Vegetto "possibly" stronger than SSJ4?

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I remember in DBGT (I believe it was against Bebi??) that Kaioshin said merging wouldn't be enough to take him down. But in the DBGT animanga it says :

Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!


Shouldn't DBGT itself give us a clear answer that Vegetto was inferior to SSJ4?

[Captain Strawberry]

The main issue is that Goku's base is as strong as Buu in GT. There are just inconsistency in GT power-levels IMO. If Vegeta finally becomes on par with Goku than does that mean his base is also as strong as Buu, it's kinda hard to believe if his base is that strong.

Vegito is pretty strong, I think Vegito in the Buu arc is as strong or stronger than SSJ4 Goku.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

The main issue is that Goku's base is as strong as Buu in GT. There are just inconsistency in GT power-levels IMO. If Vegeta finally becomes on par with Goku than does that mean his base is also as strong as Buu, it's kinda hard to believe if his base is that strong.

Vegito is pretty strong, I think Vegito in the Buu arc is as strong or stronger than SSJ4 Goku.

To be fair though, Goku was already fighting Oob in base at the end of Z. So it was based off that likely.

[Kaboom]

I suspect the idea behind that bit was that we never saw the full extent of Super Vegetto's power, because he didn't need all of it to beat Boo. So for all we know, his maximum could even be stronger than SS4 Goku.

[Captain Strawberry]

I suspect the idea behind that bit was that we never saw the full extent of Super Vegetto's power, because he didn't need all of it to beat Boo. So for all we know, his maximum could even be stronger than SS4 Goku.

IMO, the power scaling of GT is Super Buu absorption tier to Vegito tier which is still pretty high.

[Darkprince410]

I remember in DBGT (I believe it was against Bebi??) that Kaioshin said merging wouldn't be enough to take him down. But in the DBGT animanga it says :

It's kind of hard for Vegetto to exist when it'd require Vegeta, and Vegeta was being possessed by Bebi at the time. Additionally, the only time I remember fusion being indicated as not being enough was Gotenks in trying to fight Bebi Vegeta, and nothing in regards to Goku.

[Kamiccolo9]

I remember in DBGT (I believe it was against Bebi??) that Kaioshin said merging wouldn't be enough to take him down. But in the DBGT animanga it says :

It's kind of hard for Vegetto to exist when it'd require Vegeta, and Vegeta was being possessed by Bebi at the time. Additionally, the only time I remember fusion being indicated as not being enough was Gotenks in trying to fight Bebi Vegeta, and nothing in regards to Goku.

Wasn't that in the fight with the final dragon? I don't remember fusion even being mentioned until the last arc, when Goku tells them to give him their power instead, since fusion would be useless.

[Darkprince410]

Wasn't that in the fight with the final dragon? I don't remember fusion even being mentioned until the last arc, when Goku tells them to give him their power instead, since fusion would be useless.

No, it was when Uub was inside Bebi Vegeta's body, attacking him from the inside to stall for time.

Goku: "You can't win."

Goten: "B-but if we undergo Fusion, and everyone goes after him at once..."

Goku: "Even if you go through Fusion and become Gotenks, and everyone gangs up on him, there ain't a sliver of a chance of us beating him."

Goten: "S-so what are you saying, Father, that we should stick our fingers in our mouths and let him beat us?!"

Goku: "No, I ain't. There's only one way... Everyone, let me have all of your Super Saiya power! Return me to a full power Super Saiyan 4 once again. [ ] That's all we can do for now. If I were a Super Saiyan at full power, there's no way I could lose!"

Pan: "Right! Give Grandpa your power! I've seen him with my own eyes, after all! At Super Saiyan 4, Grandpa is really, really, unbelievably strong!"

[exodius33]

base Vegetto was curbstomping Super Buu (if we're taking the anime into account) and he didn't even need to go SSJ, he was just showing off.

If Gotenks, made from two child super saiyans, could go SSJ3, I'm certain Vegetto could as well, and I think a SSJ3 Vegetto could have been stronger than an unfused SSJ4.

[Analytic]

Shouldn't DBGT itself give us a clear answer that Vegetto was inferior to SSJ4?

It does, but not in the way that you're implying. Fusion is only brought up when talking about Goten and Trunks possibly fusing to try and fight Vegeta-Baby, though, as mentioned above, that sentiment is instantly shut down.

[Pocket-God]

Super Vegito from the Buu saga being anywhere near as strong as SSJ4 Goku is pretty much impossible.
Super Bebi Vegeta 1 had surpassed Super Vegito, he then powered up to Super Bebi Vegeta 2 and then powered up even further and became Golden Oozaru Bebi yet SSJ4 Goku could still over power him.

so the chain should go like this-

SSJ4 Goku > Golden Oozaru Bebi > SSJ3 Vegito > Super Bebi Vegeta 2 > SSJ2 Vegito =(or)> Super Bebi Vegeta 1 > SSJ Vegito > Base Vegito.

so....SSJ4 Goku = Super Vegito? Nah get that garbage out of here.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Super Vegito from the Buu saga being anywhere near as strong as SSJ4 Goku is pretty much impossible.
Super Bebi Vegeta 1 had surpassed Super Vegito, he then powered up to Super Bebi Vegeta 2 and then powered up even further and became Golden Oozaru Bebi yet SSJ4 Goku could still over power him.

so the chain should go like this-

SSJ4 Goku > Golden Oozaru Bebi > SSJ3 Vegito > Super Bebi Vegeta 2 > SSJ2 Vegito =(or)> Super Bebi Vegeta 1 > SSJ Vegito > Base Vegito.

so....SSJ4 Goku = Super Vegito? Nah get that garbage out of here.

I was just referring to the quote in the Dragonbook saying that Vegetto is "perhaps" stronger than SSJ4.

[Pocket-God]

Super Vegito from the Buu saga being anywhere near as strong as SSJ4 Goku is pretty much impossible.
Super Bebi Vegeta 1 had surpassed Super Vegito, he then powered up to Super Bebi Vegeta 2 and then powered up even further and became Golden Oozaru Bebi yet SSJ4 Goku could still over power him.

so the chain should go like this-

SSJ4 Goku > Golden Oozaru Bebi > SSJ3 Vegito > Super Bebi Vegeta 2 > SSJ2 Vegito =(or)> Super Bebi Vegeta 1 > SSJ Vegito > Base Vegito.

so....SSJ4 Goku = Super Vegito? Nah get that garbage out of here.

I was just referring to the quote in the Dragonbook saying that Vegetto is "perhaps" stronger than SSJ4.

Oh no, the last part of my comment wasn't directed at you, I just meant that the idea of Vegito being as strong as SSJ4 Goku is garbage and no one should take it seriously.

[Darkprince410]

Super Bebi Vegeta 1 had surpassed Super Vegito, he then powered up to Super Bebi Vegeta 2 and then powered up even further and became Golden Oozaru Bebi yet SSJ4 Goku could still over power him.

If you're referring to the whole "Greatest Saiya power" line, there's multiple ways that can be taken to where it still leaves Vegetto the stronger overall.

1) Bebi is referring to the greatest individual Saiya-jin power, and not something that existed solely through fusion.

2) Bebi is referring to the greatest Saiya-jin power that now exists. Since Vegetto doesn't exist anymore, possessing Vegeta and undeniably surpassing Goku's battle power would give him the greatest Saiya-jin power.

3) It's just typical villain boasting. We've seen time and again villains making such boasts and claims, so this wouldn't be anything new.

-----

Now, if you're referring to Goku's follow-up about Bebi Vegeta being the greatest he's ever sensed, there's ways that can be resolved too.

1) He's referring to the greatest he's ever sensed from someone else. Since he was Vegetto, and feeling your own power isn't the same as sensing, Vegetto could be far stronger than Bebi Vegeta while still being something Goku hadn't sensed.

2) He's referring to the greatest he personally has sensed. Again, since he was Vegetto, it wasn't technically him that would be sensing power, but a new entity.

3) He's just excluding what he's experienced before. We've seen him do that before as well, for in movie 12, he commented that Janemba's fat form was more powerful than anything he had ever sensed before, then proceeded to effortlessly overpower him with Ssj3. That wouldn't really be possible if Goku was factoring his own strength into it (either by being able to sense his own power or just ignoring his own sensed strength), as otherwise Janemba wouldn't be the most powerful he's sensed.

[Kamiccolo9]

There's also the fact that Baby didn't have immediate total access to his hosts' memories. He didn't know who Chi-Chi was without having to pull that information out of Goten. He wouldn't have known about Vegetto without having a reason to access Vegeta's memories of that.

[Analytic]

There's also the fact that Baby didn't have immediate total access to his hosts' memories. He didn't know who Chi-Chi was without having to pull that information out of Goten. He wouldn't have known about Vegetto without having a reason to access Vegeta's memories of that.

He seems to have some memories, though. When he went inside of Goten, he knew where Goten lived, he instantly knew Vegeta was the strongest Saiyan on Earth, and he also knew Gohan's name.

[Kamiccolo9]

There's also the fact that Baby didn't have immediate total access to his hosts' memories. He didn't know who Chi-Chi was without having to pull that information out of Goten. He wouldn't have known about Vegetto without having a reason to access Vegeta's memories of that.

He seems to have some memories, though. When he went inside of Goten, he knew where Goten lived, he instantly knew Vegeta was the strongest Saiyan on Earth, and he also knew Gohan's name.

It's not consistent is the point I'm making, though.

[pacz360]

Goku rembered his time as vegeto during his fight with kid buu in the anime.

[Kamiccolo9]

Goku rembered his time as vegeto during his fight with kid buu in the anime.

I'm referring to Baby's access to his hosts' memories. He doesn't seem to have immediate access to everything, because he didn't know about Chi-Chi, Uub, etc. His knowledge is inconsistent.

[Speedster]

It could possibly mean a general comparison between the power ups i.e. how Goku & Vegeta fusing with the potara to form Vegetto and turning SSJ1 compares with Goku turning SSJ4. Like a hypothetical GT SSJ1 Vegetto Versus GT SSJ4 Goku. Not the Buu arc Vegetto Vs GT SSJ4 Goku.

The logic is probably that base Vegetto is comparable to Goku going SSJ3. Then turning SSJ1 makes him stronger by whatever the SSJ1 multiplier is. On the other hand SSJ4 made Goku go from the SSJ3 level of getting easily beaten by Bebi Vegeta to a level of being on par with Oozaru Bebi Vegeta. So in other words the statement might just be saying "the multiplier of SSJ1 upon the base level is probably larger than the multiplier of SSJ4 upon the SSJ3 level".