I Guess Anyone Can Become Much Stronger Through Training Now?

[theherodjl]

So maybe Toriyama decided that the pieces to his puzzle are not all shaped like Goku it seems.
Freeza started off the whole gets-significantly-WTF-stronger-by-training trend in the recent years but it doesn't seem limited just to him now, Piccolo is at least Super Perfect Cell-tier from training more intensely after Majin Boo's defeat, Android 17 is stronger than current SSJ Goku by protecting animals for several years, Krillin has gotten strong enough to dodge a hit from Base Gohan, and from the looks of it Tenshinhan has gotten similarly more powerful.
Has DB gone back to basics and allowed traditional weaklings to play a part too?

[GigaDrill]

It's still better than absurd powercreep rendering the secondary characters more and more irrelevant tbh

[cheddarsword]

Well it goes without saying that you can't bench press 100 lbs. at the start of your training despite the fact that doing so might help you get stronger faster.

Once you ARE able to though, your strength increases will be much more drastic.

Besides, let's not forget that the ONLY REAL HUMANS that are competing here are Roshi and Krillin. There is the great possibility that Tien's an alien.

While one of their descendants, Tien, makes regular appearances in the Dragon Ball franchise, the actual pure Three-Eyed People never appear in the series. The Three-Eyed People are first mentioned in the Daizenshuu books, and later in the small description booklet in the boxes for Dragon Ball Z Season 1 and Dragon Ball Z Season 4 DVDs, both mentioning that Tien is a "Descendant of the Three-Eyed People". Tien's origin is also referenced in the Dragon Ball: Raging Blast what-if story "The Top Earthling Tournament" where, after defeating Tien for the title of "strongest earthling", Krillin asks if Tien is even from Earth. Tien's profile in Dragon Ball: Raging Blast 2 mentions the Triclops as being an alien race. Tien's voice actor Hirotaka Suzuoki also noted in an interview that Tien was not an Earthling

[theherodjl]

Bump, as of episode 89.

Here now we see that Roshi is actually stronger than Tenshinhan who according to filler, is powerful enough to stalemate Jeice & Burter with half of his strength after training with Kaio. If further filler is used then Ten is stronger than Yamcha who is more powerful than Olibu who is not far behind from Cell Games Base Goku.
Then Roshi actually survived a kamehameha wave from current base Goku which has got to peg him on par with Namek Freeza for that to make sense.
Battle power of 139 for Roshi? More like 139,000,000 tbh.

[cheddarsword]

Bump, as of episode 89.

Here now we see that Roshi is actually stronger than Tenshinhan who according to filler, is powerful enough to stalemate Jeice & Burter with half of his strength after training with Kaio. If further filler is used then Ten is stronger than Yamcha who is more powerful than Olibu who is not far behind from Cell Games Base Goku.
Then Roshi actually survived a kamehameha wave from current base Goku which has got to peg him on par with Namek Freeza for that to make sense.
Battle power of 139 for Roshi? More like 139,000,000 tbh.

Namek Frieza? Base Goku had no trouble with resurected Frieza's final form.

[theherodjl]

Bump, as of episode 89.

Here now we see that Roshi is actually stronger than Tenshinhan who according to filler, is powerful enough to stalemate Jeice & Burter with half of his strength after training with Kaio. If further filler is used then Ten is stronger than Yamcha who is more powerful than Olibu who is not far behind from Cell Games Base Goku.
Then Roshi actually survived a kamehameha wave from current base Goku which has got to peg him on par with Namek Freeza for that to make sense.
Battle power of 139 for Roshi? More like 139,000,000 tbh.

Namek Frieza? Base Goku had no trouble with resurected Frieza's final form.

I'm talking about Goku as in the two base theory, I believe Goku did not use God power when he used the kamehameha on Roshi. If he did then...well shit.

[cheddarsword]

Bump, as of episode 89.

Here now we see that Roshi is actually stronger than Tenshinhan who according to filler, is powerful enough to stalemate Jeice & Burter with half of his strength after training with Kaio. If further filler is used then Ten is stronger than Yamcha who is more powerful than Olibu who is not far behind from Cell Games Base Goku.
Then Roshi actually survived a kamehameha wave from current base Goku which has got to peg him on par with Namek Freeza for that to make sense.
Battle power of 139 for Roshi? More like 139,000,000 tbh.

Namek Frieza? Base Goku had no trouble with resurected Frieza's final form.

I'm talking about Goku as in the two base theory, I believe Goku did not use God power when he used the kamehameha on Roshi. If he did then...well shit.

yeah, but even base form has Ki control. It can be weaker than Glass Joe in Punch Out if Goku lowered it. All God Ki is in base form is just a new ceiling if you think about it.

[theherodjl]

Namek Frieza? Base Goku had no trouble with resurected Frieza's final form.

I'm talking about Goku as in the two base theory, I believe Goku did not use God power when he used the kamehameha on Roshi. If he did then...well shit.

yeah, but even base form has Ki control. It can be weaker than Glass Joe in Punch Out if Goku lowered it. All God Ki is in base form is just a new ceiling if you think about it.

The point is, Roshi who should not under any circumstances be relevant since DB, is now strong enough to cause a non-God Base Goku to put forth some effort in a physical bout and then tank a kamehameha wave mostly unharmed from the same level.
The retcon that the modern DB lore has implemented now has someone with a former power level of 139 from years of training, now have a higher power level in one year of training than the Ginyu Force. Krillin at least had the excuse of a potential unlock and Yamcha and Ten training with Kaio to justify such an increase while Roshi had it in him this whole time to get that strong naturally.

[TheZFighter]

Strange phenomenon, this whole "people can improve through training" thing...

[theherodjl]

Strange phenomenon, this whole "people someone besides Saiyans can improve through training" thing...

Fixed it for you.

[Lord Beerus]

I really don't see what the major issue is. People get much stronger through training in Dragon Ball. That's a fact from day one.

[LowRyder2005]

I think it's a mixture of Toei not giving the preceding narrative too much thought and prioritizing the intended direction of the plot; it could've probably been executed much better, regardless. Still, good luck when trying to wrap your head around the hypothesis, in-universe, of a character being able to suddenly train (say) hundreds of times more efficaciously than the times they trained in any arc post-Namek.

As a side note, I still don't buy Roshi being stronger than Tien under normal conditions, even in-universe, for the simple fact that Tien had apparently the need to put some effort into stopping his possessed students. I was pretty surprised to see that I'm in the minority when theorizing that the talisman gave Roshi a sizable buff.

[TheMikado]

Namek Frieza? Base Goku had no trouble with resurected Frieza's final form.

I'm talking about Goku as in the two base theory, I believe Goku did not use God power when he used the kamehameha on Roshi. If he did then...well shit.

yeah, but even base form has Ki control. It can be weaker than Glass Joe in Punch Out if Goku lowered it. All God Ki is in base form is just a new ceiling if you think about it.

Wait a minute, so we've extended the water bottle theory to Goku's base form now? Yes it's true Goku can hold back, but the ability both hold back and visibly put in effort wasn't really a thing for this base form. Only SSB, which in and of itself is not proven. I think I'm trying to point out the slippery slope of head canon and excusing the scenarios.

[cheddarsword]

I'm talking about Goku as in the two base theory, I believe Goku did not use God power when he used the kamehameha on Roshi. If he did then...well shit.

yeah, but even base form has Ki control. It can be weaker than Glass Joe in Punch Out if Goku lowered it. All God Ki is in base form is just a new ceiling if you think about it.

Wait a minute, so we've extended the water bottle theory to Goku's base form now? Yes it's true Goku can hold back, but the ability both hold back and visibly put in effort wasn't really a thing for this base form. Only SSB, which in and of itself is not proven. I think I'm trying to point out the slippery slope of head canon and excusing the scenarios.

There are various instances of this actually. When Goku powered up to "Over 8,000!" during the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta DROPPING his power so Krillin could mortally wound him during the Frieza fight, Goku barely registering on scouters against Burter and Jeice and then Ginyu using his body to reach 18,000+, his energy not being felt at all during the 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi tournament. All of this before super saiyan was achieved.

And let's not forget Kaioken.

Honestly, I'm surprised you're even making that kind of statement. I figured it would go without saiyan.

[Lord Beerus]

I think it's a mixture of Toei not giving the preceding narrative too much thought and prioritizing the intended direction of the plot; it could've probably been executed much better, regardless. Still, good luck when trying to wrap your head around the hypothesis, in-universe, of a character being able to suddenly train (say) hundreds of times more efficaciously than the times they trained in any arc post-Namek.

I'd think the only character who I would honestly say who has made huge jump is strength is Android 17. And even then his true power is very unambiguous beyond "he's much stronger than SSJ Goku" given the nature of his battle against SSJB Goku. The only we know for sure strength wise is that Piccolo can hold his own against SSJ2 Gohan, Krillin can use tactic and strategy to hold his own as Base Saiyans (Goku and Vegeta). The only thing that strikes me a peculiar is the notion that Roshi can hold his own against on Tien. But it was at very least, if very sloppily, hand-waved in-universe that Roshi apparently have been training in secret and has been hiding his true strength. When Roshi started train though in secret is anyone's guess. But given how easily he wiped the deck with Freeza's grunts in Resurrection F, who mostly had battle powers in the low thousands, it seem as though it was quite recent that Roshi has been getting back into business.

[Bansho64]

I really don't see what the major issue is. People get much stronger through training in Dragon Ball. That's a fact from day one.

Nah, I'mma need more than "I just trained". What'd you do? Anything special? Gravity room? Multi form? RoSAT? We get nothing. Just saying "I trained" is straight bullcrap. We don't know what they went through or how hard they went to improve themselves. No special training methods, nothing. Just, "I trained".

[TheMikado]

yeah, but even base form has Ki control. It can be weaker than Glass Joe in Punch Out if Goku lowered it. All God Ki is in base form is just a new ceiling if you think about it.

Wait a minute, so we've extended the water bottle theory to Goku's base form now? Yes it's true Goku can hold back, but the ability both hold back and visibly put in effort wasn't really a thing for this base form. Only SSB, which in and of itself is not proven. I think I'm trying to point out the slippery slope of head canon and excusing the scenarios.

There are various instances of this actually. When Goku powered up to "Over 8,000!" during the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta DROPPING his power so Krillin could mortally wound him during the Frieza fight, Goku barely registering on scouters against Burter and Jeice and then Ginyu using his body to reach 18,000+, his energy not being felt at all during the 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi tournament. All of this before super saiyan was achieved.

And let's not forget Kaioken.

Honestly, I'm surprised you're even making that kind of statement. I figured it would go without saiyan.

No you didn't read my specific statement. Again, this is the reason people say SSB can both physically appear to strain and hold back simultaneously.
To which I say there is no precedent for this.

[Lord Beerus]

I really don't see what the major issue is. People get much stronger through training in Dragon Ball. That's a fact from day one.

Nah, I'mma need more than "I just trained". What'd you do? Anything special? Gravity room? Multi form? RoSAT? We get nothing. Just saying "I trained" is straight bullcrap. We don't know what they went through or how hard they went to improve themselves. No special training methods, nothing. Just, "I trained".

Like I've said in the past, not every character needs to jump through hoops to become insanely strong. The fashion in which most cast, especially the Saiyans, got strong in the show is the exception not the set stand and rule that must be obliged by every other character that trains. There's no universal gradient that must be abided to when a character grows in power. Some people make small gains through training for a very long time and others make great gains from training for a much lesser amount of time. Some do it on their own with basic tools and others do it with the aid of others or unique enhancements. It's all really dependable on... well... what the plot demands. Some use gimmicks and get special treatment to take shortcuts in get stronger while other just do it the old fashioned way.

Now I understand people's issues. I'd love for more detail on certain characters get stronger. But the only people who really put a glass ceiling on the possible gains in strength a character can attain are the fanbase, not the writers. Yes, the writers do have an obligation to provide more detail for how strong characters can get, but it's not their job to bend over to the will of a fanbase who want their theories and hypothesis of just how strong characters can truly get under certain circumstances to be justified. Some people may have an issue with it and others don't. Some people what don't like the idea of basic training being applied to characters and them getting much stronger from it, and others don't mind because in the past it has been show that even basic training can yield great results from some characters in growing stronger.

Now is Super using this liberty a bit too much? Well, it's how much you're willing to suspend your disbelief. If you're will to accept the notion that characters can achieve varying levels of increased strength on their own through training, as we've been told can happen in the happen in the past, it shouldn't been now a real issue. But if you want more detail to how any given character gets "X" times stronger in training, whether by themselves, or by training with someone, then your criticism is warranted if the circumstance in the show isn't explained appropriately. But keep in mind, this is franchise that loves to play it loose and swift with how strong the characters are to make the narrative as entertaining as possible. I mean, it is a show about fighting. And one of the main themes in Dragon Ball is: "y training + x character = RNG times more powerful"

[MainJPW]

I seriously don't see why Kuririn competing with Base Gohan is a problem, the Earthlings should never be far behind the Base Saiyans to begin with given the fact that the latter can transform anyway.

This is why the massive power creep in Z was a problem, I say good riddance. Let the Earthlings compete with Base Saiyans, as long as they're not stomping Super Saiyans or god level characters there shouldn't be any sort of problem.

[theherodjl]

I seriously don't see why Kuririn competing with Base Gohan is a problem, the Earthlings should never be far behind the Base Saiyans to begin with given the fact that the latter can transform anyway.

This is why the massive power creep in Z was a problem, I say good riddance. Let the Earthlings compete with Base Saiyans, as long as they're not stomping Super Saiyans or god level characters there shouldn't be any sort of problem.

It is a welcome change I must admit...but the reasoning for it(or lack of reasoning maybe?) is just lazy.
The Earthlings always did have a great potential to them but there was always the disadvantage of living on a planet with normal gravity as well as being without a hax biological ability such as the Zenkai, so they could only make relatively minimal gains in power under such ordinary conditions. Kaio even says training under 10x gravity on his planet for months would be like training for thousands of years on Earth.
However the retcon of Super now has it that regardless of whatever training method anyone attempts or wherever they train, as long as they have heart then they may get as strong as they wish, mechanics or logic be damned.
If this change had been implemented at the beginning of DBZ then Roshi could've defeated the Saiyans and then gone on to Namek as a relevant fighter, possibly causing some sort of trouble to Freeza even.