The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

[Darkprince410]

It's what they do. If you go by dialogue then GOKU>>>>vegeta but by the logic of what's the characters are doing and the facts then- VEGETA>>>Goku to many arrows I know but you get my point. There's evidence for both sides but that's thanks to bad writing,Goku roflstomps buuhan In terms of power.

If I go by facts using the manga, then no, Vegeta is nowhere near Goku's strength either. In terms of dialogue and actual feats, Vegeta falls well short of Goku in terms of strength, and Goku, in turn, is no match for Evil Buu or any of his absorbed evolutions (Gotenks Buu, Gohan Buu, etc). The anime, with all the random filler content, is contradictory to itself, so if you go by the msot valid source, Goku is stronger than Vegeta, and Goku is no match for Gohan Buu or any other forms of Evil Buu. Simple as that.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

It's what they do. If you go by dialogue then GOKU>>>>vegeta but by the logic of what's the characters are doing and the facts then- VEGETA>>>Goku to many arrows I know but you get my point. There's evidence for both sides but that's thanks to bad writing,Goku roflstomps buuhan In terms of power.

If I go by facts using the manga, then no, Vegeta is nowhere near Goku's strength either. In terms of dialogue and actual feats, Vegeta falls well short of Goku in terms of strength, and Goku, in turn, is no match for Evil Buu or any of his absorbed evolutions (Gotenks Buu, Gohan Buu, etc). The anime, with all the random filler content, is contradictory to itself, so if you go by the msot valid source, Goku is stronger than Vegeta, and Goku is no match for Gohan Buu or any other forms of Evil Buu. Simple as that.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with that. I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree again. because I feel kid buu>=buuhan. And Goku>kid buu>gohan>super buu. I know already you disagree but I don't think of fusion as anything other then addition. We can at least agree buu saga wasn't the most clear on power levels,as nobody debates which form of cell or frieza is stronger (accept mecha frieza vs 100% for some)....Good day to you.

[miguelnuva1]

It's what they do. If you go by dialogue then GOKU>>>>vegeta but by the logic of what's the characters are doing and the facts then- VEGETA>>>Goku to many arrows I know but you get my point. There's evidence for both sides but that's thanks to bad writing,Goku roflstomps buuhan In terms of power.

If I go by facts using the manga, then no, Vegeta is nowhere near Goku's strength either. In terms of dialogue and actual feats, Vegeta falls well short of Goku in terms of strength, and Goku, in turn, is no match for Evil Buu or any of his absorbed evolutions (Gotenks Buu, Gohan Buu, etc). The anime, with all the random filler content, is contradictory to itself, so if you go by the msot valid source, Goku is stronger than Vegeta, and Goku is no match for Gohan Buu or any other forms of Evil Buu. Simple as that.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with that. I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree again. because I feel kid buu>=buuhan. And Goku>kid buu>gohan>super buu. I know already you disagree but I don't think of fusion as anything other then addition. We can at least agree buu saga wasn't the most clear on power levels,as nobody debates which form of cell or Freeza is stronger (accept mecha Freeza vs 100% for some)....Good day to you.

Buu saga was very clear your making it complicated.

[rereboy]

I'm sorry but I don't agree with that. I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree again. because I feel kid buu>=buuhan. And Goku>kid buu>gohan>super buu. I know already you disagree but I don't think of fusion as anything other then addition. We can at least agree buu saga wasn't the most clear on power levels,as nobody debates which form of cell or Freeza is stronger (accept mecha Freeza vs 100% for some)....Good day to you.

Goku flat out stated that he and Vegeta would be killed by Super Buu in the manga if they fought him, but ok.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

If I go by facts using the manga, then no, Vegeta is nowhere near Goku's strength either. In terms of dialogue and actual feats, Vegeta falls well short of Goku in terms of strength, and Goku, in turn, is no match for Evil Buu or any of his absorbed evolutions (Gotenks Buu, Gohan Buu, etc). The anime, with all the random filler content, is contradictory to itself, so if you go by the msot valid source, Goku is stronger than Vegeta, and Goku is no match for Gohan Buu or any other forms of Evil Buu. Simple as that.[/quote]


I'm sorry but I don't agree with that. I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree again. because I feel kid buu>=buuhan. And Goku>kid buu>gohan>super buu. I know already you disagree but I don't think of fusion as anything other then addition. We can at least agree buu saga wasn't the most clear on power levels,as nobody debates which form of cell or Freeza is stronger (accept mecha Freeza vs 100% for some)....Good day to you.[/quote]

Buu saga was very clear your making it complicated.[/quote]

If it's very clear why is everyone not on board about fat vs super vs kid buu and gohan vs goku? In cell and frieza's arcs you don't wonder frieza 1rst vs 2nd form. I'm not making anything complicated, if anything is,your random comment is. It's out of nowhere man.

[rereboy]

If it's very clear why is everyone not on board about fat vs super vs kid buu and gohan vs goku? In cell and Freeza's arcs you don't wonder Freeza 1rst vs 2nd form. I'm not making anything complicated, if anything is,your random comment is. It's out of nowhere man.

Because it's unusual for the last villain to be weaker than his own previous versions and because the anime added some anime-exclusive lines to the fight with kid buu making the narrator state that kid buu is the most powerful buu to date, which doesn't exist in the manga.

However, once we get over the weirdness of him being weaker and realize that those anime lines are just filler and instead focus on what is in the manga, it becomes clear to most fans that he isn't the strongest Buu and that he is even weaker than Super Buu.

[buutenks]

Eh,kid buu is weaker because hes the pure buu without any people absorbed.Every other buu had someone absorbed so was obviously more powerful.

Buuhan>buutenks>Buuf Buu>super buu>Fat Buu>/=Gray Buu</=/>Kid Buu>Mr Buu.

Fat buu gray buu and kid buu is a gray area,since i dont know which is stronger exactly since its impossible to tell.We got both gray buu and kid buu beating mr buu up.And fat buu seemd stronger,but then goku shoots this down when he says he could have defeated fat buu and also stating he could kill kid buu if he could reach his full power in ssj3 mode.So IMO they are all 3 in roughly the same area.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Well to me Buu saga is the saga people disagree on most about power levels. That's just one man's observation.
We don't seam to agree on which buu is the strongest, and we can't even agree that buu saga is the least clear in terms of power scalling. All that's fine. But I know we all can agree that we love DragonBall!

[Hitiro]

Well to me Buu saga is the saga people disagree on most about power levels. That's just one man's observation.
We don't seam to agree on which buu is the strongest, and we can't even agree that buu saga is the least clear in terms of power scalling. All that's fine. But I know we all can agree that we love DragonBall!

There really isn't anything wrong with the power scaling during the Boo saga unless you're using the anime. The manga makes it pretty clear that Evil Boo is superior. The real issues in the manga during this saga are character induced stupidity for the most part. Like Goku and the others not questioning why Gohan wasn't "resurrected" when the dragon balls were used shortly after Goku, Piccolo and Kuririn get to the lookout.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Well to me Buu saga is the saga people disagree on most about power levels. That's just one man's observation.
We don't seam to agree on which buu is the strongest, and we can't even agree that buu saga is the least clear in terms of power scalling. All that's fine. But I know we all can agree that we love DragonBall!

There really isn't anything wrong with the power scaling during the Boo saga unless you're using the anime. The manga makes it pretty clear that Evil Boo is superior. The real issues in the manga during this saga are character induced stupidity for the most part. Like Goku and the others not questioning why Gohan wasn't "resurrected" when the dragon balls were used shortly after Goku, Piccolo and Kuririn get to the lookout.

Gohan beats super buu, gives all his energy to the spirit bomb and goku says it isn't enough to kil kid buu even though it's mixed with even MROE power......that's all manga stuff my friend.

[Darkprince410]

Gohan beats super buu, gives all his energy to the spirit bomb and goku says it isn't enough to kil kid buu even though it's mixed with even MROE power......that's all manga stuff my friend.

Again, Gohan, and everyone else that donated, only donated their GENKI to the Genki Dama, not their entire ki. This is one single aspect/element that makes up ki, out of a myriad of different elements, so all that Goku's comment means is that Gohan's genki isn't enough to extinguish Buu's entire ki. Goku even specifically asks for people to donate their genki when he tries to get the people of the Earth to donate.

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P12.3
Goku: “Everyone! Give me as much genki as you possibly can! Please!”

So, it's just his genki that he's contributing, not his genki, shouki, yuuki, etc. Therefore, Goku's statement doesn't mean, in the slightest, that Gohan himself is weaker than Buu, simply that his genki wasn't enough to extinguish Buu's full ki.

[Tsufuru]

so i re-read both fights and gohan seemed to have less trouble than gotenks.

and i dont think you can even tell by those fights becouse it seemed mystic gohan was not serios at all.
while gotenks's behavoir has nothing to do if he fights seriosly or not.

and some ppl realy should stick to the manga and stop using filler becouse the way the manga puts things change with filler.

[Desassina]

Again, Gohan, and everyone else that donated, only donated their GENKI to the Genki Dama, not their entire ki. This is one single aspect/element that makes up ki, out of a myriad of different elements, so all that Goku's comment means is that Gohan's genki isn't enough to extinguish Buu's entire ki. Goku even specifically asks for people to donate their genki when he tries to get the people of the Earth to donate.

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P12.3
Goku: “Everyone! Give me as much genki as you possibly can! Please!”

So, it's just his genki that he's contributing, not his genki, shouki, yuuki, etc. Therefore, Goku's statement doesn't mean, in the slightest, that Gohan himself is weaker than Buu, simply that his genki wasn't enough to extinguish Buu's full ki.

Well, Kibitoshin said that he had used up all of his stamina, and Goku needed to have his restored by Porunga. When the latter did it, Goku increased his power to that of a SSJ, when he couldn't before, so it's not like Genki and Ki are untied, or else Goku would have some power left.

[Darkprince410]

Well, Kibitoshin said that he had used up all of his stamina, and Goku needed to have his restored by Porunga. When the latter did it, Goku increased his power to that of a SSJ, when he couldn't before, so it's not like Genki and Ki are untied, or else Goku would have some power left.

Genki is still simply a single element of ki, with there being several other elements that make up ki as well. Genki is simply just the vitality aspect of it, which is why donating a large portion of one's genki would leave them feeling extremely exhausted and fatigued. There are so many other elements that make it up, that Gohan's genki can be below that of Buu's entire ki, but Gohan's entire ki (with his genki, yuuki, shouki, etc) would easily be able to destroy Buu.

[Desassina]

No, that's not it.

Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P9.1
Context: Dende asks Kaioshin to teleport him to go heal Goku
Kaioshin: “So-sorry…I used up my stamina just now [when he contributed to the Genki-Dama]…Until I recover, I can’t teleport…”

Stamina is Genki in this case. SSJ3 dropped Goku's stamina to the point where he powered down (lost his Ki) and reverted to base. He was allowed to transform into SSJ and increase his Ki again, but only because his stamina was restored. It's as simple as that.

Edit: Genki puts a cap on Ki, and not the other way around. You use as much power as your body can take, and if Gohan offered most of his Genki, then it represented a power ceiling for him.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Spirit bomb takes energy, daizenshuu stuff doesn't count,its non canon.

[Sandubadear]

Spirit bomb takes energy, daizenshuu stuff doesn't count,its non canon.

Spirit Bomb = Genki Dama. It takes Genki.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Spirit bomb takes energy, daizenshuu stuff doesn't count,its non canon.

Spirit Bomb = Genki Dama. It takes Genki.

It takes energy.

[Desassina]

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta, you're not helping by going "nuh-uh" on people. Genki = stamina = energy, it's all the same thing, just like power would be Ki.

[Darkprince410]

Spirit bomb takes energy, daizenshuu stuff doesn't count,its non canon.

Goku's quote about specifically requesting genki came from the manga, and ki having several different elements came from Toriyama's own statement within the Super Exciting Guide.

Edit: Genki puts a cap on Ki, and not the other way around. You use up as much power as your body can take it, and if Gohan offered most of his Genki, then it represented as power ceiling for him.

Toriyama's description of the elements of ki suggests that it's not like that. All the different elements of ki come together to determine an individual's total ki level, and reducing one amount is going to reduce their entire ki level as a result. Likewise, not everyone's ki elements are going to be proportionally equal to one another, so just because Kibitoshin being drained of his genki hurt him so much doesn't mean that Gohan necessarily would.