Does being evil hinder your progress as a warrior?

[Steven Bloodriver]

If the Present Cell had survived and regenerated or if the Cell Juniors of Perfect Cell had turned on their father and survived the Cell Games, would either of them turning good have helped them improve in their training to catch up?

[Ssenrof]

Ask Frieza

[Doctor.]

If anything, it helps. Vegeta caught up because he fell to Babidi's magic, Boo absorbed people, Freeza got to God level in 4 months and Black used Goku's body than Goku ever did. Villains always have the upperhand.

[rereboy]

Indirectly, I think it does hinder it. Whenever a character is really evil, we are in a "kill or be killed" scenario, so he either dies or the competition dies. Whenever a character is not evil, he will be much more likely to have rivals/training partners/enemies around for longer which will help him keep improving.

Whenever a villain is better than the heroes is always because he's basically a "bigger genius" from the start (or because of something like magic), and we are always left thinking that "if only the villain wasn't so evil, he could have evolved into a much stronger fighter because he seemed to have monstrous potential... instead of dying".

[nickzambuto]

If anything, it helps. Vegeta caught up because he fell to Babidi's magic, Boo absorbed people, Freeza got to God level in 4 months and Black used Goku's body than Goku ever did. Villains always have the upperhand.

But each of those villains were ultimately surpassed and defeated, showing that their methods were far from perfect. Most of the time, it's their negative traits which hold them back. Freeza is too lazy and greedy to ever maximize his immense potential. Vegeta was too prideful and self-centered to maximize his own training and it was only after letting go of those traits that he begged Whis to train him and actually became a match for Goku (the ultimate irony is that this only happened after he no longer cared about that). Going back further, Roshi stated that Tenshinhan would never reach his full potential if he continued following the Crane School's ways, and look at what happened, it turned out he was completely right.

Villainy itself does not negate strength. Hypothetically if a villain like Freeza or Broly possessed the drive of Goku, obviously they'd become incredibly strong. But that's an impossible paradox, you can't be evil and selfish and simultaneously humble enough to learn from an old pervert, a talking cat, or a short, fat, blue nerd living alone on a tiny planet. It's the traits that come with villainy that impede the villains, traits like Freeza's laziness and Cell's delusional idea that he was already perfect in every way, or Boo's mindless rage that makes training impossible for him. Goku, being pure of heart, is the one being who can maximize everything in every way. Even his fellow heroes like Krillin don't reach his heights because they still possess certain negative traits that impede them. Goku is the only one who trains perfectly. Although Vegeta now does as well.

[Doctor.]

But each of those villains were ultimately surpassed and defeated, showing that their methods were far from perfect.

Not by any individual effort.

Majin Vegeta sucked punched Goku, essentially winning, and died to Boo, someone even more broken than him.

Boo needed a fusion of Goku and Vegeta to surpass his power, and even when he was weaker, he needed a giant Genkidama to be defeated.

Freeza essentially won and you needed Whis, the God of Destruction's Angel, to help out.

Black, again, essentially won, and you needed Zeno to kill his fusion.

[nickzambuto]

But each of those villains were ultimately surpassed and defeated, showing that their methods were far from perfect.

Not by any individual effort.

Majin Vegeta sucked punched Goku, essentially winning, and died to Boo, someone even more broken than him.

Boo needed a fusion of Goku and Vegeta to surpass his power, and even when he was weaker, he needed a giant Genkidama to be defeated.

Freeza essentially won and you needed Whis, the God of Destruction's Angel, to help out.

Black, again, essentially won, and you needed Zeno to kill his fusion.

Like you said, that was a sucker punch. Vegeta did not surpass Goku's power. Being evil didn't do anything to close the gap because Goku still had Super Saiyan 3, which angered Vegeta later on once he realized.

Boo gained power by absorbing people or "fusing". Once Goku and Vegeta did the same, they were superior. Being evil did not help Boo at all, he needed an unfair advantage (fusion vs non-fusion) in order to be stronger, but when he and the heroes were on even ground (non-fused Boo vs Gohan, and fused Boo vs fused Goku and Vegeta) he was MASSIVELY weaker in both cases. The discussion is on whether or not being evil hinders your progress as a warrior, and being evil ultimately did not aid Boo. The positive trait that evilness granted him (being dishonorable enough to absorb people) was still surpassed by the positive trait goodness granted the heroes (Goku and Vegeta setting themselves aside and fusing)

Freeza did essentially win, but again, he did not surpass the heroes' power. The advantage that evilness granted him was ruthlessness and underhandedness. The advantage that goodness granted the heroes was the friendship and assistance of Whis. They both had advantages, but evidently, the advantage from heroism won out. Not taking into account the second advantage from goodness, the fact that despite having less power, both Goku and Vegeta could beat Freeza in a fight. Overall, goodness clearly prevailed.

Unfortunately I can't speak on Black because I'm not current with Super (I went back to rewatch the series in Japanese while allowing episodes of Super to build up)

[Ssenrof]

[/quote]
Like you said, that was a sucker punch. Vegeta did not surpass Goku's power. Being evil didn't do anything to close the gap because Goku still had Super Saiyan 3, which angered Vegeta later on once he realized.

Boo gained power by absorbing people or "fusing". Once Goku and Vegeta did the same, they were superior. Being evil did not help Boo at all, he needed an unfair advantage (fusion vs non-fusion) in order to be stronger, but when he and the heroes were on even ground (non-fused Boo vs Gohan, and fused Boo vs fused Goku and Vegeta) he was MASSIVELY weaker in both cases. The discussion is on whether or not being evil hinders your progress as a warrior, and being evil ultimately did not aid Boo. The positive trait that evilness granted him (being dishonorable enough to absorb people) was still surpassed by the positive trait goodness granted the heroes (Goku and Vegeta setting themselves aside and fusing)

Freeza did essentially win, but again, he did not surpass the heroes' power. The advantage that evilness granted him was ruthlessness and underhandedness. The advantage that goodness granted the heroes was the friendship and assistance of Whis. They both had advantages, but evidently, the advantage from heroism won out. Not taking into account the second advantage from goodness, the fact that despite having less power, both Goku and Vegeta could beat Freeza in a fight. Overall, goodness clearly prevailed.

Unfortunately I can't speak on Black because I'm not current with Super (I went back to rewatch the series in Japanese while allowing episodes of Super to build up)[/quote]

Power inherintly has nothing to do with good/evil. Whis helping Goku has nothing to do with Goku being good but rather that Earth is a gourmet planet.

Frieza loosing has nothing to do with heroism vs Evil but just dumb luck that Whis gives two shits about the protagonists planet.

[nickzambuto]

Power inherintly has nothing to do with good/evil. Whis helping Goku has nothing to do with Goku being good but rather that Earth is a gourmet planet.

Frieza loosing has nothing to do with heroism vs Evil but just dumb luck that Whis gives two shits about the protagonists planet.

Why do you consciously choose to take all potential significance and depth, and purposely throw it to the wayside? Do you just prefer your stories to be shallow? Because Dragon Ball doesn't need to be like that, there's plenty of depth and substance to be found. My interpretation is that Beerus and Whis have genuinely grown fond of Goku, Vegeta, and the Earth. Their love of Earth's food is what's presented on the surface, but deep down inside, even if they don't want to admit it, Goku and Vegeta have become their companions. Whis guides them as his students, and Beerus honestly seems to enjoy himself playing with them.

And there's plenty of indication to support this interpretation. Beerus didn't catch Goku when he fell from space and gently lower him to the Earth for food. And if Whis only cared about food, he wouldn't have saved Goku and his friends, he would have just saved Bulma. Whis actually said outright earlier in the film that if Earth happened to be destroyed, he'd save Bulma if she promised to continue cooking for him. Both Whis and Beerus also stated that they were neutral in this conflict and would not stop Freeza if he destroyed Earth. All of this was revealed to be untrue when the Earth actually DID get destroyed, which Beerus and Whis probably were not expecting, and Whis went to the effort of saving not only Bulma, but everyone that he could. He then taught his student a valuable lesson and took him back in time to give him another chance. Food had nothing to do with it, food was not mentioned at all in this scene. This was a martial arts master guiding his student.

EDIT: I think the quote button is broken. I had to add this one in myself.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Indirectly, I think it does hinder it. Whenever a character is really evil, we are in a "kill or be killed" scenario, so he either dies or the competition dies. Whenever a character is not evil, he will be much more likely to have rivals/training partners/enemies around for longer which will help him keep improving.

Whenever a villain is better than the heroes is always because he's basically a "bigger genius" from the start (or because of something like magic), and we are always left thinking that "if only the villain wasn't so evil, he could have evolved into a much stronger fighter because he seemed to have monstrous potential... instead of dying".

You know Goku and all of his allies would have been killed (permanently) a long time ago, if it wasn't for the plot protecting them, right?

[Lord Beerus]

Hell no. Golden Freeza and Goku Black defy this trope.

[Ssenrof]

Power inherintly has nothing to do with good/evil. Whis helping Goku has nothing to do with Goku being good but rather that Earth is a gourmet planet.

Frieza loosing has nothing to do with heroism vs Evil but just dumb luck that Whis gives two shits about the protagonists planet.

Why do you consciously choose to take all potential significance and depth, and purposely throw it to the wayside? Do you just prefer your stories to be shallow? Because Dragon Ball doesn't need to be like that, there's plenty of depth and substance to be found. My interpretation is that Beerus and Whis have genuinely grown fond of Goku, Vegeta, and the Earth. Their love of Earth's food is what's presented on the surface, but deep down inside, even if they don't want to admit it, Goku and Vegeta have become their companions. Whis guides them as his students, and Beerus honestly seems to enjoy himself playing with them.

And there's plenty of indication to support this interpretation. Beerus didn't catch Goku when he fell from space and gently lower him to the Earth for food. And if Whis only cared about food, he wouldn't have saved Goku and his friends, he would have just saved Bulma. Whis actually said outright earlier in the film that if Earth happened to be destroyed, he'd save Bulma if she promised to continue cooking for him. Both Whis and Beerus also stated that they were neutral in this conflict and would not stop Freeza if he destroyed Earth. All of this was revealed to be untrue when the Earth actually DID get destroyed, which Beerus and Whis probably were not expecting, and Whis went to the effort of saving not only Bulma, but everyone that he could. He then taught his student a valuable lesson and took him back in time to give him another chance. Food had nothing to do with it, food was not mentioned at all in this scene. This was a martial arts master guiding his student.

EDIT: I think the quote button is broken. I had to add this one in myself.

Sure, Whis and Beerus seem to be a permanent addition to the whole Z gang. But, them joining it has nothing to do with Goku/Vegetas inherent heroism. It has to do with there battle power and the food of earth. If Goku couldn't unlock SS God, Beerus would haves destroyed the earth. Heroism be dammed.

I guess you could argue for Sayains being pure and good leads to power since you need a group of Sayains to achieve SSG. But, Vegeta did it without the ritual.

This thread aks if evil hinders a warriors progress. The answer is no of course not. Good/Evil isn't even a coherent standard to judge anything.

Evil/Good have absolutely no bearing on Supreme Gods of the universe. It's Beerus's job to destroy- his preordained job given to him by the True God. You could argue it's evil for Beerus to save planets since He is a destroyer.

Beerus is totally apathetic to be loss of billions of lives, he values pudding over human life. By any standard of human Morals you would call Beerus evil.

[nickzambuto]

Power inherintly has nothing to do with good/evil. Whis helping Goku has nothing to do with Goku being good but rather that Earth is a gourmet planet.

Frieza loosing has nothing to do with heroism vs Evil but just dumb luck that Whis gives two shits about the protagonists planet.

Why do you consciously choose to take all potential significance and depth, and purposely throw it to the wayside? Do you just prefer your stories to be shallow? Because Dragon Ball doesn't need to be like that, there's plenty of depth and substance to be found. My interpretation is that Beerus and Whis have genuinely grown fond of Goku, Vegeta, and the Earth. Their love of Earth's food is what's presented on the surface, but deep down inside, even if they don't want to admit it, Goku and Vegeta have become their companions. Whis guides them as his students, and Beerus honestly seems to enjoy himself playing with them.

And there's plenty of indication to support this interpretation. Beerus didn't catch Goku when he fell from space and gently lower him to the Earth for food. And if Whis only cared about food, he wouldn't have saved Goku and his friends, he would have just saved Bulma. Whis actually said outright earlier in the film that if Earth happened to be destroyed, he'd save Bulma if she promised to continue cooking for him. Both Whis and Beerus also stated that they were neutral in this conflict and would not stop Freeza if he destroyed Earth. All of this was revealed to be untrue when the Earth actually DID get destroyed, which Beerus and Whis probably were not expecting, and Whis went to the effort of saving not only Bulma, but everyone that he could. He then taught his student a valuable lesson and took him back in time to give him another chance. Food had nothing to do with it, food was not mentioned at all in this scene. This was a martial arts master guiding his student.

EDIT: I think the quote button is broken. I had to add this one in myself.

Sure, Whis and Beerus seem to be a permanent addition to the whole Z gang. But, them joining it has nothing to do with Goku/Vegetas inherent heroism. It has to do with there battle power and the food of earth. If Goku couldn't unlock SS God, Beerus would haves destroyed the earth. Heroism be dammed.

I guess you could argue for Sayains being pure and good leads to power since you need a group of Sayains to achieve SSG. But, Vegeta did it without the ritual.

This thread aks if evil hinders a warriors progress. The answer is no of course not. Good/Evil isn't even a coherent standard to judge anything.

Evil/Good have absolutely no bearing on Supreme Gods of the universe. It's Beerus's job to destroy- his preordained job given to him by the True God. You could argue it's evil for Beerus to save planets since He is a destroyer.

Beerus is totally apathetic to be loss of billions of lives, he values pudding over human life. By any standard of human Morals you would call Beerus evil.

You didn't counter what I already said. If Beerus and Whis haven't become fond of Goku and Vegeta, why did Beerus catch Goku when he fell from space? Why did Whis save them from Earth's destruction?

Godly allies is a benefit from Goku's pure heartedness. Being good gives more opportunities than being evil.

[rereboy]

Indirectly, I think it does hinder it. Whenever a character is really evil, we are in a "kill or be killed" scenario, so he either dies or the competition dies. Whenever a character is not evil, he will be much more likely to have rivals/training partners/enemies around for longer which will help him keep improving.

Whenever a villain is better than the heroes is always because he's basically a "bigger genius" from the start (or because of something like magic), and we are always left thinking that "if only the villain wasn't so evil, he could have evolved into a much stronger fighter because he seemed to have monstrous potential... instead of dying".

You know Goku and all of his allies would have been killed (permanently) a long time ago, if it wasn't for the plot protecting them, right?

This is the in-universe discussion forum.

[Ssenrof]

Why do you consciously choose to take all potential significance and depth, and purposely throw it to the wayside? Do you just prefer your stories to be shallow? Because Dragon Ball doesn't need to be like that, there's plenty of depth and substance to be found. My interpretation is that Beerus and Whis have genuinely grown fond of Goku, Vegeta, and the Earth. Their love of Earth's food is what's presented on the surface, but deep down inside, even if they don't want to admit it, Goku and Vegeta have become their companions. Whis guides them as his students, and Beerus honestly seems to enjoy himself playing with them.

And there's plenty of indication to support this interpretation. Beerus didn't catch Goku when he fell from space and gently lower him to the Earth for food. And if Whis only cared about food, he wouldn't have saved Goku and his friends, he would have just saved Bulma. Whis actually said outright earlier in the film that if Earth happened to be destroyed, he'd save Bulma if she promised to continue cooking for him. Both Whis and Beerus also stated that they were neutral in this conflict and would not stop Freeza if he destroyed Earth. All of this was revealed to be untrue when the Earth actually DID get destroyed, which Beerus and Whis probably were not expecting, and Whis went to the effort of saving not only Bulma, but everyone that he could. He then taught his student a valuable lesson and took him back in time to give him another chance. Food had nothing to do with it, food was not mentioned at all in this scene. This was a martial arts master guiding his student.

EDIT: I think the quote button is broken. I had to add this one in myself.

Sure, Whis and Beerus seem to be a permanent addition to the whole Z gang. But, them joining it has nothing to do with Goku/Vegetas inherent heroism. It has to do with there battle power and the food of earth. If Goku couldn't unlock SS God, Beerus would haves destroyed the earth. Heroism be dammed.

I guess you could argue for Sayains being pure and good leads to power since you need a group of Sayains to achieve SSG. But, Vegeta did it without the ritual.

This thread aks if evil hinders a warriors progress. The answer is no of course not. Good/Evil isn't even a coherent standard to judge anything.

Evil/Good have absolutely no bearing on Supreme Gods of the universe. It's Beerus's job to destroy- his preordained job given to him by the True God. You could argue it's evil for Beerus to save planets since He is a destroyer.

Beerus is totally apathetic to be loss of billions of lives, he values pudding over human life. By any standard of human Morals you would call Beerus evil.

You didn't counter what I already said. If Beerus and Whis haven't become fond of Goku and Vegeta, why did Beerus catch Goku when he fell from space? Why did Whis save them from Earth's destruction?

Godly allies is a benefit from Goku's pure heartedness. Being good gives more opportunities than being evil.

We disagree on the reasoning behind Beerus and Whis's fondness for Earth. Beerus respected Goku's power and potential, Whis liked the food.

That's all we know. Your belief that Beerus became fond of Goku due to his inherent goodness is not supported by the movies/super.

I agree that currently Beerus and Whis have become part of the cast- I disagree that they joined the cast due to goodness. Beerus specifically remarks about goku's genius fighting ability. All evidence leads to Beerus only caring about strength, not goodness.

Let me ask you this: If Goku was weak would Beerus have Spared the earth if Goku was pure of heart?

[Ki Breaker]

This is such a great question!
I am happy..
I would love to give a deep philosophical explanation to this but I doubt anyone would wanna hear it, so I am skipping it ( if anyone wants to discuss this just shoot me a pm )
Being evil essentially makes you kill your foe dosen't matter they are begging or not, or just remove any hurdles from your way by cheating or by power..
It hinders your development as a fighter, by the time it's necessary to develop, you are too used to win by corrupted ways that you cannot Handel it. And there goes any way of you becoming better because the next thing on your mind after getting your ass kicked is how to kill them by any means necessary and fast.. and training to do that isn't really the fastest or the most shiny way Infront of you..
Hence you get your ass kicked again..

When you leave this way of fighting or training, you Start to focus on your development as a person and your mind is free from nonsense, you are truly focused..
You are not being a good person by doing this though, you are just not evil..
Being neutral is the way to go..

I speak from experience here..been doing various forms of physical arts since long ago.. people who come to practice them just for the sake of looking cool or beating people up just stay on a very low level ( of course they aren't evil, just an example )

To conclude,
Progressing as a warrior or as a martial artist there are many levels of understanding of the art involved..
Being inherently evil dosen't let you understand the later levels and you are stuck in a place you cannot go up from until you change your point of view..

I hope this wasn't too long