What does the Z sword weigh?

[xmysticgohanx]

Yeah Genyosai's calc is the correct one

[dbgtFO]

I don't have the math skills to determine the strength needed to do this, but its obviously a lot more than the strength to just lift 40 tons.

I did find a calculation on another forum about this:

That looks interesting, thanks

[Tsufuru]

This was the same sword that Kibito couldn't even budge with two arms which would mean he wouldn't even be close to being 10x as strong as Goku was at the very start of the series even though he could supposedly give Gohan a difficult fight.

As numerically established, Goku at the start of the series is able to begin Roshi's weight training at 20 kilos of extra weight. He lifts other things in the series, but you have to supply the numbers yourself, so they can't be considered part of what Toriyama has numerically established in terms of strength.

If you bring real world number estimates in, then yes, you are right that it doesn't make much sense.

It's not really that impressive a sword, Spider-man could lift that.

Spider-man doesn't exist in the DB universe, so it would be a little difficult.

People can complain that DB characters should be able to lift eleventy billion tons because of muh real world science calcs so he can beat soupaman (yay!) or whoever all day, but the fact is that Toriyama made the numbers what they are, and not randomly too.

There's a relatively consistent progression going from:
-Wearing a 20 kilo turtle shell
-A 40 kilo one
-Wearing 100 kilos with an adult body
-Carrying 1,588 extra kilos when wearing weighted gear in 10x gravity
-Carrying 6,138 extra kilos around when wearing an unweighted gi in 100x gravity (if he were to wear the weighted gi again it would be 16,138 extra kilos)
-Vegeta withstanding 18,538 extra kilos under 300x gravity, assuming he weighs 62 kilos like Goku (Toriyama has Briefs specifically note that this would make you weigh 18 tonnes if you measure at 60 kilos in Earth gravity)
-Goku doing some training with 2 tonness on each limb is flying and punching and kicking with 8,000 extra kilos on him
-40 tonnes is too much, but somewhere between 8 and 40 is his limit, which fits being more than 18 (caveat: Kai's new planet may also be 10x gravity, so it can reasonably be even more in terms of weight)
-As a Super Saiyan he can go back to punching and kicking as a light work out with the 10 tonnes on each limb

Those figures are all consistent with each other (EDIT: the one error is the time chamber plot hole). You can say that the specific gravity of sandstone is 2.1 or whatever, and then calc a rock Goku lifted to be heavier by volume, but that's not something Toriyama used to give us a numerical measure on his strength. It's totally inconsistent... with real world physics, but it's totally consistent with what Toriyama wrote and established for the "physics" of his universe.

they arent realy consistent.

[Tsufuru]

Many times over if you consider powerlevel progression. Increasing your number by 10 times doesn't necesseraly means you can lift 10 times more.

if it means they get 10x more ki which it means i think than yes concentring that ki in strength they can loft 10 times more.
as akira toriyama said ki is everything.
only that dbz chars balance their ki how they find the best for a fight.

power levels are stupid for example king piccolo with a pl pf 200 is city level and BoZ piccolo with a pl of 400-500 is moon level+.

[Hitiro]

Many times over if you consider powerlevel progression. Increasing your number by 10 times doesn't necesseraly means you can lift 10 times more.

if it means they get 10x more ki which it means i think than yes concentring that ki in strength they can loft 10 times more.
as akira toriyama said ki is everything.
only that dbz chars balance their ki how they find the best for a fight.

power levels are stupid for example king piccolo with a pl pf 200 is city level and BoZ piccolo with a pl of 400-500 is moon level+.

Piccolo was probably more than city level with a BP of 200. Roshi was weaker than him and he took out the moon.

[Friezacooler]

Lol heaven ain't 10 times gravity cause of Mr Satan, and the 40 tons is flawed as Goku and weaker characters had better feats as a kid and in Frieza saga.

[xmysticgohanx]

Many times over if you consider powerlevel progression. Increasing your number by 10 times doesn't necesseraly means you can lift 10 times more.

if it means they get 10x more ki which it means i think than yes concentring that ki in strength they can loft 10 times more.
as akira toriyama said ki is everything.
only that dbz chars balance their ki how they find the best for a fight.

power levels are stupid for example king piccolo with a pl pf 200 is city level and BoZ piccolo with a pl of 400-500 is moon level+.

Piccolo was probably more than city level with a BP of 200. Roshi was weaker than him and he took out the moon.

Outlier

[RandomGuy96]

Many times over if you consider powerlevel progression. Increasing your number by 10 times doesn't necesseraly means you can lift 10 times more.

if it means they get 10x more ki which it means i think than yes concentring that ki in strength they can loft 10 times more.
as akira toriyama said ki is everything.
only that dbz chars balance their ki how they find the best for a fight.

power levels are stupid for example king piccolo with a pl pf 200 is city level and BoZ piccolo with a pl of 400-500 is moon level+.

Piccolo was probably more than city level with a BP of 200. Roshi was weaker than him and he took out the moon.

Roshi took out the moon with his Kamehameha while in his buff form. So there's nothing wrong with him being able to do that and Daimao only being a city buster. And he IS only a city buster; he was out of breath after firing a city buster, someone stronger than a much stronger version of Roshi (Yajirobe) was scared shitless of city busting power, and Daizenshuu 7 specifically compares Daimao's strongest attack to a small nuclear bomb.

[Bullza]

Well King Piccolo blew up a city. Then Piccolo Jr practically obliterated the entire island they were on, causing huge waves to tip big ships even (Goku was unharmed even though he was standing a few feet away) and then there's Nappa who caused an explosion the size of a large country.

That was sort of consistent at least especially as it took no effort at all for Nappa to pull that off.

[Regarder]

Yeah Genyosai's calc is the correct one

The weird thing is that I'm Genyosai. I did that calc AGES ago back on narutofan OBD. The launch velocity is higher than just going from what Tao said because it uses a projectile motion equation with the minimum launch velocity angle of 45 degrees (and then after getting the speed on a previous page I calc the average force needed there). I didn't know enough to include air resistance though, however there is a physics sim by a Colorado teaching org that does (see here: http://phet.colorado.edu/en/simulation/ ... ile-motion). If you include air resistance, the launch velocity needed rises so preposterously, it seems to be beyond the limits of the calculator.

The only reason to take stock in such calculations is if you want to compare characters from different series with a common basis of real physics for Spidermenz vs Bateman. I really really don't think Toriyama was thinking of such things when writing Dragonball though. I mean, he specifically wrote Roshi as going 100m in 5.6 seconds, in the same time period when people were calcing his movement speed as being high supersonic because Goku at the same level jumped kilometers in the air.

People on OBD also calced One Piece characters as being "hypersonic" based on Real Physics™. Then the author comes out and says that the cat guy with blades (Kuro? I can't remember) can only go 100m in 4 or 5 seconds. Much butthurt ensued. Travel speed Vs Fight speed was invoked, even though if we are sticking to real physics, then the very act of jumping at hypersonic speed would cause you to fly more than a km at least (even with air resistance); negating the ability to move short distances, and so where did the real physics needed to calc that speed go?

Back to Dragonball, if we are going the real physics route then the energy released by Tao moving at hypersonic speeds should have sprayed Cmdr Black and Officer Black with stone shrapnel and the shockwave should have knocked them off their feet. When do we STOP applying real physics? When we conveniently get the inflated speeds we want, while ignoring all other effects that would be caused by the same process? Or maybe we should accept that it's a highly entertaining comic and cartoon that tells physics to go F itself.

Any particular feat may well end up at whatever level when doing some sort of calculation or estimation, but chances are the author wasn't thinking of that when he made the character do that feat, so chances are it's wildly inconsistent with any time they are thinking about speed or strength numerically.

they arent realy consistent.

They show progression without contradicting each other. They are only inconsistent with things people have made up either by bringing in real physics and supplying the numbers themselves, or estimations of "It MUST be that fast, because THIS happened..."

That's fine, but don't expect that to be consistent.

[Tsufuru]

they are not.

krillin trained with 20 kg as a kid than trained with 40 kg and could run around like its nothing.
goku than came with his 22kg shoes in the 23rd budokai.
krillin could barely move when he was wearing them and that was over 3 years of training later so.....
and every1 was shocked including tien.
not to mention the gravity training.

vegeta training in 300 g in the android saga.
yet kid trunks could barely move in 100 g and vegeta still training in 100 as a ssj in the buu saga
that wohld literly be nothing to him which makes it pointless.
but some ppl say they need to get used to it first.

40 tons was already explained so moot.
tao bai bai would murder them physicaly i guess.
also the most important thing is the power diffrence doesnt fit with the number diffrence.

[RandomGuy96]

They show progression without contradicting each other.

No, they get much do. Even if you disregard the big gaps between characters, and the disparity between the numbers and what actually happens on-panel, given numbers result in stuff like Saiyan arc Goku being faster than Buu arc Gohan.

[Regarder]

krillin trained with 20 kg as a kid than trained with 40 kg and could run around like its nothing.
goku than came with his 22kg shoes in the 23rd budokai.
krillin could barely move when he was wearing them and that was over 3 years of training later so.....

There's a difference between carrying 40 kilos on your back, and trying to move with it on your feet. You need a lot less weight to make it difficult for someone to walk if it is on their feet. You can call that a bit iffy, but it's not a flat contradiction, because it's totally not the same kind of feat. It's not something so outrageously out from what's before that we can't give the author the benefit of the doubt for. Ten actually holds the weighted clothing up and estimates it to be either 100 kilos or (I think the translated versions changed it)lbs working out to 113 kilos.

So, the feat isn't that Goku can lift 100 kilos. It's that Goku can move around with all that weight on his body, and not only that but a lot of it concentrated in heavy boots.

vegeta training in 300 g in the android saga.
yet kid trunks could barely move in 100 g and vegeta still training in 100 as a ssj in the buu saga
that wohld literly be nothing to him which makes it pointless.

Or Vegeta is having a light work out for him. Did we ever see Vegeta reach 300 without SS in the manga? We only saw him ask for the machine, right?

It's your perception that it would be pointless, but it's never stated that Vegeta is going to a conquer a new level of 150 which is less than he did before. What's important is whether a character ever struggled to hit exactly the same numbers they did before in the same way.

40 tons was already explained so moot.

?

also the most important thing is the power diffrence doesnt fit with the number diffrence.

Powerlevel difference doesn't track with calced feats either. It doesn't matter because Toriyama never equated battle power with exactly how much could be lifted anyway.

No, they get much do. Even if you disregard the big gaps between characters, and the disparity between the numbers and what actually happens on-panel, given numbers result in stuff like Saiyan arc Goku being faster than Buu arc Gohan.

You're talking about speed feats.

Are you talking Snake Way travel feat Vs what it says for Gohan traveling to his school?

[RandomGuy96]

You're talking about speed feats.

Are you talking Snake Way travel feat Vs what it says for Gohan traveling to his school?

Yes.

Also, there's a difference between, say, the author just not knowing how fast something would have to be to perform a certain feat, and showing someone lifting and/or pushing an incredibly heavy object and then having trouble with a much lighter object later. Or having trouble lifting said object even when they can catch and push physical attacks with enough power to destroy entire planets and stars.

[Tsufuru]

wut?
running around with 40 kg is harder than moving in 20 kg shoes.
it is a clear contradiction especialy when you have something called ki.

you wanna tell me if i can run around like nothing with 40 kg on my back and after 3 years of training somehow i can barely move in 20 kg shoes?
thats realy funny.

nope there is a clear panel where vegeta is trying hard while training as a ssj in 150g.
kid trunks base is stronger than namek saga goku base(before zenkai) for obviouse reasons.

akira toriyama said its harder to lift while using the flying technique.

I'm not talking about power levels and higher power level = higher ki = higher stats.
they can concentrate their ki in every stat and every dbz char balances his stats how he sees the best for a fight.
for example Ussj its not realy a transformation its just concentrating more ki on power than speed.

[Regarder]

wut?
running around with 40 kg is harder than moving in 20 kg shoes.
it is a clear contradiction especialy when you have something called ki.

you wanna tell me if i can run around like nothing with 40 kg on my back and after 3 years of training somehow i can barely move in 20 kg shoes?
thats realy funny.

That's not funny at all. Are you telling me the opposite? That you'd be able to move your feet easily with that much weight on your feet?

An infantryman's pack can weigh 44 kilos. I doubt they'd be moving too well with 22 kilos on each foot though. People in real life can move with 40 kilos packs (apparently Toriyama didn't know this and thought it was impressive), because the back is that strong. No one runs around with 20 kilo shoes though, because of leverage.

There's a massive difference between the two things. Remember that Ten is able to lift the weight without failing and note how much it might be.

nope there is a clear panel where vegeta is trying hard while training as a ssj in 150g.

Really? So because Vegeta is sweating after training however long, he's struggling to manage 150g like it's a new milestone for him? That's reaching. There's nothing to indicate that at all.

kid trunks base is stronger than namek saga goku base(before zenkai) for obviouse reasons.

Yes, and 150 is more than 100. Vegeta apparently thought 300g was a lot even after considering the levels above that they'd reached with Zenkai.

akira toriyama said its harder to lift while using the flying technique.

It doesn't contradict the progression. It just means Goku easily handling 8 tonnes can handle more than that.

I'm not talking about power levels and higher power level = higher ki = higher stats.

I agree.

[Tsufuru]

you are ignoring a few things here first its after 3 years full of training and they use ki.
which by default cant be compared by humans.
you keep acting like krillin is as strong as a human.
and no if you can run around with 40 kg on your back you wont be shocked about 22kg shoes especialy after 3 years of training.
krillin at that point was way way above human level.
it makes 0 sense for krillin struggling to even move.
he could barely walk.
this would be understandable when a normal human would wear them but krillin?
thats just akira toriyama for you.

and i thought you dont use real life calcs and such?

no i replyed to your argment about vegeta only warming up.
it was cleary implied in the panel that it was not just warming up.
goku in namek saga in base before the zenkai could move freely without problems in 100g.
you want to tell me vegeta again VEGETA still trains in 150g in ssj after 7 years of training?
especialy when he already trained in 300g .
thats just akira toriyama derping again.

the whole numbers dont make sense so 40 tons or not it does not matter.
the only numbers that can be used are the ones meant for distance and such.
all the numbers were toriyama trys to show how fast or strong some1 is fails.
the best 1 is gohan in buu saga being as fast as nimbus yet beginning of z piccolo could keep up with nimbus lol.
he also didnt explained how power levels work.
some1 with a power level of 200 is city level and some1 with a power level of 400-500 is moon level.