Is there an absolute upper limit on Human battle power?

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Ok, so we know that the humans of the series (Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha) tend to perform far below the aliens ( Goku, Piccolo). But does it have to be this way? Is it conceivable for a pure blooded human to be stronger than Freeza, Cell or Boo? It seems like a stretch, but bigger leaps of power have happened before. Here is my argument that super saiyan power might not be forever out of reach for mankind.
1) If Saiyans can do it, why not us.
normal human power levels are on the order of 5. But this limit has already been broken. Krillin has a power level on the order of 300 at the start of Z (the exact number escapes me) And likely thought that was about as high as he would go ( He already surpassed his master and almost all humans at this point). But it wasn't. He improved greatly after a year of training for the saiyans, then he got another power up on Namek at the hands of the Grand Elder. So why does it have to stop there? You might say that the Elder awakened Krillins full potential, so thats it for him as far as power level goes. But if the Elder could unlock ones full potential, why didn't Gohan go Ultimate form on Namek? As the series goes on we see that Gohan has plenty more potential to awaken. Which brings me to me to my " if saiyans can do it" argument. you might think that with a base of 5, humans can only go so far above it before it seems silly. But Nappa was an elite among saiyans and had a power level of around 4000. Modern Goku now has something on the order of 100 Quintillion! ( or whatever crazy high number your maths spit out) The difference between Nappa and Goku is far more vast than the diffrence between Krillin and the farmer with a shotgun.
2)Mutants
It is said (somewhere) that Freeza's race is only about average, but that Freeza's family has a mutation that grants them abnormal battle strength. First Freeza had a power level of about 120 million, the strongest non-god in the universe before Goku went SSJ. Now, with Resurrection "F" his strength reaches higher than SSJ3! ( I have not seen the movie yet so no spoilers please) What would happen if a similarly mutated human was born? If it grants any where close to the same power boost as Freeza's, this human would easily surpass SSJ.
3) Oob
people tend to exclude him form the list of human fighters because he is the reincarnation of Boo. but Goku states several times that Oob is entirely home grown human. As far as we know, souls alone don't have any power ( or form) so is having Boo's soul the only reason he is so strong? Or does it only help Oob tap into the higher levels of human power that others could awaken too?

In conclusion, I think that Human characters still have the potential for vast increases in power (maybe even being useful in Super?)Do you agree, or do you think that humans have some absolute limit, some inherent biological restriction that means they can never fight on par with beings like Goku or Beerus?

[Sora Saiyan]

I don't believe they have an absolute limit, but I can't see a human DB character breaking past SSJ Goku in the Freeza arc for some hundreds of years. They will continue to make gains, but it will be very slow and continue to get slower IMO. They wont ever be anything compared to the Gods. From this you can probably guess that I believe Oobs power comes from Pure Boo and is nothing to do with him being human.

[Lord Beerus]

The human characters will be as strong as the plot require them to be. This answer may seem like a copout, but ultimately, it's up to Toei, and to an extension Toriyama, on how stronger the humans are or can possibly be. Example; in Resurrection F, Master Roshi, who last we checked had a BP of 180, then all of sudden he's effortlessly kicking the assess of Freeza's army, who's BP on average would in the low thousands. How did he get that stronger without any indication or hint? Because Toriyama and Toei demanded it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Kuririn couldn't catch up with the base Saiyans by the time the Artificial Humans appeared, and Tenshinhan couldn't even catch up to Kuririn, even after 7 years. Chaozu couldn't catch up to Yamcha. So, expect if they train for hunderds of years in the AfterLife, I don't see them reaching SS levels.

It's not just the Earthlings though. Piccolo seems to be stuck below the Super Saiyans, and Goku & Vegeta have also reached their limits by the end of Boo arc, but they keep getting stronger through new transformations now. Ultimate Gohan should be stuck at his level as well. Same for Golden Freeza, since he draw out all of his dormant powers through his training & transformation.

As for Oob, he could fight on par with Goku without doing any training, he obviously has Majin Boo's power. I guess we could count him as a mutant.

How did he get that stronger without any indication or hint? Because Toriyama and Toei demanded it.

No, it was because he trained, according to Toriyama.

[dbgtFO]

Well their problem is that they didn't have the specific power-ups available like Saiyans do. Saiyans get near death power-ups and on top of that they can even transform to draw out more power. The earthlings don't have that and at most they have demonstrated one transformation and that's Kame-sennin's buff form, which seems like something every race could potentially have.
It's not impossible they could catch up to the Saiyans' base states(at least pre God), but the Saiyans' transformations just make it practically impossible to keep up and one would need a very long lifespan to reach Super Saiyan power or very effective training methods.
The earthlings don't even use gravity chambers and just train "normally," so it's hard to imagine them getting to that level. Theoretically it could be possible, but they'd need to stop messing around and really take it seriously and even then it would probably take them 100 years, what a Saiyan could do in 10 and most wouldn't have that long a lifespan let alone that much time in their prime.

For your 3rd question, I actually gave this some thought recently and it strikes me as weird, why the soul of Majin Buu given a new body would give the person such power, as if the power comes from the soul rather than the body.
Back in the Freeza arc we have Ginyu changing bodies with Goku, but Krillin recognizing the incoming ki as Ginyu and Jheese, rather than Goku and Jheese. This would imply that the soul, has one's ki signature, but if it also had one's power, then Ginyu shouldn't have been expecting to get Goku's battle power of 180,000.
Always seemed a Little confusing.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

The human characters will be as strong as the plot require them to be. This answer may seem like a copout, but ultimately, it's up to Toei, and to an extension Toriyama, on how stronger the humans are or can possibly be. Example; in Resurrection F, Master Roshi, who last we checked had a BP of 180, then all of sudden he's effortlessly kicking the assess of Freeza's army, who's BP on average would in the low thousands. How did he get that stronger without any indication or hint? Because Toriyama and Toei demanded it.

Truly, plot strength has no limit. But if Toei and Toriyama are ok with powering up Roshi now, why were the humans so utterly useless in the cell and Boo arcs?

[h0kuten]

I'm beginning to think Kurririn didn't grow exponentially beyond his 14,000 battle power on Namek Lol. Well maybe he did, but only during the Androids Saga. He maybe powered up 2nd Form Frieza level, but I doubt it.

[Lord Beerus]

How did he get that stronger without any indication or hint? Because Toriyama and Toei demanded it.

No, it was because he trained, according to Toriyama.

Could you provide the link to the interview or tidbit that Toriyama provided that confirmed Roshi trained prior to ROF.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm beginning to think Kurririn didn't grow exponentially beyond his 14,000 battle power on Namek Lol. Well maybe he did, but only during the Androids Saga. He maybe powered up 2nd Form Freeza level, but I doubt it.

Artificial Humans #19 & #20 considered the Earthling trio's power to be valuable. I think they are at early millions.

How did he get that stronger without any indication or hint? Because Toriyama and Toei demanded it.

No, it was because he trained, according to Toriyama.

Could you provide the link to the interview or tidbit that Toriyama provided that confirmed Roshi trained prior to ROF.

It's from Volume F:

「その気になりさえすれば、もともとあれくらいは強い」
"If he had only felt like it, he could have been roughly that strong all along."

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

For your 3rd question, I actually gave this some thought recently and it strikes me as weird, why the soul of Majin Buu given a new body would give the person such power, as if the power comes from the soul rather than the body.
Back in the Freeza arc we have Ginyu changing bodies with Goku, but Krillin recognizing the incoming ki as Ginyu and Jheese, rather than Goku and Jheese. This would imply that the soul, has one's ki signature, but if it also had one's power, then Ginyu shouldn't have been expecting to get Goku's battle power of 180,000.
Always seemed a Little confusing.

yeah, that it it also seems weird that Enma can just make a soul go from pure evil to good just like that. If morality and personality aren't inherent in a soul, than what even is it? Just Ki power?
Anyway, Oobs body has to special to for it to have the stamina to handle Boo's power

[Lord Beerus]

Truly, plot strength has no limit. But if Toei and Toriyama are ok with powering up Roshi now, why were the humans so utterly useless in the cell and Boo arcs?

Because Toriyama didn't need any have any plans for the human cast to contribute significantly in terms of fighting the villains in the Cell or Majin Boo arc, so they simply stayed weak. If Toriyama or Toei need a character to defeat or severely harm a villain, and they were previously weak in the story, their power will spike one way or another.

It's from Volume F:

「その気になりさえすれば、もともとあれくらいは強い」
"If he had only felt like it, he could have been roughly that strong all along."

Hmm. That certainly is very interesting. Don't know how I missed that. Nice to know. Cheers, DBZGTKOSDH.

[theherodjl]

If all humans had access to the same level of environmental conditions(higher gravity, less air, fluctuating temperature) and someone as strong or stronger to spar with for a long time then they could reach higher levels than what we see them. However in comparison to the Saiyans and Piccolo, the gains they make takes even more effort and when threats more powerful than both started appearing then they just gave up because it would take too long to catch up.

Though why they don't abuse the ROSAT and it's inconsistent rules I don't know since it's been around since day 1 of being allowed to enter Kami's temple...

[Galan007]

As for Oob, he could fight on par with Goku without doing any training, he obviously has Majin Boo's power. I guess we could count him as a mutant.

Oob is a human, who was (presumably) conceived by normal Earthlings, and born on Earth. The fact that he was born with Majin Boo's abnormally high BP thanks to King Enma's intervention, doesn't make him a mutant by default.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The Android saga humans definitely felt somewhat relevant to Base Gohan and suppressed Piccolo, in my opinion. I think they all at least break one million. I'm not one who leaves Yamcha always below Reacoom or Tenshinhan always below Captain Ginyu or Krillin always below Freeza's first form.

That being said I feel the Android arc is their peak. I don't see them ever reaching the likes of 50% Freeza or KKx10 Namek Goku or that high. I have Krillin peaking at 6,000,000.

[Doctor.]

Wait, so if Oob is so strong because of Boo, then does this mean every creature in the DB universe who was born with incredible power (Freeza for instance) have such power because of their reincarnation? When the Dragon Team die and get reincarnated, will their descendants have huge power as a result?

[Galan007]

Wait, so if Oob is so strong because of Boo, then does this mean every creature in the DB universe who was born with incredible power (Freeza for instance) have such power because of their reincarnation? When the Dragon Team die and get reincarnated, will their descendants have huge power as a result?

I don't think that is something we should assume unless we are given a legitimate reason to(like we were in Oob's case.)

[Kaboom]

I don't believe ANYONE has a so-called "absolute limit" to their power. They have temporary limits and hit plateaus where they may run out of ways to get significantly stronger, but that's not the same thing. Such supposed limits are always broken. The humans probably simply don't grow as quickly as Saiyans or warrior Namekians do, and regardless of power level their comparatively frail bodies likely can't handle things like extreme gravity and temperatures and what-not that the Saiyans use for intense training.

So it's not so much about hitting a limit in strength itself, and more about lacking in ways to improve.

As for Oob... he was basically born with a persistent XP boost. He's got a default amount of dormant power from Pure Boo and apparently it's comparatively easy for him to bring it out.

[LightBing]

I don't believe ANYONE has a so-called "absolute limit" to their power. They have temporary limits and hit plateaus where they may run out of ways to get significantly stronger, but that's not the same thing. Such supposed limits are always broken. The humans probably simply don't grow as quickly as Saiyans or warrior Namekians do, and regardless of power level their comparatively frail bodies likely can't handle things like extreme gravity and temperatures and what-not that the Saiyans use for intense training.

So it's not so much about hitting a limit in strength itself, and more about lacking in ways to improve.

Exactly this; only during the Namek arc the gaps between Humans and the Saiyans/Piccolo become abysmal. They followed the training methods until Kaio and always kept up somewhat. The introduction of the SSJ, created a wall too large to overcome, they didn't even used the Rosat. It's plausible that if they used the room and had the Kaioken or a related technique they would still be relevant without it seeming unlikely.

[DBZAOTA482]

Yes, that's why ki control is essential... to surpass these limits.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

As for Oob, he could fight on par with Goku without doing any training, he obviously has Majin Boo's power. I guess we could count him as a mutant.

Oob is a human, who was (presumably) conceived by normal Earthlings, and born on Earth. The fact that he was born with Majin Boo's abnormally high BP thanks to King Enma's intervention, doesn't make him a mutant by default.

When Ginyu saw Goku's unusually high battle power, he assumed that he was a mutant that was born with a huge battle power, like him, the rest of the Ginyu Tokusentai, and Freeza. So, it seems that in the Dragon World, those who are born with an abnormal battle power are mutants.