Regarding the Pure Boo > Gohan and the Genki Argument.

[Speedster]

At least in the anime, while ignoring the process, we are given the end result of "Pure Buu being the strongest Buu ever" and we can accept it with a "thus they declared". I mean, isn't it more honest to say that you value the anime's word here and you see no reason for anime and manga to differ regardless of what the guidebooks may imply otherwise?

The guidebooks that were published at the time (the Daizenshuus) have verbal statements implying or flat out stating that Goku is the strongest. As for multipliers the only one given was the 50x multiplier for SSJ1 (which was openly disputed by Toriyama mind you). The other 2 transformations were not assigned a value, neither were said to be fixed multipliers. All that is needed is a non-static SSJ3 multiplier (and actually in one guidebook it was stated that SSJ3 pushes a Saiyan to his limits) and/or Goku to have improved during his fight with kid Buu. Actually if you look at Vegeta's respect speech which goes on about how Goku has always pushed his limits suggests that Goku might have actually pushed his limits at that very moment by improving (or discovering new heights to SSJ3) during the fight in order to meet up the new challenege like he always does.

The only thing that is in contradiction is not actually in the original guidebooks. It is the fan-made numerical power levels and the fan-made math logic about supposed required percentile differences in strength. A fan-made math-logic that is constantly in tatters and that was never free of contradictions to begin with. Not only does it fail completely to explain a single thing from what happens in DB Super but it pretty much fails since the Saiyan arc and needs gross assumptions, logic bending and quite a few things to be ignored in order to somewhat fit someone's headcanons. And am I supposed to follow a 2009 guidebook giving fixed multipliers to SSJ2 and SSJ3 and the fan-made math logic (which is completely trashed in all the new material) and conclude that Gohan is 10s or 100s times stronger than Goku, despite literally everything that came out as source material (manga and anime) since the appearance of kid Buu either implies or directly states the opposite?

[dragonballer]

Goku fought Oob in Base form without getting overwhelmed. This merely shows that Oob is a good match for Base Goku. What if Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan instead? Wouldn't look like such a close fight, then, would it? None of this needs to have anything to do with Gohan or Gotenks because they're simply not apart of the equation.

in my headcanon goku was "mystic" goku at the end of z,since the base form was something like the new full power ssj introduced by gohan,goku may have dropped his ssj forms in his 10 years training.

or that or goku became 400x stronger in 10 years and was very sure he could make uub become 400x stronger (back then we didn't have 4 month special training.)

[LowRyder2005]

At least in the anime, while ignoring the process, we are given the end result of "Pure Buu being the strongest Buu ever" and we can accept it with a "thus they declared". I mean, isn't it more honest to say that you value the anime's word here and you see no reason for anime and manga to differ regardless of what the guidebooks may imply otherwise?

The guidebooks that were published at the time (the Daizenshuus) have verbal statements implying or flat out stating that Goku is the strongest. As for multipliers the only one given was the 50x multiplier for SSJ1 (which was openly disputed by Toriyama mind you). The other 2 transformations were not assigned a value, neither were said to be fixed multipliers. All that is needed is a non-static SSJ3 multiplier (and actually in one guidebook it was stated that SSJ3 pushes a Saiyan to his limits) and/or Goku to have improved during his fight with kid Buu. Actually if you look at Vegeta's respect speech which goes on about how Goku has always pushed his limits suggests that Goku might have actually pushed his limits at that very moment by improving (or discovering new heights to SSJ3) during the fight in order to meet up the new challenege like he always does.

The only thing that is in contradiction is not actually in the original guidebooks. It is the fan-made numerical power levels and the fan-made math logic about supposed required percentile differences in strength. A fan-made math-logic that is constantly in tatters and that was never free of contradictions to begin with. Not only does it fail completely to explain a single thing from what happens in DB Super but it pretty much fails since the Saiyan arc and needs gross assumptions, logic bending and quite a few things to be ignored in order to somewhat fit someone's headcanons. And am I supposed to follow a 2009 guidebook giving fixed multipliers to SSJ2 and SSJ3 and the fan-made math logic (which is completely trashed in all the new material) and conclude that Gohan is 10s or 100s times stronger than Goku, despite literally everything that came out as source material (manga and anime) since the appearance of kid Buu either implies or directly states the opposite?

What would those statements be, specifically?

In any way, I believe you do understand that the Gotenks issue would persist whatever multiplier you applied as long as you applied it to both Goku and Gotenks, right? Be it a *50, *60 or *80.
Everyone felt Buu's power (or at least Goku's SS3), and everyone implies that Super Saiyan Gotenks has the sheer strenght to take on Buu, or that he'd be at least a formidable foe for the demon simply by going Super Saiyan. How can you justify it narratively if Super Saiyan Gotenks was even weaker or on a par Super Saiyan Gohan at the Cell Game, whom couldn't even beat Cell? It would mean that Cell and Fat Buu are or are perceived to be about the same strenght, or in the same tier, but we've already seen Fat Buu manhandling a Cell equivalent and there's no reason to believe that everyone suddenly can't feel ki properly.

Regarding the relationship between Toriyama and the multipliers I wouldn't even say he "questioned it", he simply stated that at some point he had forgot that he had written the gap as a *50 and had envisioned it as *10 in general (but, honestly, it barely matters, since in the manga there's not even a single important fight in which the characters fight untrasformed after the Namek Saga).

[Kaboom]

If I may premiere a new image macro of mine...



As far as the original story in the manga's concerned, Gohan ends up stronger than Goku. There's no debate to be had about it. It doesn't take much reading comprehension skills at all to go through the story and connect the dots along the way. One form of Boo was too strong for Goku to fight. Gohan smacked the pink out of that same form of Boo. Gohan > Evil Boo > Goku. Badabing. Written for 12-year-olds.

In their never-ending quest to suck Goku off, Toei said and typically still says differently in the animated version of the story, despite also keeping everything to the contrary and thus ending up self-contradictory because of it. If someone chooses to go with their convoluted version of things, which the all-inclusive guidebooks sometimes have to appease, then that's their prerogative and problem. But there's no rewriting or denying what the original manga says until the day we get an irreconcilable "word of god" retcon straight from Toriyama himself.



Okay? Done? Because "Inane Gohan Vs Goku Non-Debate #567,285,104" is not what this thread was intended to be about. It was about the mechanics of how and why Gohan's contribution to the Spirit Bomb wasn't enough to defeat Pure Boo on its own, despite the appropriate assumption that Gohan himself is much stronger than Pure Boo.

If this thread is going to continue, then it'll be on that topic.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That's pretty much where it should've ended.

All of the "Goku lied to protect Vegeta's feelings, Genki-Dama with Gohan's energy isn't enough, Goku said the universe was over if he didn't win" is just making it more complicated than it needs to be. There's also Gohan's dormant ability being much greater than Goku's. In the Boo saga, all of that and far more is unleashed through Old Kaioshin's ritual. Honestly, Goku being stronger than Gohan goes against everything we're shown entirely.

[Speedster]

One form of Boo was too strong for Goku to fight. Gohan smacked the pink out of that same form of Boo. Gohan > Evil Boo > Goku. Badabing. Written for 12-year-olds.

If WE go out like THIS. Goku said about the same thing for Kid Buu’s attack to destroy the Earth. That “It is too much and WE can't stop it”. And it can't be that the attack had any special super-duper amplification factor as we saw SSJ Vegeta taking out a smaller version of the exact same attack with a relatively casual single Ki-blast of his own. Given that later SSJ3 Goku was shown to be on par with kid Buu why he didn't transform into SSJ3 to fire a Kamehameha and stop the blast from destroying the Earth? So either for some reason he wasn’t counting his SSJ3 form during both of these similar statements or at the time he was weaker than Kid Buu in a similar way he was supposedly weaker against base Super Buu a few moment earlier. And then against kid Buu he pushed his SSJ3 to newer heights and surpassed everyone.

In their never-ending quest to suck Goku off, Toei said and typically still says differently in the animated version of the story despite also keeping everything to the contrary and thus ending up self-contradictory because of it.

Toei never had any qualms contradicting their own filler in favour of anything that Toriyama came up afterwards. We saw it with hell, we saw it with the dragonballs, we saw it plenty of times. Yet BoGs which takes place 6 months plus "some time" afterwards (and with Goku not training full time or ideally as he was "farmo-training") continues to support what they said in the Buu arc. That Goku>Gohan.

It was about the mechanics of how and why Gohan's contribution to the Spirit Bomb wasn't enough to defeat Pure Boo on its own, despite the appropriate assumption that Gohan himself is much stronger than Pure Boo.

But the issue arises from that very dubious assumption of Gohan>Goku during the kid Buu saga and. There is no issue at all when you accept the opposite and hence put Gohan<Pure Buu. But yeah let’s create a “theory” supporting that Gohan>>Kid Buu while at the same time the Genki Dama that had Gohan’s own power was insufficient to beat kid Buu”. Let's say that while everyone else contributed the maximum they could, Gohan just gave 1% or 10%. Because this truly makes 100% sense.

[Kaboom]

The thread was created and operating under the sound and steadfast assumption that Gohan is stronger than Goku and Pure Boo. it doesn't matter if you agree with that or not, and either way it's not the place to have the ten kajillionth pointless debate about it. If you're not going to contribute to the intended purpose of the thread, then consider not posting in it at all.

[Lord Beerus]

If I may premiere a new image macro of mine...

.

Beautiful. Simply beautiful.



Do you mind if I save and use this image for whenever any debates about Super/Evil Boo's power in relation to Goku, Gohan, Kid/Pure Boo or any other possible top tier character in Dragon Ball in Majin Boo portion of the story crop up?

[Speedster]

The thread was created and operating under the sound and steadfast assumption that Gohan is stronger than Goku and Pure Boo. If you're not going to contribute to the intended purpose of the thread, then consider not posting in it at all.

The OP clearly says that while his assumption is that Super Buu>Pure Buu and hence Gohan>Pure Buu, this whole Genki Dama situation doesn't quite add up and makes him wonder whether the assumption is in fact wrong. Then the OP (who knows better his own intentions about his thread than anyone) posted a couple of other arguments/statements for events that happen in the kid Buu saga and after which indeed support that since the appearance of kid Buu there was a never any hint of Gohan being considered stronger than him or Goku after/during that fight (see Uub, Genki Dama, Goku suggesting bringing BOTH Gotenks AND Gohan to fight, Daizenshuu statements that Goku is the strongest, etc). The discussion was about those points until the Super Buu side couldn't handle it and resorted to bring up (even in image format!) the statement of Goku in the innards of Super Buu and kick start the off-topic old debate about what happened then.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

For someone who often believes a group of guys would be useless against someone far more powerful, I'd like to think Goku's suggestion of bringing Gohan and Gotenks implies they're strong enough to at least fight with Kid Boo.

[dragonballer]

For someone who often believes a group of guys would be useless against someone far more powerful, I'd like to think Goku's suggestion of bringing Gohan and Gotenks implies they're strong enough to at least fight with Kid Boo.

note that kid buu's regeneration is far away superior than any other buus,maybe goku's charged combo and genki-dama were the only ways to finish him.

[Kamiccolo9]

For someone who often believes a group of guys would be useless against someone far more powerful, I'd like to think Goku's suggestion of bringing Gohan and Gotenks implies they're strong enough to at least fight with Kid Boo.

note that kid buu's regeneration is far away superior than any other buus,

Based on what? He doesn't do anything that we haven't seen any of the other Buus do.

[dragonballer]

For someone who often believes a group of guys would be useless against someone far more powerful, I'd like to think Goku's suggestion of bringing Gohan and Gotenks implies they're strong enough to at least fight with Kid Boo.

note that kid buu's regeneration is far away superior than any other buus,

Based on what? He doesn't do anything that we haven't seen any of the other Buus do.

based on the manga.super buu's regeneration was enough to gotenks performe another attack while goku destroyed kid buu's half body but he went back to normal faster than ssj3's running speed.

[Darkprince410]

based on the manga.super buu's regeneration was enough to gotenks performe another attack while goku destroyed kid buu's half body but he went back to normal faster than ssj3's running speed.

That doesn't actually indicate that the regeneration is faster though. We've seen that regeneration is at least partially a conscious process, and not something done solely automatically. During the attacks Gotenks performed on Buu to where he didn't regenerate immediately from them was more telling that he didn't attempt to regenerate (for one reason or another) immediately after he could, rather than that his regeneration was simply poorer.

From everything we were shown, their speed of regeneration is the same, regardless of the form.

[dragonballer]

based on the manga.super buu's regeneration was enough to gotenks performe another attack while goku destroyed kid buu's half body but he went back to normal faster than ssj3's running speed.

That doesn't actually indicate that the regeneration is faster though. We've seen that regeneration is at least partially a conscious process, and not something done solely automatically. During the attacks Gotenks performed on Buu to where he didn't regenerate immediately from them was more telling that he didn't attempt to regenerate (for one reason or another) immediately after he could, rather than that his regeneration was simply poorer.

From everything we were shown, their speed of regeneration is the same, regardless of the form.

super buu is very prideful,he was mad because gotenks fooled him with those ghost,so there was no reason he would delay his regeneration and let gotenks and piccolo burn him.

kid buu,on the other hand,never gave chance to goku to deal with his pieces because he was back too fast. goku even commented about how he was surprised by the fact that kid buu's stamina wasn't going down despite he had seen other buus fighting and regenerating.

[Darkprince410]

super buu is very prideful,he was mad because gotenks fooled him with those ghost,so there was no reason he would delay his regeneration and let gotenks and piccolo burn him.

kid buu,on the other hand,never gave chance to goku to deal with his pieces because he was back too fast. goku even commented about how he was surprised by the fact that kid buu's stamina wasn't going down despite he had seen other buus fighting and regenerating.

He didn't consider Gotenks a credible threat in his Ssj form. Even though he showed Buu that he had the capacity to blow him apart, the moment Buu regenerated the first time, he simply laid there sipping on a soda and reading a magazine. That shows how unconcerned he truly was when it came to Gotenks, and why he wouldn't have felt the need to regenerate quickly if he didn't want to.

As for Goku's comments about Pure Buu, none of that says that Pure Buu's stamina or regeneration is better than the other Buus, just that his own actions and approach to fighting Buu weren't enough to counter Buu's stamina or regeneration.

[DanielSSJ]

Do you mind if I use this? It'll save me a lot of typing in the future.

[dragonballer]

super buu is very prideful,he was mad because gotenks fooled him with those ghost,so there was no reason he would delay his regeneration and let gotenks and piccolo burn him.

kid buu,on the other hand,never gave chance to goku to deal with his pieces because he was back too fast. goku even commented about how he was surprised by the fact that kid buu's stamina wasn't going down despite he had seen other buus fighting and regenerating.

He didn't consider Gotenks a credible threat in his Ssj form. Even though he showed Buu that he had the capacity to blow him apart, the moment Buu regenerated the first time, he simply laid there sipping on a soda and reading a magazine. That shows how unconcerned he truly was when it came to Gotenks, and why he wouldn't have felt the need to regenerate quickly if he didn't want to.

As for Goku's comments about Pure Buu, none of that says that Pure Buu's stamina or regeneration is better than the other Buus, just that his own actions and approach to fighting Buu weren't enough to counter Buu's stamina or regeneration.

even he didn't consider gotenks a threat there was no reason for him to delay his regeneration,since we see he was angry when he was finally back. about the drink gag scene,we saw a painel where super buu was trying to restore himself,if he wanted to recover,why he didn't do it at once? then when he was back to normal he saw how ridiculous gotenks was dealing with his ghosts and then decided to mock on him.

about goku's comments,although he didn't compared kid buu with others buus,he said that as if it was new information buu's stamina not going down.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku must've assumed his Super Saiyan 3 power would've been enough to deplete Kid Boo's Chi or something. This just means he overrated himself a bit because even Vegito didn't decrease Boo's stamina.

[Darkprince410]

even he didn't consider gotenks a threat there was no reason for him to delay his regeneration,since we see he was angry when he was finally back. about the drink gag scene,we saw a painel where super buu was trying to restore himself,if he wanted to recover,why he didn't do it at once? then when he was back to normal he saw how ridiculous gotenks was dealing with his ghosts and then decided to mock on him.

about goku's comments,although he didn't compared kid buu with others buus,he said that as if it was new information buu's stamina not going down.

I just looked through, and there's not one panel showing Buu actually trying to regenerate beforehand. He's just staying in that "crippled" state the entire time, with no indication or suggestion he's actually attempting to regenerate there. It'd be one thing if we saw panels during the course of his "crippled" state where he was pulling himself back together, but there's no actual indication of that.

Even if he wasn't likely faking it, that's not saying anything about his regenerative speed. That's just saying that he didn't start regenerating until later. The regenerative speed is the same, just the desire to regenerate isn't, which says nothing about the efficiency of the regeneration process itself.

As Turlast commented, all that Goku's comment about Buu's stamina was about was that he expected to be able to put a dent in it with his strength, not that it was something different than what he had seen in the other forms of Buu. He was hoping he could make some more headway with the approach he was taking to fight Buu, but his comment indicated he realized he couldn't. Again, nothing to do with Pure Buu's stamina or regeneration being more efficient than the others.