stronger than Goku and Vegeta he is at least guaranteed third place which comes with three million zeni.

[MajinAsura]

I think that base form BoG Goku could have stomped Frieza, and that Beerus was talking about Frieza saga base Goku. 'nuff sed.

We are talking about the part when Beerus was watching ssj goku kill frieza, right?

[singsing]

I think that base form BoG Goku could have stomped Freeza, and that Beerus was talking about Freeza saga base Goku. 'nuff sed.

We are talking about the part when Beerus was watching ssj goku kill Freeza, right?

No, we're talking about the part where Beerus is on Kaio's planet and is assessing Goku, with neither Kaio nor Goku saying otherwise.

[Regarder]

I was thinking about the Yakon scene and and what it means for this topic. That's a big part that makes people think something changed even before the Toriyama comment. The Beerus comment is a little in conflict with that reading.

How can base Goku be at 60 if he's able to contend with Yakon? There's somewhat an implication that the change to SS that time was only a 3.75 multiplier.


It's either:

1-The SS multiplier changed by Goku Vs Yakon
2-It was never a multiplier, but some huge addition, and Goku's base form caught up to be about 3 times smaller
3-Achieving SS means that you can draw your base form towards the transformation and fight at a Kaioken like level without needing the technique
4-Yakon wasn't all that strong, and Goku was using a weak level of SS (we know that FPSS can be dialed down to very low levels which feel like base)


3 and 2 are only possible if Beerus wasn't feeling all of base Goku's strength, and Goku and Kai both confirm the comment, so it's probably not the case. 4 and 1 are still weird because we have to handwave Kaioshin freaking out to even greater levels, we have to ignore that Goku had to go SS2 to defeat the energy drain, and we have to ignore that Dabura thought Yakon was strong. 4 is also bizarre because 800x50 Vs 3000/800 is a big difference. Can Yakon absorb up to a level of 80,000 kiris? Really?

So, it's either 2 or 3, or 1. 1 contradicts guidebooks at least, but 2 and 3 contradict taking Beerus's statement as fact.

Actually, I lied, and there's also these other non-power level options:

5-Yakon was just warming up until Goku went SS
6-Yakon is powerful but he's so big and weirdly shaped that he's relatively slow
7-Goku got very very lucky

It's probably not 5 because Yakon seemed pretty serious, and it's probably not 7 because Goku never really seemed shocked by Yakon to the level where he would have had he narrowly avoided death, and he took his time to transform.

That leads me to believe that 6 is the answer, just about. Yakon is slow for similar reasons that SSJ Grade 3 is slow. This allows Goku to be at 60 and both the SS multiplier and Beerus's comment to be accurate. Gohan makes a comment that Yakon is fast for his size, but the very fact that he makes that comment implies that it's in a relative sense and that being that big should still be slowing him down. Gohan is surprised at how much it is not doing that, but it still gives room for Yakon to be loads slower than if he had his powerlevel in Goku's body, allowing base Goku to just about contend with his speed at 60 kiris.

[Darkprince410]

4-Yakon wasn't all that strong, and Goku was using a weak level of SS (we know that FPSS can be dialed down to very low levels which feel like base)

This one seems to fit the most given what we're seeing. Goku never acted like his transformation into Super Saiya-jin was actually necessary in order for him to win, just that he wanted to use it for the light it generated. So that supports that not only was Goku and Yakon likely near eachother in terms of strength, but also that Goku wasn't putting out his full strength as a Super Saiya-jin. Now, as for why he went Ssj2, it was probably just a means of quickly and thoroughly overwhelming him. Unlike how it was shown in the anime, Yakon didn't slowly begin to swell up from his continued feeding on Goku's ki, but once he briefly transformed, you see Yakon swell up rapidly before popping. To me, this suggests that Goku was feeding him at a relatively low level of power, then immediately ramped up to Ssj2 to make him pop.

Kaioushin was freaking out over pretty much every villain Babi-di brought with him, and given Pui Pui's pathetic performance against Vegeta, one can argue that his ki sensing abilities are rather unrefined, and that he relies more on reputation than what he can actually sense. He believes that Babi-di would only recruit the strongest, so naturally he would assume them all to be insanely strong and something Goku and the others would need to team up for and stuff.

As for Dabura thinking Yakon is strong...why would that be an issue? In relation to the majority of the universe, Yakon would indeed be very powerful, and Dabura has likewise been constantly underestimating the strength of Goku and the others, so he was probably basing his assessments on a combination of those details.

[Regarder]

Hmm. You could be right. Kaioshin could just be that bad at sensing stuff. It makes him look really bad. Dabura could be rubbish too which is why he can't gauge the trios strength correctly.

Maybe this also means that the whole scene where he leaves the three strongest alive is just Dabura guessing that Piccolo was weaker than the base Saiyans. People have used this scene to say otherwise, which is another bit that would contradict Beerus's statement, but they were all suppressing their ki, so he'd have to have even greater levels of ki sensing than normal, able to sense out full powers that you are suppressing. If Dabura sucks that much at sensing power, then that can't be true. Could it be that Dabura and Babidi just heard them when they were hiding, and then Dabura guessed who was strongest (he probably knows that Kibito was weak from the past)?

[Kaboom]

As the King of the Demon Realm and an ancient wizard, Dabra and Bobbidi are all about magic. The way I see it, they used some sort of magical clairvoyance to not only realize that the heroes were hiding up there, but also "divine" who the three strongest were, even though they didn't fully understand the scope of that power in comparison to their minions' or their own.

Heck, that was kind of the point, if you ask me — to drive home what Kaioshin said about Bobbidi being physically weak, but still extremely dangerous because of his mastery of magic. This scene was the first demonstration of how unconventional for the heroes these two opponents were.

[Tectorman]

When Gohan is training on the Supreme Kai's planet, they end up breaking the Z Sword. Before the Elder Kai appears, they speculate as to what they should do now. Gohan supposes that the good workout he got was the point of the Z Sword. The Supreme Kai says that since Gohan got stronger in base, he should be much stronger as a SSJ.

But what does the Supreme Kai know about how the SSJ transformation works? Not necessarily a lot. But Goku and Gohan are two of the most knowledgeable experts on the transformation you'll find in-universe. Goku doubts that the training will be enough for Gohan to match Buu.

But neither he nor Gohan corrects the Kai on his assumption about how SSJ works. Which means the Kai was correct. Saiyans can get stronger in base, and it passes on to the transformed state.

[MajinAsura]

I think that base form BoG Goku could have stomped Freeza, and that Beerus was talking about Freeza saga base Goku. 'nuff sed.

We are talking about the part when Beerus was watching ssj goku kill Freeza, right?

No, we're talking about the part where Beerus is on Kaio's planet and is assessing Goku, with neither Kaio nor Goku saying otherwise.

From that standpoint, I think Beerus was either bluffing to see Goku's super Saiyan forms, or judging him by his appearance. In the 2008 special, Tarble said that abo and kado were as strong as frieza. When Goten and trunks were fighting them, they were basically on par with them until abo and kado started pulling moves out of their asses. Now goku is much stronger than goten or trunks, so I think it seems likely that he could beat frieza in base form. (Also, in the same special, goku said that frieza, "in hindsight wasn't much of a foe.")

[miguelnuva1]

I mentioned this earlier I believe Beerus is bluffing based on his tone just to see Goku transform.

[rereboy]

I mentioned this earlier I believe Beerus is bluffing based on his tone just to see Goku transform.

Kaio confirms Beerus statement and Goku doesn't disagree with either of them.

[miguelnuva1]

I mentioned this earlier I believe Beerus is bluffing based on his tone just to see Goku transform.

Kaio confirms Beerus statement and Goku doesn't disagree with either of them.

When did King Kai make that statement?

[rereboy]

I mentioned this earlier I believe Beerus is bluffing based on his tone just to see Goku transform.

Kaio confirms Beerus statement and Goku doesn't disagree with either of them.

When did King Kai make that statement?

Right after Beerus states that he doesn't think Goku could take care of Freeza without a transformation, Kaio agrees, I believe.

[KentalSSJ6]

I think that base form BoG Goku could have stomped Freeza, and that Beerus was talking about Freeza saga base Goku. 'nuff sed.

We are talking about the part when Beerus was watching ssj goku kill Freeza, right?

No, we're talking about the part where Beerus is on Kaio's planet and is assessing Goku, with neither Kaio nor Goku saying otherwise.

From that standpoint, I think Beerus was either bluffing to see Goku's super Saiyan forms, or judging him by his appearance. In the 2008 special, Tarble said that abo and kado were as strong as Freeza. When Goten and trunks were fighting them, they were basically on par with them until abo and kado started pulling moves out of their asses. Now goku is much stronger than goten or trunks, so I think it seems likely that he could beat Freeza in base form. (Also, in the same special, goku said that Freeza, "in hindsight wasn't much of a foe.")

Tarble only knew of Freezas first form which was only 530k. He had no knowledge of any forms past the first form so Abo and Kado > First Form Freeza.

And Freeza really wasent much of a foe. Hes too polarized. Can barely beat Base Goku, gets one shot by SSJ Goku. So yeah, not much of a foe at all.

[MajinAsura]

From that standpoint, I think Beerus was either bluffing to see Goku's super Saiyan forms, or judging him by his appearance. In the 2008 special, Tarble said that abo and kado were as strong as Freeza. When Goten and trunks were fighting them, they were basically on par with them until abo and kado started pulling moves out of their asses. Now goku is much stronger than goten or trunks, so I think it seems likely that he could beat Freeza in base form. (Also, in the same special, goku said that Freeza, "in hindsight wasn't much of a foe.")

Tarble only knew of Freezas first form which was only 530k. He had no knowledge of any forms past the first form so Abo and Kado > First Form Freeza.

And Freeza really wasent much of a foe. Hes too polarized. Can barely beat Base Goku, gets one shot by SSJ Goku. So yeah, not much of a foe at all.

I think that if Freeza could "barely beat" base goku back then, I think base form goku from BoG could have stomped frieza saga frieza.