Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[rereboy]

Great, but Goku and Vegeta were the ones who ended up creating this final Boo.

Vegetto was the responsible for that. Goku and Vegeta didn't even fight from the moment they defused to the moment Kid Buu appeared.

[Hugo Boss]

Great, but Goku and Vegeta were the ones who ended up creating this final Boo.

Vegetto was the responsible for that. Goku and Vegeta didn't even fight from the moment they defused to the moment Kid Buu appeared.

Vegetto could do it eitherway, but Goku and Vegeta did it defused after being absorbed. I still count that break as a fight, though.

[rereboy]

Maybe it counts as a fight for you for some reason, but I see no logical reason why it should.

You are arguing that the fact that they ripped the guys from cocoons without even fighting is what makes them "able to win", when in fact it was Vegetto who did that and it was Vegetto who did 99,9% of the work and the one that overcame all the actual challenges.

[Hugo Boss]

That is only my perception, you are not obligated to consider that break as a fight if you don't want to.

The way I see it, Vegetto managed to get absorbed without being assimilated. When he defused, Goku and Vegeta were still able to weaken Boo to the point where they thought they could fight him hand to hand. That is quite an accomplishment, though they had to use some powerful technique to fight him inside.

There are other moments that I consider as fights, such as Boo managing to absorb Gotenks, Piccolo and ultimately Gohan, thus defeating them all. Boo even killed them when he destroyed Earth. A lot of circunstances could have be set differently, but that is how I believe the story went. In a different outcome, Gohan would be the #1 if he had defeated Boo.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Nope, nothing says their base forms have to be stronger than their SS selves for it to be the case for Gotenks.

Gotenks' battle power is based on Goten's & Trunks' battle power. Unless for some reason the multiplier of Fusion changes, there is no other way to look at it.

Yes his power is dependent on their power, but the fusion formula may not work in the conventional way people assume it does.

How do you think that it works?

there is always a way to get stronger, in gokus case also i think he could have gotten stronger in the rosat but he intended for gohan to finish cell off anyway. also gohan was even with full powered regular perfect cell after coming out. and while goku was in the chamber he didnt know that cell absorbed 18 in the meantime and got wayyyy stronger than he was before.

he counted on gohans hidden powers. and my guess is that he wanted a year left if the situation ever calls for it in the future.

There are ways, such as new transformations (SS4, SSG, SSGSS), merging methods (Fusion, Potara), new techniques (Ryu-ken), improving their skills (Whis' training), or drawing out his dormant powers beyond their limits (Ultimate). Raising his base battle power isn't a way for massive gains anymore, as he said in Cell arc, which was proven in Boo arc.

[Alex9196]

but why would he train in his base form all the time on kais planet in super and bog?

also i wouldnt say merging is increasing YOUR power since an entirely new being is created.

[Truhan]

Base Gotenks couldn't be stronger than the separate kids at SSJ level, and if that level should be 50x the base power of a kid, then Gotenks' would range between that (or more, depending on the fusion formula) and 50x more (which is a SSJ transformation). SSJ Gotenks would be 25x more powerful than a regular SSJ2 and 50x more powerful than a regular SSJ3. It doesn't seem farfetched if you believe that Gotenks is stronger than Goku.

[dbgtFO]

How do you think that it works?

I think, that the Saiyans' natural state have a huge amount of room to improve upon, whereas their Super Saiyan states are not far from their limits, so a base state fusion ends up being a far larger power-up proportionaly, than a Super Fusion.

[Captain Space]

Base Gotenks couldn't be stronger than the separate kids at SSJ level, and if that level should be 50x the base power of a kid, then Gotenks' would range between that (or more, depending on the fusion formula) and 50x more (which is a SSJ transformation). SSJ Gotenks would be 25x more powerful than a regular SSJ2 and 50x more powerful than a regular SSJ3. It doesn't seem farfetched if you believe that Gotenks is stronger than Goku.

-Why couldn't base Gotenks be stronger than the separate SSJ kids? He sort of has to be, given how impressed people were with him even when they thought he couldn't go SSJ after fusing.

-Where is this 25x from? I'd advise against using the "SSJ2 is SSJ x2" thing if that's what you're doing. This is from a similar source to the one that threw out completely random power levels for Broly and Gogeta, and a downright nonsensical one for Cooler.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

but why would he train in his base form all the time on kais planet in super and bog?

I'm not saying that their power doesn't increase at all, I'm saying that it doesn't increase massively anymore, like a x2 increase. Goku couldn't get a x2 increase after 7 years of intense training in Heaven with a dead body.

I think, that the Saiyans' natural state have a huge amount of room to improve upon, whereas their Super Saiyan states are not far from their limits, so a base state fusion ends up being a far larger power-up proportionaly, than a Super Fusion.

You mean that doing Fusion and then transform gives a greater increase than doing Fusion when already transformed?

[Alex9196]

goku has no hurry. even if it takes him 10 years to double his strengh or more, since he gets special treatment it doesnt matter.

[Truhan]

-Why couldn't base Gotenks be stronger than the separate SSJ kids? He sort of has to be, given how impressed people were with him even when they thought he couldn't go SSJ after fusing.

-Where is this 25x from? I'd advise against using the "SSJ2 is SSJ x2" thing if that's what you're doing. This is from a similar source to the one that threw out completely random power levels for Broly and Gogeta, and a downright nonsensical one for Cooler.

Well, that's the point, people have been arguing on whether they work or not, and I lost grip of what has been officially stated. I agree with your first point though. Gotenks would have to be stronger than those kids at SSJ each, for Piccolo to consider them against Majin Buu, before Gotenks even transformed.

[Bando]

Base Gotenks couldn't be stronger than the separate kids at SSJ level, and if that level should be 50x the base power of a kid, then Gotenks' would range between that (or more, depending on the fusion formula) and 50x more (which is a SSJ transformation). SSJ Gotenks would be 25x more powerful than a regular SSJ2 and 50x more powerful than a regular SSJ3. It doesn't seem farfetched if you believe that Gotenks is stronger than Goku.

Why would Gotenks be twice as powerful than a SSj3 relative to a SSj2?

-Where is this 25x from? I'd advise against using the "SSJ2 is SSJ x2" thing if that's what you're doing. This is from a similar source to the one that threw out completely random power levels for Broly and Gogeta, and a downright nonsensical one for Cooler.

The Daizenshuu say Super Saiyan 2 is twice as strong as regular Super Saiyan. It's the video games that gauged movie characters' BPs.

[dbgtFO]

I think, that the Saiyans' natural state have a huge amount of room to improve upon, whereas their Super Saiyan states are not far from their limits, so a base state fusion ends up being a far larger power-up proportionaly, than a Super Fusion.

You mean that doing Fusion and then transform gives a greater increase than doing Fusion when already transformed?

No, I don't. Gotenks transforming to Super Saiyan or Goten and Trunks doing Super Fusion yields the same result. My theory does not disagree with that.

[Truhan]

Base Gotenks couldn't be stronger than the separate kids at SSJ level, and if that level should be 50x the base power of a kid, then Gotenks' would range between that (or more, depending on the fusion formula) and 50x more (which is a SSJ transformation). SSJ Gotenks would be 25x more powerful than a regular SSJ2 and 50x more powerful than a regular SSJ3. It doesn't seem farfetched if you believe that Gotenks is stronger than Goku.

Why would Gotenks be twice as twice powerful than a SSj3 relative to SSj2?

The idea in my post was to place Base Gotenks' power equal to that of a Kid at SSJ, which is 50x the base power. So, fusion at base would be like transforming into SSJ relative to an individual's power level.

Regular Saiyan = 1
Super Saiyan = 50 * 1
Super Saiyan 2 = 100 * 1
Super Saiyan 3 = 400 * 1

Fused Saiyan = 50
Fused SSJ = 50 * 50 (2500, which is 25 times more than a regular SSJ2)
Fused SSJ3 = 50 * 400 (20000, which is 50 times more than a regular SSJ3)

NOTE: I don't know if SSJ3 is a 4x increase over SSJ2's multiplier, so correct me if I'm wrong.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think, that the Saiyans' natural state have a huge amount of room to improve upon, whereas their Super Saiyan states are not far from their limits, so a base state fusion ends up being a far larger power-up proportionaly, than a Super Fusion.

You mean that doing Fusion and then transform gives a greater increase than doing Fusion when already transformed?

No, I don't. Gotenks transforming to Super Saiyan or Goten and Trunks doing Super Fusion yields the same result. My theory does not disagree with that.

Then I guess I didn't understand your theory, sorry. Could you explain it differently?

[Bando]

The idea in my post was to place Base Gotenks' power equal to that of a Kid at SSJ, which is 50x the base power. So, fusion at base would be like transforming into SSJ relative to an individual's power level.

Regular Saiyan = 1
Super Saiyan = 50 * 1
Super Saiyan 2 = 100 * 1
Super Saiyan 3 = 400 * 1

Fused Saiyan = 50
Fused SSJ = 50 * 50 (2500, which is 25 times more than a regular SSJ2)
Fused SSJ3 = 50 * 400 (20000, which is 50 times more than a regular SSJ3)

NOTE: I don't know if SSJ3 is a 4x increase over SSJ2's multiplier, so correct me if I'm wrong.

That makes a lot more sense. In your original post you hadn't mentioned you were talking about SSj3 Gotenks.

Spoiler:

"On p.62-63, it says that Super Saiyan 2 is twice as strong as regular Super Saiyan, and that Super Saiyan 3 is four times as strong as Super Saiyan 2. It also repeats Daizenshuu 7′s statement about regular Super Saiyan increasing the battle power by a factor of 50. Somewhat interestingly, the comment on regular Super Saiyan is the only one that uses the term “battle power”, while for 2 and 3 it simply says “strength”. This may be to go along with Daizenshuu 7′s statement that the increase in the character’s strength past the battle with Freeza cannot be measured in battle powers."

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/

[Captain Space]

I was referring to magazine-sourced numbers like this:





I don't think the Daizenshuu says anything about SSJ2. The above is where the SSJ2 and SSJ3 multipliers come from.

(Of course I personally don't consider any of them, even the Daizenshuu numbers that aren't taken directly from the manga, canon, but I know some people like using the Daizenshuu stuff, so.)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The SS2 & SS3 multipliers don't come from magazines or the Daizenshuu, they come from the Super Exciting Guides, which are as legit as the Daizenshuu, and the specific section that has these multipliers was supervised by Toriyama.

[Captain Space]

The SS2 & SS3 multipliers don't come from magazines or the Daizenshuu, they come from the Super Exciting Guides, which are as legit as the Daizenshuu, and the specific section that has these multipliers was supervised by Toriyama.

Man, I guess I'm really not on top of all this stuff, I thought they were from magazines...