The power limits of the FPSSJ/MSSJ form?

[Angelus]

For some reason, Goku didn't bother to have Gohan go into the ROSAT for the 2nd day, claiming that they have reached their limit. Of course, Goku can't actually go in again because he already went in the first time when he was a kid.

Does that mean that the FPPSSJ/MSSJ form's power limit is reached during the Cell Games? Meaning that no matter how hard a SSJ trains, they will never become any more powerful unless they reach SSJ2?

Does this imply that Goku's and Gohan's SSJ form's limit is that of themselves during the Cell Games? Once they attained SSJ2, they will preferable use it because the SSJ form has reached it limits?

Or do you think that a SSJ1 can become so powerful through training that being in SSJ1 can equal to a power of a SSJ2? Exclude fused characters from that though.

[Darkprince410]

It was more the fact that Goku knew that if Cell could get Gohan to transform, the power they had already achieved with a single trip into the Room was more than sufficient for what was needed. If they spent a second day in there, they'd need to train quite regularly in order to, at the very least, maintain their level.

Vegeta: “Well, well…So even the great Kakarot admits defeat against the rigors of that room…”
Goku: “Maybe…But pointlessly toughening up my body more than this is just torture, not training. But I won’t object if you guys enter that room again. It looks like you still have room left to toughen up more.”
Vegeta: “What was that…? I don’t like that…The way you said that made it sound like you’re saying that your true ability is greater than mine…”
Goku: “Yeah, a whole lot greater, I think.”

Goku's initial response to Vegeta's comment suggests that he still had room to increase, but to go beyond his current level of strength was pointless, and that it'd be more torturous to sit in there for any longer when it wasn't needed.

Or do you think that a SSJ1 can become so powerful through training that being in SSJ1 can equal to a power of a SSJ2? Exclude fused characters from that though.

Given that Ssj2's strength is based on the strength of the Super Saiya-jin form, I don't see it possible for Ssj to become stronger than Ssj2. That's not to say that they can't reach levels in their Ssj form that previously they only could in their Ssj2 form, but at any given point, a Saiya-jin's Ssj2 strength will be higher than their Ssj strength, given that it is always double that if their Ssj form.

To give some hypothetical numbers just to show what I mean.

Goku: 1
Goku Ssj: 50
Goku Ssj2: 100

Now, suppose Goku then trained for a bit and raised his battle power 5x

Goku: 5
Goku Ssj: 250
Goku: Ssj2: 500

As you can see, he was able to reach a level in his Ssj form that exceeded his old Ssj2, but his current Ssj2 was still higher.

[Angelus]

Goku: “Maybe…But pointlessly toughening up my body more than this is just torture, not training. But I won’t object if you guys enter that room again. It looks like you still have room left to toughen up more.”

Yeah this is the part that gets me. Even if Goku himself didn't have any more room for improvement, and couldn't go back in anyways because Goku already went in as a child, he could have asked Gohan to go in the 2nd time since Gohan won't be able to mop the floor with Cell at the current level. It just sounded like they reached a limit in that form.

Given that Ssj2's strength is based on the strength of the Super Saiya-jin form, I don't see it possible for Ssj to become stronger than Ssj2. That's not to say that they can't reach levels in their Ssj form that previously they only could in their Ssj2 form, but at any given point, a Saiya-jin's Ssj2 strength will be higher than their Ssj strength, given that it is always double that if their Ssj form.

Ah so theoretically, ASSJ Future Trunks could train so much that his ASSJ form could reach the same level as 25th WMAT SSJ2 Gohan?

[Hitiro]

Yeah this is the part that gets me. Even if Goku himself didn't have any more room for improvement, and couldn't go back in anyways because Goku already went in as a child, he could have asked Gohan to go in the 2nd time since Gohan won't be able to mop the floor with Cell at the current level. It just sounded like they reached a limit in that form.

Well, Goku isn't saying he hasn't got room for improvement. He is just saying that anymore training above his current strength is unnecessary. And when Goku said this he wasn't only on about himself. He was on about Gohan too. There was no need for him to push Gohan's training further because Goku had already surmised that Gohan would be enough to deal with Cell, whether with the rage or without it. I also don't get why people think Gohan couldn't take Cell in his regular SSJ form. From what I see it's highly likely, in my opinion, Gohan could have beaten Cell. The only reason he doesn't is because he doesn't want to fight. And Goku had already went in the RoSaT as a kid. But he didn't stay in there long. So he still has probably over a days worth of the RoSaT still left. I think Goku said he couldn't handle more than a month? That's 2 hours in real time. Goku and Gohan finish with 3 hours to spare. So Goku still has 25 hours left to spend in the RoSaT.

Ah so theoretically, ASSJ Future Trunks could train so much that his ASSJ form could reach the same level as 25th WMAT SSJ2 Gohan?

Theoretically a regular SSJ could surpass SSJ2 Gohan if they were twice as strong as Gohan in their base form.

[Angelus]

The part that gets me though is... Goku loves to train. Just as much as Vegeta does. So why would he stop training if there's still room for improvement? I mean, he trained in the afterlife without truly knowing that there is a "next level beyond SSJ2". He reached SSJ3 because of that.

Gohan is there but if Gohan still has time for improvement, why not put him in a 2nd time? It's not like Gohan's MSSJ/FPSSJ level was so much higher that Cells that Gohan could mop the floor with Cell with ease.

I don't think that ROSAT works that way. I think it's a per-entry thing, not hourly. Meaning, you can only enter twice in your life, or go inside once and stay in there for 2 days worth before going back out. Like if you go in for only 10 hours once, that's "1st entry" and then go in a second time for 8 hours, that's your "2nd entry" and you can no longer go in the ROSAT again without the door disappearing behind you because your "2 entries" have been used up.

[Kamiccolo9]

The part that gets me though is... Goku loves to train. Just as much as Vegeta does. So why would he stop training if there's still room for improvement? I mean, he trained in the afterlife without truly knowing that there is a "next level beyond SSJ2". He reached SSJ3 because of that.

I don't think that ROSAT works that way. I think it's a per-entry thing, not hourly. Meaning, you can only enter twice in your life, or go inside once and stay in there for 2 days worth before going back out. Like if you go in for only 10 hours once, that's "1st entry" and then go in a second time for 8 hours, that's your "2nd entry" and you can no longer go in the ROSAT again without the door disappearing behind you because your "2 entries" have been used up.

Didn't Piccolo go in twice during the Cell Arc, and once during the Buu Arc? And doesn't Popo go in each time to restock the food and stuff?

[Angelus]

I'm assuming Popo doesn't close the door behind him when does stock the food. It was said that the door disappears if you go beyond the allotment allowable. Of course you can have more than 2 people inside but that was just a food thing. The ROSAT's stock room can only hold enough food for 2 years worth for 2 people.

Piccolo went in the ROSAT, in the Buu arc once. When he went in with Super Buu to orchestrate the fight Gotenks.

Wasn't it only the kids that went in the ROSAT before Super Buu arrived?

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm assuming Popo doesn't close the door behind him when does stock the food. It was said that the door disappears if you go beyond the allotment allowable. Of course you can have more than 2 people inside but that was just a food thing. The ROSAT's stock room can only hold enough food for 2 years worth for 2 people.

Piccolo went in the ROSAT, in the Buu arc once. When he went in with Super Buu to orchestrate the fight Gotenks.

Wasn't it only the kids that went in the ROSAT before Super Buu arrived?

No, I meant Piccolo spent at least one day in there in the Cell Arc. I don't remember if he went in again or not. If he did, those plus the one time in the Buu Arc would equal 3 visits.

[Angelus]

It was just twice. 1 day in the Cell Saga and the second time, when brought in Super Buu with him, in the Buu Saga.

[Kaboom]

Any form of training will have diminishing returns, and you'll reach a point where you're not getting worthwhile results any more. Goku and Gohan had simply reached that point, and reaped all they could out of the Room of Spirit and Time. Obviously they were still capable of getting stronger, since Goku was back in first place ahead of Gohan by the Majin Boo arc.

[Kamiccolo9]

It was just twice. 1 day in the Cell Saga and the second time, when brought in Super Buu with him, in the Buu Saga.

I could have sworn he said he was going to go back in during the ten days before the Cell Games.

[Angelus]

Any form of training will have diminishing returns, and you'll reach a point where you're not getting worthwhile results any more. Goku and Gohan had simply reached that point, and reaped all they could out of the Room of Spirit and Time. Obviously they were still capable of getting stronger, since Goku was back in first place ahead of Gohan by the Majin Boo arc.

That's because Goku had SSJ2 and 3 by that time. Goku and Vegeta's SSJ2 forms were more powerful than Gohan's SSJ2 form. I'm talking about solely the FPSSH/MSSJ form. Does it cap out during the Cell Games? Is that it's power limit?

[Kaboom]

That's because Goku had SSJ2 and 3 by that time. Goku and Vegeta's SSJ2 forms were more powerful than Gohan's SSJ2 form. I'm talking about solely the FPSSH/MSSJ form. Does it cap out during the Cell Games? Is that it's power limit?

Presuming that the Super Saiyan forms are rough "multipliers" of power like the manga suggests and practically everything else to talk about them says they are, then... yeah, if Goku's Super Saiyan 2 has become stronger than Gohan's Super Saiyan 2, then he would likewise be ahead in Super Saiyan 1. Whatever form you train and gain power in will proportionately affect the others. In fact, one of the advantages of new higher forms may be that they're more effective to train with.

Assuming that individual forms reach absolute limits, in a "well, this is the maximum amount of power you will ever have in this form, period" way is a needlessly extreme interpretation, and just unnecessarily complicates things, if you ask me.

[Hitiro]

The part that gets me though is... Goku loves to train. Just as much as Vegeta does. So why would he stop training if there's still room for improvement? I mean, he trained in the afterlife without truly knowing that there is a "next level beyond SSJ2". He reached SSJ3 because of that.

Maybe Goku thought that the only person who would be able to achieve the next level in time for fighting Cell would be Gohan? You have to remember that Goku and Vegeta only got SSJ2 within the next 7 years of training and they made it sound extremely difficult. Therefore it could be safe to assume that they didn't achieve SSJ2 in another years worth of training. So if Goku and Gohan had trained for another year then it would have amounted to nothing for Goku in terms of transformations. I would also assume Goku was looking towards the future in making sure he still had time to go into the RoSaT. If another villain were to come along then Goku could use the RoSaT again.

Gohan is there but if Gohan still has time for improvement, why not put him in a 2nd time? It's not like Gohan's MSSJ/FPSSJ level was so much higher that Cells that Gohan could mop the floor with Cell with ease.

Without Gohan legitimately fighting in his SSJ form we have no way of knowing that though. A weakened Gohan was kind of losing against Dabra who was supposedly as strong as Cell but it wasn't that bad, they were mostly even. So take what you will from it.

I don't think that ROSAT works that way. I think it's a per-entry thing, not hourly. Meaning, you can only enter twice in your life, or go inside once and stay in there for 2 days worth before going back out. Like if you go in for only 10 hours once, that's "1st entry" and then go in a second time for 8 hours, that's your "2nd entry" and you can no longer go in the ROSAT again without the door disappearing behind you because your "2 entries" have been used up.

Piccolo said that no one can spend more than 48 hours in the RoSaT. There is never any indication it is a per-entry thing. And if it worked the way you say it does then how does Popo re-stock the food supply? Because surely after restocking it twice he can never do it again, lol.

But if you want further proof you can enter in there more than two times then Piccolo asks Goku if he wants to go into the RoSaT to teach them the fusion. If Goku couldn't go in there more than twice why would he even bring it up?

I'm assuming Popo doesn't close the door behind him when does stock the food. It was said that the door disappears if you go beyond the allotment allowable. Of course you can have more than 2 people inside but that was just a food thing. The ROSAT's stock room can only hold enough food for 2 years worth for 2 people.

The RoSaT's stock room can only hold enough food for 1 years worth for 2 people. I don't believe it is 2 years worth of food for 2 people. Otherwise I would imagine Vegeta would have stayed in there for 2 days straight off the bat.

Piccolo went in the ROSAT, in the Buu arc once. When he went in with Super Buu to orchestrate the fight Gotenks.

Wasn't it only the kids that went in the ROSAT before Super Buu arrived?

You are correct. Piccolo only went in there once in the Boo arc. The kids were already in there when he brought Evil Boo in.

[Darkprince410]

That's because Goku had SSJ2 and 3 by that time. Goku and Vegeta's SSJ2 forms were more powerful than Gohan's SSJ2 form. I'm talking about solely the FPSSH/MSSJ form. Does it cap out during the Cell Games? Is that it's power limit?

Given the nature of the Super Saiya-jin transformations that we can take from Super Exciting Guide (Ssj2 being twice that of Ssj), for their Ssj2 forms to be stronger than Gohan's means that their Ssj forms in turn were stronger than Gohan's Ssj form at the time.

And as said, it's not that Goku and Gohan didn't have room to improve, since Goku essentially stated he did have room to grow. It's just that Goku felt that it'd be unnecessary for the two of them to even finish out their existing year in the Room (let alone go in again), and that they'd be plenty powerful enough to get the job done. Goku was banking on Cell pushing Gohan into a rage that'd result in his transformation, so there wasn't any reason, in his mind, to go again.

[miguelnuva1]

The rosat holds enough foord for two saiyans for 1 year.

[hleV]

Goku probably meant that it's not worth torturing themselves inside ROSAT in order to gain an insignificant amount of power, because they already used up their ROSAT-sparring training method to its full potential. Like pointed out before, Gohan was boosted in strength enough that when he gets angry, he's able to defeat Cell. So enough is enough, and Goku later continues his usual kind of training in the afterlife because he actually enjoys it and it's not a torture.

[BlackMagick]

It was just twice. 1 day in the Cell Saga and the second time, when brought in Super Buu with him, in the Buu Saga.

I could have sworn he said he was going to go back in during the ten days before the Cell Games.

It's really funny, I have a vague memory of Piccolo going back to the RoSaT too, but I can't find it in the manga anywhere.

[Saiga]

It was just twice. 1 day in the Cell Saga and the second time, when brought in Super Buu with him, in the Buu Saga.

I could have sworn he said he was going to go back in during the ten days before the Cell Games.

He didn't go in before the 10 day waiting period, the only time it comes up during the Cell arc is the first time he goes in and comes out.

[Hitiro]

Goku probably meant that it's not worth torturing themselves inside ROSAT in order to gain an insignificant amount of power, because they already used up their ROSAT-sparring training method to its full potential. Like pointed out before, Gohan was boosted in strength enough that when he gets angry, he's able to defeat Cell. So enough is enough, and Goku later continues his usual kind of training in the afterlife because he actually enjoys it and it's not a torture.

The room itself is a pretty torturous environment. I don't think it was about gains. But having to put the body through a years worth of training in that environment again. In the Viz translation it says that the room as 1/4 of the air Earth has, it has 10x the gravity and the temperature in there ranges from -40 degrees to 120 degrees. Goku and Gohan could probably have made significant gains in there again but at the end of the day it would be horrible to stay in there for another year. I would honestly say that Goku's training in the afterlife is much less torture than the RoSaT training. Because if you think about it at least when Goku rests between his training sessions he isn't experiencing the kind of atmosphere provided in the RoSaT. If I was him I would much rather rest in a place with plenty of fresh air that is in abundance and has nice weather.