Do we actually underestimate the intended level of Pui Pui?

[ShadowBardock89]

All of this means that Pui Pui is as strong as Vegeta was during the saiyans arc. If you want, you can think of him as Oozaru Vegeta rather than base, but I don't think he should be any higher.

In other words, Pui Pui is Babidi's Cui.

[dragonball0900]

I have the Base Saiyans surpassing Piccolo, and the reasons are these:

- Babidi and Dabura did know that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan were strongest out there in their base.

- Gohan and Vegeta thought that they could win the tournament in base (Vegeta is always cocky though)

- Goku as SSJ was 3000 kilis, Yakon was 800 kilis. Goku's base was stronger than Yakon, they were having a good battle but Goku seemed to have the edge. That would make base Goku 900-1000 kilis, probably a bit more. That would mean that by the Boo saga, the multiplier of SSJ was shorter (after all the training and all the transformations they had through the series, I don't think the SSJ is still X50 to be honest). This is all theory though, but it would make sense the whole Piccolo vs Base Saiyans debate. If you keep it still to X50, it will create more debates, but if you put it on a short number like a X3 or X2.5, then it could work that way.

But I still think Pui Pui is somewhere around Frieza saga tier, nothing too special. Vegeta just toyed with him through the whole fight. I might present a chart of scale numbers for the Cell-Boo saga character powers to see what I mean.

[Darkprince410]

I have the Base Saiyans surpassing Piccolo, and the reasons are these:

- Babidi and Dabura did know that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan were strongest out there in their base.

- Gohan and Vegeta thought that they could win the tournament in base (Vegeta is always cocky though)

1) It was shown later though that whatever means they have to sense strength is faulty. Despite the enormous strength he was claiming Goku and the others had, Dabra was readily shocked that Pui Pui was taken out and that Yakon was having a hard time with Goku's base form. If he were able to sense them accurately by any means, he'd have known that Pui Pui stood no chance at all and that Yakon would have trouble, but he didn't, thus his statement is unreliable at best.

2) Gohan didn't make any such comment that I can recall, and Vegeta's boast can be considered that, just another Vegeta boast. Alternately, the way he worded his statement could be just between the Saiya-jin, as he's saying that even without them transforming, his superior position among them wouldn't change.

[dragonball0900]

I have the Base Saiyans surpassing Piccolo, and the reasons are these:

- Babidi and Dabura did know that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan were strongest out there in their base.

- Gohan and Vegeta thought that they could win the tournament in base (Vegeta is always cocky though)

1) It was shown later though that whatever means they have to sense strength is faulty. Despite the enormous strength he was claiming Goku and the others had, Dabra was readily shocked that Pui Pui was taken out and that Yakon was having a hard time with Goku's base form. If he were able to sense them accurately by any means, he'd have known that Pui Pui stood no chance at all and that Yakon would have trouble, but he didn't, thus his statement is unreliable at best.

2) Gohan didn't make any such comment that I can recall, and Vegeta's boast can be considered that, just another Vegeta boast. Alternately, the way he worded his statement could be just between the Saiya-jin, as he's saying that even without them transforming, his superior position among them wouldn't change.

Dabura wasn't that shocked when he saw Vegeta winning, only Babidi was more shocked. Obviously what the story seems to imply is that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan in base where stronger than Piccolo, if they weren't then Toriyama could have made Piccolo go to the ship as well and make Dabura mentioning him.
As for Gohan and Vegeta. Well we can leave Vegeta, but Gohan was indeed in agreement on fighting in base. He and Vegeta could have been somewhat equals with Vegeta being a bit stronger. If the Base Saiyans were much weaker than Piccolo, I doubt that Gohan would decide to fight Piccolo as base if he's going to loose badly in a battle, unlike Goku or Vegeta, who can make a better fight, and both of which Gohan was aware of their strenght and knows that they are saiyans like him and would have a chance to loose to both of them.

[Kaboom]

I think the overall point is that the "marvelous energy" that Bobbidi and Dabra detected in the Saiyans was their Super Saiyan (2) power. That's what made Piccolo look like "trash" by comparison and was potent enough to release Boo that same day, as they expected.

[dragonball0900]

I think the overall point is that the "marvelous energy" that Bobbidi and Dabra detected in the Saiyans was their Super Saiyan (2) power. That's what made Piccolo look like "trash" by comparison and was potent enough to release Boo that same day, as they expected.

Babidi and Dabura didn't know about Super Saiyan 2. As far as I remember, they were very shocked when Boo's energy meter went nearly half Majin Boo's total power because of Gohan's SSJ2 power at the Tournament. Just like how they were shocked when they first saw Super Saiyan Goku against Yakon, and saw the 3000 kilis.

[Kaboom]

Babidi and Dabura didn't know about Super Saiyan 2.

Yeah, I know. They became aware of something they didn't fully understand, only knowing it was a good energy source but not realizing how it would stack up against their own forces.

[dragonball0900]

Babidi and Dabura didn't know about Super Saiyan 2.

Yeah, I know. They became aware of something they didn't fully understand, only knowing it was a good energy source but not realizing how it would stack up against their own forces.

The thing is that they never transformed into SSJ2 for Babidi and Dabura to notice it. It's like in previous sagas, any character who has only witnessed a saiyan in his base power, and then transforms into SSJ, then that character usually gets amazed by the new power. In this case, it would be the same.

[Kaboom]

Well the point is that Bobbidi and Dabra didn't find out how the heroes ranked by traditional ki-sensing means. Instead it was magical clairvoyance of some kind. That was the whole point of that little sequence... "we're masking our ki, but oh no, these guys are magic and can detect us anyway!" Whatever was going on, Bobbidi and Dabra most definitely were not just sensing the heroes as they were at that moment.

So in addition to knowing the heroes were there, that same magic let Bobbidi and Dabra know which of the heroes were hiding the most power, but not much else. They surmised that the Saiyans were a good energy source much greater than Piccolo and Kuririn, but that's it. Their magic didn't reveal the nature of that energy (SS/2/3), or how those three would stack up against their own forces. It's as if something ethereal told them "those three are hiding the most power by far" and nothing else.

It seems like the best way to reconcile that whole sequence in Bobbidi's ship with what Battle of Gods revealed about the Saiyans' base power.

[dragonball0900]

I don't know it was stated anywhere that their magical way of sensing the ki was like that, Dabura might know that they're hidding a lot of power, but what if he was only referring to just their base power? The transformations were certainly quite of a surprise for them. The scene does seem to imply that the saiyans were indeed stronger than we think as base. Specially with the kilis number, Goku was 3000 as SSJ, and Yakon was 800, Goku in base managed to battle Yakon, and Gohan said that even without transforming into SSJ they can defeat Yakon. The multiplier of X50 may not work here. With all the training and the SSJ2 the saiyans got through the series, maybe the base it's not X50 anymore?

[Darkprince410]

I don't know it was stated anywhere that their magical way of sensing the ki was like that, Dabura might know that they're hidding a lot of power, but what if he was only referring to just their base power? The transformations were certainly quite of a surprise for them. The scene does seem to imply that the saiyans were indeed stronger than we think as base. Specially with the kilis number, Goku was 3000 as SSJ, and Yakon was 800, Goku in base managed to battle Yakon, and Gohan said that even without transforming into SSJ they can defeat Yakon. The multiplier of X50 may not work here. With all the training and the SSJ2 the saiyans got through the series, maybe the base it's not X50 anymore?

That's the thing though. If it was just their base powers, then Dabra shouldn't have been surprised when Vegeta took out Pui Pui, but he and Babi-di both were. Even when Babi-di questioned him later about why there were beings that strong on Earth, Dabra acted like it shouldn't be possible, as there wasn't any indication of that up to that point. It would make no sense for him to be going off their base strength and then be bewildered by Pui Pui getting taken out

[dragonball0900]

I don't know it was stated anywhere that their magical way of sensing the ki was like that, Dabura might know that they're hidding a lot of power, but what if he was only referring to just their base power? The transformations were certainly quite of a surprise for them. The scene does seem to imply that the saiyans were indeed stronger than we think as base. Specially with the kilis number, Goku was 3000 as SSJ, and Yakon was 800, Goku in base managed to battle Yakon, and Gohan said that even without transforming into SSJ they can defeat Yakon. The multiplier of X50 may not work here. With all the training and the SSJ2 the saiyans got through the series, maybe the base it's not X50 anymore?

That's the thing though. If it was just their base powers, then Dabra shouldn't have been surprised when Vegeta took out Pui Pui, but he and Babi-di both were. Even when Babi-di questioned him later about why there were beings that strong on Earth, Dabra acted like it shouldn't be possible, as there wasn't any indication of that up to that point. It would make no sense for him to be going off their base strength and then be bewildered by Pui Pui getting taken out

To be fair, Dabura wasn't that shocked at that like how Babidi was. He knew there weren't earthlings with that power around since he could have known that ever since he sensed the Z warriors' potential earlier out of the ship, he could have told Babidi at that moment. Dabura thought Yakon would defeat the 3 of the saiyans, and wasn't considering the SSJ transformation at all. There's also the kilis measures of 800 for Yakon and 3000 for SSJ Goku, Base Goku would be 900-1000 kilis at best because Gohan did mention that they can beat Yakon without being SSJ. That statement can make us sure that the SSJ multiplier is not x50 anymore, we know Toriyama doesn't pay attention to those details, but it does make the idea of the gap between base and SSJ being shortened.

[RandomGuy96]

It's worth noting that Babidi and Dabra only ever to their foes' "energy", not their power. Power = energy/time. It's a well known fact that the actual powers fighters can use is nowhere near their raw energy. Therefore there's no problem with the base saiyans having more energy than Piccolo. This would also handily explain why Dabra thought that the three base saiyans would have enough energy to revive Buu (even though SS2 Gohan didn't even have half of what they needed) and why Pui Pui would beat them all. He knew they had massive energy, but just assumed they couldn't actually convert that to practical power, and thus one of the most powerful fighters in the universe would have no problem.

A good demonstration of a fighter having waaaaaay more "energy" than their "power" would imply is at the 23rd Budokai. Piccolo unleashes a massive omnidirectional attack covering a huge area, many kilometers in diameter. Tiny little Goku gets hit and receives barely any of what happened due to his puny surface area... yet it hits harder than anything else that Piccolo does. All of that energy hitting literally everything that wasn't Goku would account for millions of times more than what actually hits him and inflicts all that damage.

The same thing comes up again when Vegeta kills himself trying to kill Buu. That energy went everywhere other than Buu, but it was apparently the means by which he could do the most damage to a single target. It would have covered an area easily millions if times greater than his beam earlier in that fight, yet apparently did way more damage within the first attack's area.

Finally, there's Tenshinhan's Kikoho. It covers an enormous area compared to the much more precise Dodonpa, probably a contact area thousands if not millions of times greater. But it deals far more damage than the Dodonpa on whatever gets caught in its area. That's because Tenshinhan always had that energy in him. It's not actually possible for Tenshinhan to unleash more energy than he actually has, he's just managing to release it all at once- which is probably exactly what Super Saiyan does as well, just slower and more permanent (and with a x50 difference in power output rather than millions). Anytime somebody runs themselves dry, they've essentially accomplished something similar.

EDIT: This also ties directly into the fight between Piccolo and Gero. Gero explicitly had more energy from his own initially greater reserves and from absorbing most of Piccolo's, but Piccolo was still kicking his ass because as he said, they cause their power to "explode".

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P14.3
Piccolo: “Commit this to memory: when we fight, we amplify what you guys call ‘energy’, causing it to explode. That’s why the energy you stole from me earlier doesn’t matter…”

[Darkprince410]

To be fair, Dabura wasn't that shocked at that like how Babidi was. He knew there weren't earthlings with that power around since he could have known that ever since he sensed the Z warriors' potential earlier out of the ship, he could have told Babidi at that moment. Dabura thought Yakon would defeat the 3 of the saiyans, and wasn't considering the SSJ transformation at all. There's also the kilis measures of 800 for Yakon and 3000 for SSJ Goku, Base Goku would be 900-1000 kilis at best because Gohan did mention that they can beat Yakon without being SSJ. That statement can make us sure that the SSJ multiplier is not x50 anymore, we know Toriyama doesn't pay attention to those details, but it does make the idea of the gap between base and SSJ being shortened.

But he himself indicates that he had no such knowledge of such beings being on Earth, as he says as such when Babi-di questions why beings that powerful are on Earth.

Bobiddi: “Wh-Why are there people with that kind of power on Earth…?!!”

Dabra: "When I had [the Earth] investigated about 300 years ago there wasn’t anyone like this…”

If Dabra already knew or had any idea they were stronger than Pui Pui, as he would have to know if grasped their ki levels accurately, why would he be acting like he had no knowledge that there were such people on Earth now, let alone not tell Babi-di before they sent in Pui Pui?

Additionally, on two occasions Dabra states that Yakon would be able to defeat them instantly, yet it was shown that Goku was more or less Yakon's match, again meaning that he couldn't have sensed Goku's strength accurately if he is making such claims.

Dabra: “…I see. But with Yakon as their opponent, they’ll all be defeated instantly. I won’t get to have any fun.”

Dabra: “Hahhahha. Even without moving them to the Dark Planet, Yakon will be more than enough to defeat them…”

Everything points to Dabra having no accurate ki sensing capacity, so using his estimation of Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan as evidence is unreasonable.

[buutenks]

Pui pui is at best Zarbon level. Vegeta even laughs when Pui Pui thought 10x g would do anything, thus showing just how weak Pui Pui was. Aka a joke.

As for Yakon and ssj. Goku can increase and decrease his PL as a ssj, so that wasn't his full power.

[Speedster]

Except that contradicts what's indicated in the Z manga.

Picking and choosing as you see fit I see. But isn't Dragonball Super your "confirmation" in your argument about base Saiyans being weaker than Freeza? What in the original manga ever contradicted the notion that base Saiyans>Freeza?

If Dabra already knew or had any idea they were stronger than Pui Pui, as he would have to know if grasped their ki levels accurately, why would he be acting like he had no knowledge that there were such people on Earth now, let alone not tell Babi-di before they sent in Pui Pui?

Dabra was readily shocked by the fact that Vegeta dispatched Pui Pui, and outright stated that Yakon would be more than powerful enough, even without being in an environment to give him an advantage, to be able to beat all of them.

If he could sense that Vegeta and the others were strong enough to defeat Pui Pui, then it shouldn't have come to a surprise to him that such beings could exist, and there's certainly no reason he would have avoided telling Babi-di such things.

The battles inside Babidi’s spaceship weren’t meant to be 1vs1 fights. Just the Saiyans decided to fight 1Vs1 as they were too proud to do otherwise. But as far as Babidi and Dabra were concerned when they were challenging Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and Kaioshin to come into the spaceship they were expecting to go up against a combined/team effort. And even Kaioshin was suggesting them to fight as a team. A team that included Kaioshin who can one-shot Freeza. So either:
(i) Pui Pui and Yakkon were near or above Kaioshin as otherwise by your own logic Dabra wouldn’t be sending such weaklings to fight against Kaioshin. I mean even if we say Dabra underestimated the base power levels of the Saiyans he did know at least what Kaioshin was capable of, didn't he?
or
(ii)as per the Dragonball Super manga, Pui Pui and Yakkon were decoys and part of Dabra’s plan. Dabra may have wanted to see the fighting styles, techniques and secrets of our heroes before facing them by himself. And he actually went to face them himself right afterwards anyway in stage 3.

Additionally, you have to remember that the Dabra in Trunks' time would be dealing with a Z-sword trained Trunks, who would end up being vastly more powerful than Buu arc Goku and the others in their respective forms, so whereas Pui Pui and Yakon might have only been fodder for Trunks, it's clear that he saw them as being legitimately strong enough to take on Goku and the others in the Buu arc, meaning that his ki sensing was inaccurate at best.

You seem to assume that Babidi and Dabra came to Earth in Trunks’ timeline just a bit before the appearance of Black and therefore that the Trunks who faced Dabra was as strong as when we saw him in the F.Trunks arc when he sparred with Goku and consequently must have had a base much stronger than Buu arc Goku. However this is a fallacy because:
1. Trunks needed SSJ2 to go up against Dabra and his SSJ2 at the time couldn't be stronger than Majin Vegeta. He may have actually been only as strong as the “SSJ1.75” Gohan that went up against Dabra. Don't forget that even after Trunks turned SSJ2, Dabra was still pretty much confident he could beat him and SSJ2 Trunks only won because Kaioshin restricted Dabra’s movements.
2. We don't know how much time Trunks had after his fight with Dabra and his return to the main timeline. All we know is that the fight of Trunks against Dabra took place after Age 788 and 1 year before his escape from Black. Even if you count the 10years from Age 785 that is at least a 6-year period. Plus 1 year facing Black, total 7 years. What is to say that after the Dabra fight, Trunks didn't have 3-5 years to train before the appearance of Black and who knows how much additional improvement he got by facing Black for a year.
3. Again you forget Kaioshin’s presence. You choose to go with the falsifiable “but this base Future Trunks is so much stronger than base Goku and Vegeta were in the Buu arc" instead of acknowledging that if Pui and Yakkon were weaklings it would also mean that Dabra is considering them at least fodders to Kaioshin who can one-shot Freeza. And retroactively this could have been the case in the Buu arc too making them decoys and part of his plan.

[Darkprince410]

Except that contradicts what's indicated in the Z manga.

Picking and choosing as you see fit I see. But isn't Dragonball Super your "confirmation" in your argument about base Saiyans being weaker than Freeza? What in the original manga ever contradicted the notion that base Saiyans>Freeza?

If Dabra already knew or had any idea they were stronger than Pui Pui, as he would have to know if grasped their ki levels accurately, why would he be acting like he had no knowledge that there were such people on Earth now, let alone not tell Babi-di before they sent in Pui Pui?

Dabra was readily shocked by the fact that Vegeta dispatched Pui Pui, and outright stated that Yakon would be more than powerful enough, even without being in an environment to give him an advantage, to be able to beat all of them.

If he could sense that Vegeta and the others were strong enough to defeat Pui Pui, then it shouldn't have come to a surprise to him that such beings could exist, and there's certainly no reason he would have avoided telling Babi-di such things.

The battles inside Babidi’s spaceship weren’t meant to be 1vs1 fights. Just the Saiyans decided to fight 1Vs1 as they were too proud to do otherwise. But as far as Babidi and Dabra were concerned when they were challenging Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and Kaioshin to come into the spaceship they were expecting to go up against a combined/team effort. And even Kaioshin was suggesting them to fight as a team. A team that included Kaioshin who can one-shot Freeza. So either:
(i) Pui Pui and Yakkon were near or above Kaioshin as otherwise by your own logic Dabra wouldn’t be sending such weaklings to fight against Kaioshin. I mean even if we say Dabra underestimated the base power levels of the Saiyans he did know at least what Kaioshin was capable of, didn't he?
or
(ii)as per the Dragonball Super manga, Pui Pui and Yakkon were decoys and part of Dabra’s plan. Dabra may have wanted to see the fighting styles, techniques and secrets of our heroes before facing them by himself. And he actually went to face them himself right afterwards anyway in stage 3.

Additionally, you have to remember that the Dabra in Trunks' time would be dealing with a Z-sword trained Trunks, who would end up being vastly more powerful than Buu arc Goku and the others in their respective forms, so whereas Pui Pui and Yakon might have only been fodder for Trunks, it's clear that he saw them as being legitimately strong enough to take on Goku and the others in the Buu arc, meaning that his ki sensing was inaccurate at best.

You seem to assume that Babidi and Dabra came to Earth in Trunks’ timeline just a bit before the appearance of Black and therefore that the Trunks who faced Dabra was as strong as when we saw him in the F.Trunks arc when he sparred with Goku and consequently must have had a base much stronger than Buu arc Goku. However this is a fallacy because:
1. Trunks needed SSJ2 to go up against Dabra and his SSJ2 at the time couldn't be stronger than Majin Vegeta. He may have actually been only as strong as the “SSJ1.75” Gohan that went up against Dabra. Don't forget that even after Trunks turned SSJ2, Dabra was still pretty much confident he could beat him and SSJ2 Trunks only won because Kaioshin restricted Dabra’s movements.
2. We don't know how much time Trunks had after his fight with Dabra and his return to the main timeline. All we know is that the fight of Trunks against Dabra took place after Age 788 and 1 year before his escape from Black. Even if you count the 10years from Age 785 that is at least a 6-year period. Plus 1 year facing Black, total 7 years. What is to say that after the Dabra fight, Trunks didn't have 3-5 years to train before the appearance of Black and who knows how much additional improvement he got by facing Black for a year.
3. Again you forget Kaioshin’s presence. You choose to go with the falsifiable “but this base Future Trunks is so much stronger than base Goku and Vegeta were in the Buu arc" instead of acknowledging that if Pui and Yakkon were weaklings it would also mean that Dabra is considering them at least fodders to Kaioshin who can one-shot Freeza. And retroactively this could have been the case in the Buu arc too making them decoys and part of his plan.

1) I'm not picking and choosing what I want to contradict, because nothing in the Z manga actually says in any real, undeniable sense that the base Saiya-jin were above Piccolo in strength.

2) There's no reason to say he actually knew how powerful Kaioushin was. Nothing was ever said that the two had ever fought or anything before, and there's no way of knowing if he could sense the ki of the Kaioushin either. Besides, as shown already, his ki/power sensing capacity is unreliable and terrible at best. Within the Z manga, his reactions to Pui Pui and Yakon dying, as well as his initial comments about Yakon, prove that, at least within the events of the Buu arc, he saw the likes of Goku and the others as being weak enough that Pui Pui shouldn't have lost so completely and Yakon should have mopped the floor with them. Given this clearly wasn't the case, then his ki sensing capacity was way off. Besides, it's not even Dabra saying such things in the Super manga, it's Babi-di, and in his situation it's even worse, because he was clearly and undeniably shocked at anyone being strong enough to take on Pui Pui and kill him.

3) In both the manga and anime, once Trunks went Ssj2 the fight was one sided as can be. Even though Dabra thought he could still win, the feats shown indicated otherwise. Him believing he could win was virtually no different than when Perfect Cell acted like he could still win against Ssj2 Gohan by going to full power (i.e. blowing smoke). And I'm not going by where Trunks was at the time he returned to the present to escape Black, but simply the fact that it's shown he trained with the Z Sword and became at least as proficient with it as Gohan did. If Gohan's strength boosts were considerable with his training, then Trunks' logically should have been as well.

[dragon boss z]

But isn't Dragonball Super your "confirmation" in your argument about base Saiyans being weaker than Freeza? What in the original manga ever contradicted the notion that base Saiyans>Freeza?

That's not how it works. Goku's power gains are unknown and we know base Goku<<<<<Frieza in the namek arc, so you are the one who has to come up with solid evidence base saiyans are stronger than Frieza. Until there is proof Frieza should still be considered stronger. And that's just if you go by the original manga. If you go by BoG or Super it's confirmed Frieza is still above base saiyans. This makes perfect sense too. The Daizenshuu even confirms after the Frieza arc the saiyans stopped getting zenkais and big boosts in strength and started focusing more on transformations. So if the Daizenshuu says they stopped getting big boosts in their base, it is highly unlikely Goku's base got over 40x stronger since the Namek arc.


"Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…"

-taken from battle power guide on this sight. original source Daizenshuu.

[dragonball0900]

But isn't Dragonball Super your "confirmation" in your argument about base Saiyans being weaker than Freeza? What in the original manga ever contradicted the notion that base Saiyans>Freeza?

That's not how it works. Goku's power gains are unknown and we know base Goku<<<<<Frieza in the namek arc, so you are the one who has to come up with solid evidence base saiyans are stronger than Frieza. Until there is proof Frieza should still be considered stronger. And that's just if you go by the original manga. If you go by BoG or Super it's confirmed Frieza is still above base saiyans. This makes perfect sense too. The Daizenshuu even confirms after the Frieza arc the saiyans stopped getting zenkais and big boosts in strength and started focusing more on transformations. So if the Daizenshuu says they stopped getting big boosts in their base, it is highly unlikely Goku's base got over 40x stronger since the Namek arc.


"Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…"

-taken from battle power guide on this sight. original source Daizenshuu.

Well, that statement from the guide doesn't mean that Goku's base can't surpass Frieza though. They get new transformations, sure, but remember all the training they had: Goku, Vegeta and Gohan all trained hard in 3 years for the Androids, then trained one year on the ROSAT (2 if we count Vegeta). Then another 7 years more of training, until we arrive to the Buu saga. I doubt they wouldn't get their bases above Frieza after all this time and after all the big boosts they had.

There's also the kilis numbers given. Yakon is 800 and SSJ Goku 3000. Gohan stated that they could beat Yakon without the SSJ, so their bases should be equal or stronger than Yakon, leaving the SSJ to be a X2.5 or X3 multiplier because of the gap between a >800 and 3000. If we change the SSJ multiplier everything will work fine. Toriyama even said that he wanted the SSJ to be less than X50 and to be more like a X10, implying he wanted it to be shorter.

He did want the SSJ to be a short multiplier. It was X50 in the beggining, that's what we can agree. But after all they have got years later to the Buu saga, the kilis numbers and what Toriyama said, do you think the multiplier for SSJ should still be a 50?

[dragon boss z]

Well, that statement from the guide doesn't mean that Goku's base can't surpass Frieza though. They get new transformations, sure, but remember all the training they had: Goku, Vegeta and Gohan all trained hard in 3 years for the Androids, then trained one year on the ROSAT (2 if we count Vegeta). Then another 7 years more of training, until we arrive to the Buu saga. I doubt they wouldn't get their bases above Frieza after all this time and after all the big boosts they had.

There was 5 years between the 23rd budokai and Raditz showing up and Goku's power level went from somewhere above 300 to 416.

In between the Cell and Buu saga Goku wasn't even able to get his ssj form stronger than ssj2 teen Gohan.

It is extremely unlikely Goku got his base over 40x stronger just from training.

There's also the kilis numbers given. Yakon is 800 and SSJ Goku 3000. Gohan stated that they could beat Yakon without the SSJ, so their bases should be equal or stronger than Yakon, leaving the SSJ to be a X2.5 or X3 multiplier because of the gap between a >800 and 3000. If we change the SSJ multiplier everything will work fine. Toriyama even said that he wanted the SSJ to be less than X50 and to be more like a X10, implying he wanted it to be shorter.

3,000 kilis probably wasn't Goku's full power. Also those numbers were picked because 800 and 3000 are a pun on really large numbers in Japanese. I put the quote in a earlier post.

He did want the SSJ to be a short multiplier. It was X50 in the beggining, that's what we can agree. But after all they have got years later to the Buu saga, the kilis numbers and what Toriyama said, do you think the multiplier for SSJ should still be a 50?

Whis confirmed ssj multiplies their power tens of times over.