Does this Guide say no one before Beers is FTL? [No]

[Helios518]

What Cipher is saying is that if "faster than light" doesn't equate to what "faster than light" means in real life, then what's the use of using the term in the first place? It's meaningless. If you're cherry picking real-world science to use, then it ultimately has no meaning. You can't use physics to explain why a character can do a thing, when physics also dictate that that thing is impossible. It's a fallacy. You're picking and choosing what rules to follow.

Thanks, now I know what Cipher meant. So how would you go about someones speed when comparing franchises?

[Kamiccolo9]

What Cipher is saying is that if "faster than light" doesn't equate to what "faster than light" means in real life, then what's the use of using the term in the first place? It's meaningless. If you're cherry picking real-world science to use, then it ultimately has no meaning. You can't use physics to explain why a character can do a thing, when physics also dictate that that thing is impossible. It's a fallacy. You're picking and choosing what rules to follow.

Thanks, now I know what Cipher meant. So how would you go about someones speed when comparing franchises?

There's no easy way to answer that. It depends on the franchise. They don't all operate under the same rules, and some are better at defining what those rules are than others.

[Cipher]

Thanks, now I know what Cipher meant. So how would you go about someones speed when comparing franchises?

I've never been into that and don't think there's a great way to do it, especially considering how much of Dragon Ball runs on comparisons between its characters that may not have accompanying visual indicators (how do we know Cell is stronger than Freeza? Because he beats opponents stronger than Freeza), but there's nothing wrong with saying, "Well, Whis travels across half the (Dragon World) universe in X time" without trying to bring real science into it.

Of course, like Kamiccolo9 said, it's all arbitrary and nothing's designed with those cross-franchise comparisons in mind.

[Blackstripe]

Of course, like Kamiccolo9 said, it's all arbitrary and nothing's designed with those cross-franchise comparisons in mind.

I get what you're saying, but as you yourself have noted, "speed of light" as it is most often use on these and other message boards really just means 299,792,458 m/s.

That IS the speed that light travels at, and it's easier to say "Beerus is billions of times faster than light", IE 299,792,458 m/s, than actually adding it all up into an absurdly garish number that will just cause everyone to go cross eyed. No, infinite mass doesn't come into the picture, but "light speed" here is being used as a simple unit of measurement rather than an aspect of physics. It's not scientifically accurate, but it is convenient.

I thought that was kind of obvious...

[MisterGuyMan]

FTL is a useful benchmark because its a constant and the fastest thing in real life. It's definitely not arbitrary. Fiction doesn't have to follow all laws of physics.

[Cipher]

FTL is a useful benchmark because its a constant and the fastest thing in real life. It's definitely not arbitrary. Fiction doesn't have to follow all laws of physics.

"Are they faster than a really fast thing?" isn't really useful without other hard numbers, though?

I don't know; I'll never understand this.

Also, I feel like every time I've seen it, it's been presented along the lines of, "Well, they're faster than light, so they can do {X scientifically inaccurate thing that involves a lack of understanding of the speed of light}," rather than just looking to quantify speed (which involves a ton of presumptions about scale in that universe), but whatever.

[Blackstripe]

Also, I feel like every time I've seen it, it's been presented along the lines of, "Well, they're faster than light, so they can do {X scientifically inaccurate thing that involves a lack of understanding of the speed of light}," rather than just looking to quantify speed (which involves a ton of presumptions about scale in that universe), but whatever.

Heh, I've seen that plenty too. It is rather dumb when they try and pull that crap, though I find it more amusing than irritating. As for presumptions about the universe...

Well, we know that "even just one galaxy is ridiculously vast" and that there are "tons of galaxies in the universe". So we know that the Dragon Ball universe is pretty damn big, and not something you could effectively traverse at subluminal speeds. So if Whis can go from one end to the other in about thirty minutes, he's got to be clocking in at many billions of times C.

[Helios518]

FTL is a useful benchmark because its a constant and the fastest thing in real life. It's definitely not arbitrary. Fiction doesn't have to follow all laws of physics.

"Are they faster than a really fast thing?" isn't really useful without other hard numbers, though?

I don't know; I'll never understand this.

Also, I feel like every time I've seen it, it's been presented along the lines of, "Well, they're faster than light, so they can do {X scientifically inaccurate thing that involves a lack of understanding of the speed of light}," rather than just looking to quantify speed (which involves a ton of presumptions about scale in that universe), but whatever.

It's hard to understand fiction especially when you got things like Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann in it, who's said to be 52.8 billion light years tall in a guidebook.

Spoiler:

[MisterGuyMan]

"Are they faster than a really fast thing?" isn't really useful without other hard numbers, though?

I don't know; I'll never understand this.

Also, I feel like every time I've seen it, it's been presented along the lines of, "Well, they're faster than light, so they can do {X scientifically inaccurate thing that involves a lack of understanding of the speed of light}," rather than just looking to quantify speed (which involves a ton of presumptions about scale in that universe), but whatever.

1. I don't understand your first point. The speed of light is a hard number. It's a constant. Compare saying Goku ks FTL vs Gotents can spin around the planet 8 times really fast. Obviously the FTL comment is easier to define. That's why its used. Speed of Sound is another one. Bullet catching is a benchmark. This isn't just for light. Fans just like quantifiable figures.

2. Are you referring to applying IMPs to everything?

[Speedster]

You don't need to have fancy or different laws of physics to travel FTL. You just need a universe where classical/Newtonian mechanics don't break down close to the speed of light. Classical mechanics are pretty much valid up to speeds that are about 10% the speed of light. The problem is that in our real universe when you accelerate a particle close to the speed of light the extra kinetic energy that you supply instead of resulting to an increase in speed (as you would expect by classical mechanics) it results to an increase in mass. It turns out that if you are to accelerate a particle of non-zero rest mass to the speed of light you will need to supply infinite energy! That is why it is impossible to travel faster than light in a relativistic universe (i.e. our real universe).

In a fictional universe however it is perfectly possible Newtonian mechanics to be applicable all the way. So as long as you keep increasing your kinetic energy you keep accelerating at the same rate. It is worth noting that you can convert FTL Newtonian speeds into relativistic speeds. If a character in a Newtonian universe can propel themselves to travel to a speed FTL i.e. v>c (c=3x10^8m/s) then given their own rest mass m you can calculate their Newtonian kinetic energy E (=0.5*m*v^2) which of course will be finite. Then you can calculate their speed U had the universe been relativistic (where the kinetic energy is calculated by E=mc^2*(γ-1) where γ=(1-U^2/c^2)^(-0.5)). U will of course be smaller than c.

[Zephyr]

You don't need to have fancy or different laws of physics to travel FTL. You just need a universe where classical/Newtonian mechanics don't break down close to the speed of light.

So we don't need different laws of physics....we just need different laws of physics?

[Gonstead]

You don't need to have fancy or different laws of physics to travel FTL. You just need a universe where classical/Newtonian mechanics don't break down close to the speed of light.

You just contradicted yourself right there.

[Kid Buu]

You don't need to have fancy or different laws of physics to travel FTL. You just need a universe where classical/Newtonian mechanics don't break down close to the speed of light. Classical mechanics are pretty much valid up to speeds that are about 10% the speed of light. The problem is that in our real universe when you accelerate a particle close to the speed of light the extra kinetic energy that you supply instead of resulting to an increase in speed (as you would expect by classical mechanics) it results to an increase in mass. It turns out that if you are to accelerate a particle of non-zero rest mass to the speed of light you will need to supply infinite energy! That is why it is impossible to travel faster than light in a relativistic universe (i.e. our real universe).

In a fictional universe however it is perfectly possible Newtonian mechanics to be applicable all the way. So as long as you keep increasing your kinetic energy you keep accelerating at the same rate. It is worth noting that you can convert FTL Newtonian speeds into relativistic speeds. If a character in a Newtonian universe can propel themselves to travel to a speed FTL i.e. v>c (c=3x10^8m/s) then given their own rest mass m you can calculate their Newtonian kinetic energy E (=0.5*m*v^2) which of course will be finite. Then you can calculate their speed U had the universe been relativistic (where the kinetic energy is calculated by E=mc^2*(γ-1) where γ=(1-U^2/c^2)^(-0.5)). U will of course be smaller than c.

I really doubt any of the writers thought about these things to that extent when they wrote this.

[Blackstripe]

I really doubt any of the writers thought about these things to that extent when they wrote this.

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind about that.

Given what happened with Gotenks in episode 22 of Super, I think it's abundantly clear that Toei is in fact incapable of telling basic time, never mind comprehending Newtonian mechanics.

[Speedster]

You don't need to have fancy or different laws of physics to travel FTL. You just need a universe where classical/Newtonian mechanics don't break down close to the speed of light.

You just contradicted yourself right there.

No I did not contradict anything. Perhaps you need to pay more attention next time. All I said is that you do not need a fancy set of physics laws or some kind of magic to describe motions FTL. We already have a great set of physics laws that we use all the time - the classical set- and with it FTL speeds are perfectly possible. As a matter of fact relativity is very rarely used for anything of practical significance. Instead we use classical physics - we even designed and we keep designing spaceships and satellites with it that we send into space, calculate planetary trajectories, design bridges and buildings, electromagnetic telecommunications, circuits and so on. Even a large portion of quantum mechanics do not make use of the theory of relativity. And with quantum mechanics we build transistors and computers.

Relativity is a separate independent theory with its own set of rules and axioms. The speed of light being the cosmic speed boundary is an assumption first made by Albert Einstein when devising his special theory of relativity. It is an assumption that is constantly being tested. That is why finding neutrinos breaking the speed of light was such a big deal a few years ago. Of course it turned out to be an experimental mistake made by the scientists who contacted the experiment but had it been true the theory of relativity would break down. Axioms are constantly being verified experimentally to be true under any condition for the theory to be valid but even if some axioms break down under certain conditions the theory can be amended and still be perfectly valid under a smaller scope. In Newtonian mechanics the Newton’s second law of F=m*a=m*dv/dt breaks down close to the speed of light. Of course the same law can be re-written as F=dp/dt=d(m*v)/dt ---- F=m*a is just an approximation of it when speeds are much smaller than c in which case the mass could be considered as constant.

Anyway my original point was that you do not need a fancy new set of different laws or magic to explain FTL speeds. You just need a universe totally governed by classical physics. If anything what actually happens in the real universe with the theory of relativity where the mass increases, the length contracts and the flow of time stops when you travel close to the speed of light can be considered as a conditional “anomaly”.

[irreality]

I really doubt any of the writers thought about these things to that extent when they wrote this.

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind about that.

Given what happened with Gotenks in episode 22 of Super, I think it's abundantly clear that Toei is in fact incapable of telling basic time, never mind comprehending Newtonian mechanics.

5 minutes until the destruction of Namek, anyone? We really don't need to reach to DBS.

I find it far more plausible that Gotenks was just staring at himself in the mirror for 25 minutes, quite honestly. They just wanted Goten and Trunks to be present and not have them be able to be Gotenks and take over all the fights.

[Blackstripe]

I find it far more plausible that Gotenks was just staring at himself in the mirror for 25 minutes, quite honestly. They just wanted Goten and Trunks to be present and not have them be able to be Gotenks and take over all the fights.

I considered that, too, but then realized it was impossible. When Tagoma powers up, that is when Goten and Trunks - still unfused - notice his power. We then see a relatively brief fight between Tagoma and the Z-senshi. There's just no way 25 minutes could have passed in that time.

[Helios518]

I really doubt any of the writers thought about these things to that extent when they wrote this.

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind about that.

Given what happened with Gotenks in episode 22 of Super, I think it's abundantly clear that Toei is in fact incapable of telling basic time, never mind comprehending Newtonian mechanics.

5 minutes until the destruction of Namek, anyone? We really don't need to reach to DBS.

I find it far more plausible that Gotenks was just staring at himself in the mirror for 25 minutes, quite honestly. They just wanted Goten and Trunks to be present and not have them be able to be Gotenks and take over all the fights.

I never had a problem with the 5 minutes on Namek because I always assumed they're fighting at high speeds that it would feel longer than 5 minutes. Remember Jackie Chun and Krillin's 1 second fight?

[irreality]

Yeah, that is how I explain it in my head. But they, like, *talk* for more than 5 minutes. Freeza and Goku aren't valley girls, I assume they talk like normal people.

A "brief" fight onscreen could have lasted 25 minutes, anyway: it might not all have been shown. I still think it is just a stylistic choice: they wanted Gotenks to not be an issue, so get the transformation over an done with.

[Helios518]

Yeah, that is how I explain it in my head. But they, like, *talk* for more than 5 minutes. Freeza and Goku aren't valley girls, I assume they talk like normal people.

A "brief" fight onscreen could have lasted 25 minutes, anyway: it might not all have been shown. I still think it is just a stylistic choice: they wanted Gotenks to not be an issue, so get the transformation over an done with.

I don't see why they can't talk very fast, there's been times while they talked while fighting.