The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

[Tectorman]

Krillin Hit #1: DBZ Ch.24. Tien is about to attack Nappa, when Piccolo hits him instead, then Krillin hits him with a two-handed blow, knocking him towards Gohan, who does not attack out of fear.

Krillin Hit #2: DBZ Ch.27. Piccolo just learned that Nappa's tail isn't a weakness, and Nappa has just knocked Gohan away. He's about to go finish Gohan off, when Krillin interrupts him with a kick.

Krillin Hit #3: DBZ Ch.27. The very next panel. Krillin follows up his previous kick with a left jab that sends Nappa flying.

Krillin Dodge: DBZ Ch.27. The facing page. Nappa arrests his momentum from Krillin's jab and flies back at him. Krillin dodges Nappa's left piledriver. Absolutely no one distracted or otherwise interfered with Nappa to make Krillin's dodge easier to pull off.

So again, while small differences in power level can lead to massive advantages in battle, they do not always play out that way. The difference between Nappa and Krillin was a much greater ratio than even Goku's 90,000 versus the Ginyu Force, let alone the 60,000 that Captain Ginyu expected, and yet, Krillin dodged Nappa better than the Ginyu Force dodged Goku.

...

As for the question of Vegeta's "Unh!!", is that a grunt of difficulty and frustration, or is that mere surprise that his son is at the level that he is? If Vegeta is expecting a certain amount of speed and a certain amount of force and Trunks's attacks are exceeding those predictions, then a remark of surprise is in order. And the fact that we have two such remarks doesn't change anything. On Trunks's first punch, we have a "!!" from Vegeta (surprise at his son's speed, which can exist independent of whether it compares favorably to Vegeta's abilities or not). Then we have a flurry of punches from Trunks, and the next panel is Vegeta's "Unh!!".

Remember, it was only recently that Vegeta had decided that Trunks was old enough to start training. And he obviously had no idea that his son could go SSJ. Ergo, the fledgling ability and technique that his son has developed by playing with Goten is unknown to Vegeta. So his "Unh!!", separate from his previous "!!", could easily be in response to his son's demonstrated technique in that flurry.

[Hitiro]

Krillin Hit #1: DBZ Ch.24. Tenshinhan is about to attack Nappa, when Piccolo hits him instead, then Krillin hits him with a two-handed blow, knocking him towards Gohan, who does not attack out of fear.

Krillin Hit #2: DBZ Ch.27. Piccolo just learned that Nappa's tail isn't a weakness, and Nappa has just knocked Gohan away. He's about to go finish Gohan off, when Krillin interrupts him with a kick.

Krillin Hit #3: DBZ Ch.27. The very next panel. Krillin follows up his previous kick with a left jab that sends Nappa flying.

Well this was difficult to notice considering the second blow transitioned straight into this blow. It could even be down to Nappa still reeling from the last one. So I wouldn't put much face in this one either.

Krillin Dodge: DBZ Ch.27. The facing page. Nappa arrests his momentum from Krillin's jab and flies back at him. Krillin dodges Nappa's left piledriver. Absolutely no one distracted or otherwise interfered with Nappa to make Krillin's dodge easier to pull off.

Kuririn dodging this attack isn't really so special as lots of characters have demonstrated being able to luckily dodge a character much more powerful than them. And in this case Kuririn was aware of the blow a decent time in advance because it was incredibly telegraphed.

So again, while small differences in power level can lead to massive advantages in battle, they do not always play out that way. The difference between Nappa and Krillin was a much greater ratio than even Goku's 90,000 versus the Ginyu Force, let alone the 60,000 that Captain Ginyu expected, and yet, Krillin dodged Nappa better than the Ginyu Force dodged Goku.

That is unclear as we don't know how strong Kuririn is during this fight. His original reading was below 1,200. Which is what a Saibaiman is. Yet he dispatched them all except of one. He could easily be in the mid 2,000's. And the Ginyu Force were still under the impression Goku was weak. So it is much easier for him to dispatch them when they are constantly underestimating him.

As for the question of Vegeta's "Unh!!", is that a grunt of difficulty and frustration, or is that mere surprise that his son is at the level that he is? If Vegeta is expecting a certain amount of speed and a certain amount of force and Trunks's attacks are exceeding those predictions, then a remark of surprise is in order. And the fact that we have two such remarks doesn't change anything. On Trunks's first punch, we have a "!!" from Vegeta (surprise at his son's speed, which can exist independent of whether it compares favorably to Vegeta's abilities or not). Then we have a flurry of punches from Trunks, and the next panel is Vegeta's "Unh!!".

If this is a direct translation from the Japanese sound effect then it is certainly a grunt to express physical effort.

http://thejadednetwork.com/sfx/index/n/

Also if it was a surprise they would have made it more clear by throwing in a ? In there. "!!" Is pretty synonymous for being surprised but usually if they're including a word then they will include a ? From what I've seen, like "huh?!"

Remember, it was only recently that Vegeta had decided that Trunks was old enough to start training. And he obviously had no idea that his son could go SSJ. Ergo, the fledgling ability and technique that his son has developed by playing with Goten is unknown to Vegeta. So his "Unh!!", separate from his previous "!!", could easily be in response to his son's demonstrated technique in that flurry.

As I said above the sfx is for exerting effort in Japanese. If it were surprise I would imagine it would be more clear like the "!!"

[Tectorman]

Krillin Hit #1: DBZ Ch.24. Tenshinhan is about to attack Nappa, when Piccolo hits him instead, then Krillin hits him with a two-handed blow, knocking him towards Gohan, who does not attack out of fear.

Krillin Hit #2: DBZ Ch.27. Piccolo just learned that Nappa's tail isn't a weakness, and Nappa has just knocked Gohan away. He's about to go finish Gohan off, when Krillin interrupts him with a kick.

Krillin Hit #3: DBZ Ch.27. The very next panel. Krillin follows up his previous kick with a left jab that sends Nappa flying.

Well this was difficult to notice considering the second blow transitioned straight into this blow. It could even be down to Nappa still reeling from the last one. So I wouldn't put much face in this one either.

I'm not putting much face in this. I'm just also not putting much face in Vegeta versus Trunks, either. I mean, Toriyama including that to illustrate that Trunks exceeds all of Vegeta's expectations of how strong an eight-year-old Saiyan child should be (especially compared to every other eight-year-old Saiyan child that Vegeta's ever encountered, including Gohan back when he was that age), I can totally buy. But you seem to have some pressing need for me to take Vegeta versus Trunks as a legitimate feat, and I just don't see the need.

Krillin Dodge: DBZ Ch.27. The facing page. Nappa arrests his momentum from Krillin's jab and flies back at him. Krillin dodges Nappa's left piledriver. Absolutely no one distracted or otherwise interfered with Nappa to make Krillin's dodge easier to pull off.

Kuririn dodging this attack isn't really so special as lots of characters have demonstrated being able to luckily dodge a character much more powerful than them. And in this case Kuririn was aware of the blow a decent time in advance because it was incredibly telegraphed.

If lucky dodges get to be a thing, then lucky hits get to be a thing.

So again, while small differences in power level can lead to massive advantages in battle, they do not always play out that way. The difference between Nappa and Krillin was a much greater ratio than even Goku's 90,000 versus the Ginyu Force, let alone the 60,000 that Captain Ginyu expected, and yet, Krillin dodged Nappa better than the Ginyu Force dodged Goku.

That is unclear as we don't know how strong Kuririn is during this fight. His original reading was below 1,200. Which is what a Saibaiman is. Yet he dispatched them all except of one. He could easily be in the mid 2,000's. And the Ginyu Force were still under the impression Goku was weak. So it is much easier for him to dispatch them when they are constantly underestimating him.

So a character underestimating another character makes it easier for that second character to fight the first character. So Vegeta having little expectations of his son's ability (the entire challenge was one hit to the face; Vegeta considered Trunks's best to maybe-maybe not be enough to equate to one whole hit) makes Trunks's efforts turn out better than otherwise. Gotcha.

As for the question of Vegeta's "Unh!!", is that a grunt of difficulty and frustration, or is that mere surprise that his son is at the level that he is? If Vegeta is expecting a certain amount of speed and a certain amount of force and Trunks's attacks are exceeding those predictions, then a remark of surprise is in order. And the fact that we have two such remarks doesn't change anything. On Trunks's first punch, we have a "!!" from Vegeta (surprise at his son's speed, which can exist independent of whether it compares favorably to Vegeta's abilities or not). Then we have a flurry of punches from Trunks, and the next panel is Vegeta's "Unh!!".

If this is a direct translation from the Japanese sound effect then it is certainly a grunt to express physical effort.

Also if it was a surprise they would have made it more clear by throwing in a ? In there. "!!" Is pretty synonymous for being surprised but usually if they're including a word then they will include a ? From what I've seen, like "huh?!"

Remember, it was only recently that Vegeta had decided that Trunks was old enough to start training. And he obviously had no idea that his son could go SSJ. Ergo, the fledgling ability and technique that his son has developed by playing with Goten is unknown to Vegeta. So his "Unh!!", separate from his previous "!!", could easily be in response to his son's demonstrated technique in that flurry.

As I said above the sfx is for exerting effort in Japanese. If it were surprise I would imagine it would be more clear like the "!!"

So it's exerting effort. All that means is that the effort Vegeta is using is something that Trunks exceeded, so he had to exert more. As I've already said, I don't buy Vegeta's effort shown there as equivalent to the very best that he could do. Trunks pushing what Vegeta showed there is not Trunks pushing Vegeta overall.

[Hitiro]

I'm not putting much face in this. I'm just also not putting much face in Vegeta versus Trunks, either. I mean, Toriyama including that to illustrate that Trunks exceeds all of Vegeta's expectations of how strong an eight-year-old Saiyan child should be (especially compared to every other eight-year-old Saiyan child that Vegeta's ever encountered, including Gohan back when he was that age), I can totally buy. But you seem to have some pressing need for me to take Vegeta versus Trunks as a legitimate feat, and I just don't see the need.

I just don't understand how this scene can play out the way you say with Vegeta being 2x-3x stronger than him. All fights leading up to this point have clearly demonstrated that this can't be the case.

If lucky dodges get to be a thing, then lucky hits get to be a thing.

Why? A character who is significantly stronger than another should be able to dodge effectively without it being luck based. Launching a punch is based on it having to connect. If you've thrown a punch you have to make sure you've thrown it wih the intent to connect. If it misses then there is no way to make it connect other than throwing another punch. But dodging is something you will always be able to control.

So a character underestimating another character makes it easier for that second character to fight the first character. So Vegeta having little expectations of his son's ability (the entire challenge was one hit to the face; Vegeta considered Trunks's best to maybe-maybe not be enough to equate to one whole hit) makes Trunks's efforts turn out better than otherwise. Gotcha.

No. Underestimating a character allows you to easily be hit by that character. And continual underestimating would also allow that. But after the first attack Vegeta should not be underestimating his son here. The only reason the Ginyu Force continued to is because they relied on their scouters which were saying Goku was weak. For Vegeta who can accurately judge a characters strength based purely on movement this should not be a thing for him against the first few blows of Trunks.

So it's exerting effort. All that means is that the effort Vegeta is using is something that Trunks exceeded, so he had to exert more. As I've already said, I don't buy Vegeta's effort shown there as equivalent to the very best that he could do. Trunks pushing what Vegeta showed there is not Trunks pushing Vegeta overall.

I'm sorry. But nobody grunts while using half of their strength. Do you walk into a gym and grunt when you lift a weight you can easily manage? I wouldn't think so. If Vegeta produced an uhn! Here then that would be indicative of him actually trying. Like you would in a gym.

[apex_pretador]

My Theory:

SS1 gotenks < Super buu < SS3 gotenks < Gohan
In numbers, this'll be :
10 < 14 < 15 < 18

It is possible that gotenks is not using his power to the fullest. This is based on fights.

[DanielSSJ]

We know that the gap between them is less than 2x, seeing how Super/Evil Boo and SSJ3 Gotenks were about even with each other, and when Boo absorbs Gotenks, he completely overpowers Gohan. I usually make Gohan to be right between SSJ3 Gotenks and Gotenks Boo, so the gap is 50%.

[DBZAOTA482]

Gotenks started to mess Super Boo up once he got serious so.... a 1.5x gap.

[Darkprince410]

Gotenks started to mess Super Boo up once he got serious so.... a 1.5x gap.

At the same time though, Buu established that he had sensed Gohan, and devised a plan by then to absorb Gotenks and Piccolo, seeing Gohan as the only person that threatened to usurp him as the strongest. So, while it seemed that Gotenks was doing so well, it's just as possible (and likely, given the statements) that Buu just let Gotenks wail on him, knowing that his time limit was almost up.

[Hitiro]

Gotenks started to mess Super Boo up once he got serious so.... a 1.5x gap.

At the same time though, Buu established that he had sensed Gohan, and devised a plan by then to absorb Gotenks and Piccolo, seeing Gohan as the only person that threatened to usurp him as the strongest. So, while it seemed that Gotenks was doing so well, it's just as possible (and likely, given the statements) that Buu just let Gotenks wail on him, knowing that his time limit was almost up.

I'm not sure he planned to absorb Piccolo. I think it was a happy accident. The dialogue from what I recall doesn't seem to actually suggest anything about Piccolo. Only Gotenks.

[Darkprince410]

I'm not sure he planned to absorb Piccolo. I think it was a happy accident. The dialogue from what I recall doesn't seem to actually suggest anything about Piccolo. Only Gotenks.

When he was still devising what he wanted to do, just before absorbing them, he did specifically comment on absorbing Piccolo as well as Gotenks

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P6.1
Context: Boo thinking to himself, before he absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo
Boo: “…If I just add that squirt’s power and…that ‘Piccolo’ guy’s brains, then…”

He then specifically comments about how he aimed for Gotenks, but that he absorbed Gotenks knowing that it'd secure his throne as the strongest around. Piccolo wasn't mentioned in that specific moment just because his strength wouldn't have been any real factor on its own.

[Hitiro]

I'm not sure he planned to absorb Piccolo. I think it was a happy accident. The dialogue from what I recall doesn't seem to actually suggest anything about Piccolo. Only Gotenks.

When he was still devising what he wanted to do, just before absorbing them, he did specifically comment on absorbing Piccolo as well as Gotenks

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P6.1
Context: Boo thinking to himself, before he absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo
Boo: “…If I just add that squirt’s power and…that ‘Piccolo’ guy’s brains, then…”

He then specifically comments about how he aimed for Gotenks, but that he absorbed Gotenks knowing that it'd secure his throne as the strongest around. Piccolo wasn't mentioned in that specific moment just because his strength wouldn't have been any real factor on its own.

Ah, must have missed that then.

[Tectorman]

I'm not putting much face in this. I'm just also not putting much face in Vegeta versus Trunks, either. I mean, Toriyama including that to illustrate that Trunks exceeds all of Vegeta's expectations of how strong an eight-year-old Saiyan child should be (especially compared to every other eight-year-old Saiyan child that Vegeta's ever encountered, including Gohan back when he was that age), I can totally buy. But you seem to have some pressing need for me to take Vegeta versus Trunks as a legitimate feat, and I just don't see the need.

I just don't understand how this scene can play out the way you say with Vegeta being 2x-3x stronger than him. All fights leading up to this point have clearly demonstrated that this can't be the case.

Two choices.

1) This fight is an outlier, not a representation of two fighters compared to each other as would be found in other fights, subject to nonspecified factors such as luck, fatigue due to training in 150 Gs for an unspecified amount of time prior, power suppressing to gain a benefit out of 150 Gs (where we've seen Vegeta handle twice that already), skill suppressing, cinematic time abuse, the power level differences established over the series being more guidelines that hard-coded laws, or any number of other things.

2) Trunks and Goten, playing together for only a few years (and only playing with each other, so they don't even have the benefit of sparring against multiple different opponents and thereby gaining a wider variety of experience) not only figured out SSJ and got to the barest beginnings of the realm that the more experienced fighters are at (which is already a stupendous achievement), but also are within a mere fraction of those same fighters.

One of those is palatable. The other seemingly invalidates all the hard work, effort, and experience that everyone prior had to earn to get as strong as they are (heck, even Frieza in RoF doesn't do that; he at least started with a high power and has experience fighting multiple different opponents).

So faced with plenty of reason to discount this as a legitimate strength comparison, with plenty of reason to accept it as something else entirely, why would I feel the need to put this under the same lens as other fights?

How many other fights are just a father getting a feel for the first time ever for how strong his son is? How many other fights have the criterion "try to land a single blow on my face"? How many other fights have a trip to the amusement park as the only stake in the battle? How many other fights happen where both participants expect absolutely no offensive action on the part of one of the fighters (neither Trunks nor Vegeta expected Vegeta to hit back)?

Why would I look at any of that and say "Oh hey, this should totally be put under the same scrutiny and assumptions as every other fight in the series"? As opposed to taking it as presented: Trunks surpasses everything his father expects out of an eight-year-old Saiyan child and got as strong as he did, however strong that actually is, entirely without his father's knowledge and all by merely "playing" with his friend Goten. There you go. Scene concluded, moving on.

It's like every high school English book assignment I remember hating. In describing the layout of a room, the author mentions that the curtains were blue. Was he trying to create a visual reminder of the melancholy of the antagonist's inner conflict? Or did he just mean "The curtains are freaking blue"?

If lucky dodges get to be a thing, then lucky hits get to be a thing.

Why? A character who is significantly stronger than another should be able to dodge effectively without it being luck based. Launching a punch is based on it having to connect. If you've thrown a punch you have to make sure you've thrown it wih the intent to connect. If it misses then there is no way to make it connect other than throwing another punch. But dodging is something you will always be able to control.

What the what? Who said anything about a stronger character needing luck to dodge a weaker character?

-> I post that the weak Krillin successfully dodged the powerful Nappa.
-> You post that luck could have been a contributing factor.
-> I agree, on the condition that luck not merely be a contributing factor for dodges alone. The implicit comparison (which I thought obvious, but apparently not) being that since the weak Krillin can dodge the powerful Nappa due to luck, the weak Trunks can hit the powerful Vegeta due to luck.
-> ???
-> Somehow (don't ask me how), strong characters needing luck to dodge weaker characters enters the conversation.

So a character underestimating another character makes it easier for that second character to fight the first character. So Vegeta having little expectations of his son's ability (the entire challenge was one hit to the face; Vegeta considered Trunks's best to maybe-maybe not be enough to equate to one whole hit) makes Trunks's efforts turn out better than otherwise. Gotcha.

No. Underestimating a character allows you to easily be hit by that character. And continual underestimating would also allow that. But after the first attack Vegeta should not be underestimating his son here. The only reason the Ginyu Force continued to is because they relied on their scouters which were saying Goku was weak. For Vegeta who can accurately judge a characters strength based purely on movement this should not be a thing for him against the first few blows of Trunks.

You earlier suggested that Krillin's third hit on Nappa was due to Nappa still being affected by the second hit. This series abuses cinematic time whenever it's convenient (five minutes to blow up Namek, my foot). So what exactly was the time increment between Trunks's first few hits and the one that landed?

So it's exerting effort. All that means is that the effort Vegeta is using is something that Trunks exceeded, so he had to exert more. As I've already said, I don't buy Vegeta's effort shown there as equivalent to the very best that he could do. Trunks pushing what Vegeta showed there is not Trunks pushing Vegeta overall.

I'm sorry. But nobody grunts while using half of their strength. Do you walk into a gym and grunt when you lift a weight you can easily manage? I wouldn't think so. If Vegeta produced an uhn! Here then that would be indicative of him actually trying. Like you would in a gym.

And no one supplements/enhances their physical abilities with their ki, at least not in a manner equivalent to how it works in DBZ. So Vegeta going from no physical exertion to physical exertion is not the same thing as the Vegeta taking a moment to get Trunks's measure being equivalent to Vegeta fighting all out. So Trunks "pushing" that Vegeta is not the same as Trunks actually contending on Vegeta's level.

[Saiga]

But I don't get (nor do I appreciate) your need to bully a change of mind out of me. Why do you need it? What's the point of this browbeating you're trying to do? Why take this offense you seem to be taking at, what?, my unmitigated gall to dare to disagree with you? What, exactly, is my compulsion to knuckle under to any of this?

This isn't bullying at all, nor am I taking offence.

I'm just merely pointing out what I perceive to be the flaws in your reasoning, and explaining that I don't see how you came to that conclusion.

If you're not interested in that, you didn't need to take it as far as you did.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Gotenks started to mess Super Boo up once he got serious so.... a 1.5x gap.

At the same time though, Buu established that he had sensed Gohan, and devised a plan by then to absorb Gotenks and Piccolo, seeing Gohan as the only person that threatened to usurp him as the strongest. So, while it seemed that Gotenks was doing so well, it's just as possible (and likely, given the statements) that Buu just let Gotenks wail on him, knowing that his time limit was almost up.

If buu was stronger he wouldn't need regeneration and almost die. Either he didn't consider gotenks a true surpasser of him because he's temporarily at that power, or he's trying to act tough. because he seamed to try a lot in the fight, but also devised the plan to absorb him when gotenks mentioned his fusion was nearly over when buu was hiding from him in the rocks.

Also more then just gohan and gotenks are above super buu. But he was scared of gohan's rising power and knew he'd come after him.