Hitiro wrote:You need to think about how you're presenting this "overexertion" thing then. I can overexert myself while lifting a couch. I wouldn't have to be anywhere near exhaustion to overexert myself. Saying Goku dropped the form through being overexerted is different from dropping the form through exhaustion. Because you could literally say he was at 100% of his strength and just lost the SSJ transformation from being overexerted while still having all of that stamina left. Goku did the one eye half open during the attack just before he dropped the SSJ form. Therefore he would have dropped it from exhaustion.
Overexertion can include a multitude of activities ranging from jogging to lifting. It doesn't specifically just refer to wearing your muscles out (which is technically exhaustion anyway) but stamina depletion as well. I'm saying that he appeared to be at or around full strength when he first attempted to push back the attack, followed by him putting his all into stopping it, followed by him looking somewhat exhausted as he was gradually becoming overpowered, followed by him losing the form, followed by him triggering the Super Saiyan God transformation through whatever means and then ultimately negating the attack.
But if you're going to say that the overexertion was a precursor to exhaustion and SSJ Goku reverted because he hit that exhaustion through his overexertion. Then Goku must have been revitalised when becoming SSJGod. Right? Because it wouldn't have mattered if he became SSJGod while fatigued. A fatigued character is only as strong as the strength he has left. If he is running on fumes then SSJGod isn't going to make a difference if Goku is at 1% of his power due to fatigue.
Transformations have already been shown to increase the user's power regardless of whether they had full stamina. The problem is that you're conflating the two. You may have a point that Goku himself didn't trigger SSG, but nothing in the movie suggests that the transformation itself literally restores a person's energy reserves. We're only informed that it dramatically increases strength. To posit anything besides the latter scenario of SSG boosting Goku's power is pure conjecture, and if anything, the fact that he could only remain in this form for a few seconds the second time presupposes that he was too exhausted to maintain it.
Can you give me examples of these occasions? Because as far as I'm aware the only fully-charged Kamehameha's Goku has dished out in the same format as in this movie are the very ones that trained his stamina.
Do I need to? No comment is made regarding Goku's stamina as a direct result of launching a Kamehameha the vast majority of the time unless he was already fighting for a significant amount of time. Goku has withstood battles far longer than this one using the same charged attack.
You're positing that Goku couldn't have done what he did without SSJGod. But we can't know that without knowing the inner-workings of what happened as he became SSJGod again. So the burden of proof is equally on you to prove that Goku couldn't have done what he did, no matter what, without SSJGod.
I'm positing that he couldn't because that's exactly what was shown - he tried to stop it without SSG and he failed, but after triggering SSG he succeeded. You're positing the assumption that he must have been too exhausted to do it before, I'm assuming nothing other than what was directly presented. The onus is on the individual providing extra assumptions, not the individual going by what is directly presented in the film.
Because there are a lot of unclear things if we look at the scenario. Was Goku at 100% or less? Did SSJGod make much of difference between his base? Did SSJGod revitalise him?
Revitalization was never implied to begin with, so there's no need to ask that last question. Goku could have been less than 100% in stamina, but that doesn't presuppose that he didn't use the full brunt of his strength to stop Beerus' attack. The Freeza arc makes it pretty clear that there's a distinction between stamina and strength when it comes to percentages - Freeza isn't implied to regain stamina when he goes 100%, he is directly suggested to increase his power.
Obviously, if Goku was nearing complete exhaustion then yes, he would have been noticeably weaker. He didn't initially look that way when he first attempted to fend off Beerus' attack though, so even if he was "revitalized" as you put it, it doesn't suggest that that was the sole reason for him dispersing the attack.
But we don't know the circumstance of base Goku when he took the attack or the circumstance of Goku achieving SSJGod again. So SSJ, and base, Goku in this scenario should not have any weight on how base Goku compares to SSJGod.
You're assuming that there was ever a "circumstance" of that nature in the first place. Why exactly do you assume that? The movie is quite clear in establishing that Goku became capable of accomplishing something that could not be done previously before retriggering the transformation.
Because I'd like to point out that the first time they attempted to make him a good all they succeeded in doing was increasing his power because they didn't do the ritual properly.
That is exactly my point. The ritual was only ever confirmed to spike the user's power, regardless of whether it was a successful one or not - the failed attempt was stated to only increase his power insignificantly, the successful one was stated to increase it dramatically. You could be completely right that Goku's friends contributed the power to Goku in that final scene (although it is speculative) but the notion that they contributed stamina as opposed to strength alone is baseless.
No... I mean it is your opinion that the transformation pushed him to a level of power that would negate the attack. Rather than replenish him back to where he was. It is of your opinion that all SSJGod did here was give him a power boost. I'm not talking about the fact that turning SSJGod allowed him to stop the attack.
Because that's exactly what happened. Goku didn't have the strength to do it before, he had the stength to do it afterwards. His power was obviously pushed to a level that allowed him to do that. This was explicitly shown. You're adding stamina into the discussion when it isn't needed. I'm making no assumptions of stamina replinishment because it wasn't implied.
Again, why? If we take SSJ regularly you could say that it is BSSJ(Base SSJ). Does that imply that SSJ isn't amplifying Goku's base form's power? So why is it that SSJ couldn't be amplifying SSJGod's power? If we're going to go down that route of course. I still think it is "SSJ fused with Godly power" rather then "SSJ with the power of SSJGod".
Because, again, Goku's phrasing of SSGSS's description doesn't imply amplification (linguistically, saying that I have "X but with the Y of Z" infers that I'm
incorporating Z's Y, not modifying the Y with X) which further suggests that the form follows the same principle as the Godly version of SS from BoG, so anything else is speculative. We both have our own speculations in regards to the significance of the blue hair but that's all they can be at the moment. We'll have to wait for more specific information if we're comparing it to SSG. I'm sure that we can both agree to this at least.
Also, I was saying that those statements aren't necessarily contradictory. According to Julian and others, though, "Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" is what's explicitly said in the film.
