Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

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shadowfox87
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Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat May 26, 2018 2:34 pm

Whether you agree with me or not, I hope you also enjoy reading it! (if you read it) I also created this timeline graph in photoshop:
Source: https://serenade87.deviantart.com/art/D ... -723741541

Time travel and alternate timelines have always been a subject of much complexity that’s not just limited to Dragon Ball, but several other stories like Flash, Back to the Future, Doctor Who, and Steins Gate. We were first given an official explanation in the Daizenshuu 7 showing 4 distinct timelines in Dragon Ball Z. The fourth timeline, called the “Unseen” timeline, has been heavily debated and did not make logical sense to many people.

Hence, today I will explain how the fourth timeline, the Unseen Timeline, CAN indeed fit with logic and explain everything. I have gathered all the information from DBZ, DBS, Daizenshuu, and Chouzenshuu to explain all the different timelines, how they were created, when they were created, and the what if scenarios of the unknown timelines. This will explain timelines in Dragon Ball completely once and for all. It will be a three part series. The first part will discuss the original 4 timelines before Dragon Ball Super and the second part will discuss the new timelines that were added after Dragon Ball Super. The third part is the expanded DB universe (DBO, Xenoverse, DBH, and movies) to see if alternate timelines can be exploited to still have them fit. Without further ado, let’s begin!

A couple of timeline rules before we start:

1. New Timelines are created when changes are done in the past that create a paradox.
2. Time Rings can only go to the future and then back. They do not create alternate timelines even if changes are done in the future.
3. The silver time ring represents the main timeline or the reference timeline while the green ones represent alternate timelines.
4. When a timeline is erased, the time ring also disappears.
5. Time flows at the same rate in each timeline. No timeline is faster or slower than another. Time that passes in one timeline also passes in another. (Ignoring gravitational dilation and black holes of course.)
Make sense so far right? Now let us start with the first official chart showing 4 distinct timelines in the Daizenshuu 7:
In 2013, the Chouzenshuu were released which are 4 books that are the revised and updated versions of the 7 Daizenshuu. Surprisingly, the Chouzenshuu 4 excluded the fourth timeline - the Unseen Timeline. At first, this might seem good since fans could never explain the Unseen timeline. However, there is now a contradiction with DBS. The reason is that when Gowasu first opens the box of time rings, we see 5 total time rings which means 1 main timeline and 4 alternate timelines. If we go by the Chouzenshuu 4, then there are 2 missing timelines. One of them can be explained because it is the timeline created by the Universe 12 time traveler, but what about the other one? Therefore, a fourth timeline is required in order to satisfy the number of time rings shown when Gowasu first opens the box.

Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/databook/chozenshu/vol-04/

So we have to go back to the Daizenshuu 7 and look at the original timeline chart. Note the numbering of the timelines has nothing to do with the order in which the timelines were created. This is just how Toei named them with Timeline 1 always being the main timeline. Main does not mean original though.

So let us begin with the original original timeline before any time travel. As per the Toei chart, we see that the original timeline is the one from which Future Trunks is Timeline 3. Hence, if we opened the box of time rings, we would only see 1 silver ring.
Contrary to popular belief, Trunks was not the first time traveler in history. It was stated by Gowasu in the manga (Chapter 17 and 26) that the very first time machine in history was created by a mortal in Universe 12 and it resulted in the first new time ring. To prevent misuse, it was confiscated by the Universe’s Kaioshin, Ugg, before it could be used again. This is what led to time travel being banned in the first place. When Zamasu and Black went on their rampage of killing Kaioshin, they took the universe 12’s time machine for themselves. Though they never used it, but they had planned to follow Goku and the gang to the past if they escaped again. So after the events of the Universe 12 time traveler, a new time ring was created. The main timeline got split into Timeline 1 and Timeline 5. Remember that 5 is because of the way Toei defined the numbering for the other 4 timelines. Timeline 5 is the first alternate timeline despite 5 in its name. Now there are 2 rings total:
Then in DBZ, Future Trunks goes back 20 years from Age 784 to Age 764. He gives Goku the heart medicine, which saves his life. The paradox hence is that if Goku is alive in the past, then how can a Trunks from the future exist that takes this heart medicine to the past? Thus, a new timeline is created, splitting the Timeline 1 into Timeline 1 and Timeline 3 where the original timeline where Goku is dead is Timeline 3 and the main timeline is Timeline 1. As per the Toei chart, we see that the original timeline is the one from which Future Trunks is from called Timeline 3. So the main timeline is no longer the "original" timeline. Now there are 3 time rings total:
Hope you’re keeping up!
In the future, it takes Trunks one full year (exactly 8 months) to recharge the time machine with Electro Blue no. 15 fuel before he could make another trip. This time, he goes back from Age 785 to Age 767, three years after he last visited. He is not going to a past point in his own timeline, but a future point 3 years AFTER in Timeline 1. There is no paradox and hence, a new timeline is NOT created. In this timeline, Trunks and Krillin find Dr. Gero’s basement lab where they find the blueprints for Android 17 (Chapter 365). Trunks does not stay and immediately goes back to his own timeline (Timeline 3) to give these blueprints to future Bulma. Then, future Bulma was able to create the shutdown controller for Android 17 and 18. Trunks used this to defeat the Androids in Age 785. Imperfect Cell arrives three years later in Age 788 and is unable to find the Androids. He he kills Trunks (who did not train with Vegeta in the Room of Spirit and Time) and takes the time machine back to the main timeline, Timeline 1 to Age 763, 1 year prior to when Trunks had arrived. Note that Cell just pressed a button on the Time Machine and had no idea where he was going. It luckily was just set to Age 763.
Cell’s arrival in the past causes a paradox. That paradox is created when Trunks sees the photos of his own time machine and Cell’s cocoon (Chapter 358). This was the trigger and for Trunks to make the decision to not leave and train in the Room of Spirit and Time with his father. In the future, Trunks killed Cell because he trained in the Room of Spirit and Time. He trained because Cell came back in time. Cell came back in time because he killed Trunks in the future. Thus, there is a paradox. To fix this paradox, a timeline must be created where Trunks killed Cell and one where Trunks was killed by Cell.

This splits the main timeline (Timeline 1) again into Timeline 1 and Timeline 4 where Timeline 1 is where Trunks stays and trains and Timeline 4 is the one where Trunks leaves with the blueprints. Now there are 4 time rings total.
Timeline 4 has always been one of the biggest mysteries in DBZ. Many fans believed that the Daizenshuu 7 made a mistake in this timeline. The Daizenshuu stated that in this timeline, there is a Cell Games without Trunks, but how can that happen? If Cell came from the future, stealing Trunks’ time machine to go to Timeline 1, then how can he also be present in Timeline 4? That is, where did this other Cell come from? Even the Chouzenshuu excluded Timeline 4 because it didn’t make sense. There's a way to make this work without contradicting anything in the guidebooks. This again has to do with understanding when the timeline was split and what paradox caused it to split.

Cell Games without Trunks (Original):
No Cell and no Trunks (Alternate):
To summarize, we got 5 timelines before the start of DBS:

Timeline 1 - Main Timeline. Cell Games with Trunks. Trunks decides to stay and train in the Room of Spirit and Time.
Timeline 2 - New Future Timeline. Trunks kills Android 17, 18, and Cell with his own power.
Timeline 3 - Original Timeline. Trunks gives blueprints to future Bulma to make a remote shutdown controller. Trunks uses remote to defeat Android 17 and 18. Cell kills Trunks and takes the time machine.
Timeline 4 - Unseen Timeline. Cell Games without Trunks. Trunks leaves with the blueprints he finds from Dr. Gero's basement lab and returns to Timeline 3.
Timeline 5 – First Alternate Timeline. A mortal from Universe 12 used the first time machine in history to go to the past.

------------------PART 2 DRAGON BALL SUPER POST-ZAMASU ARC---------------------

With me so far? Everything I've told you so far is consistent with the facts in the original DB manga, DBS, Daizenshuu 7, and Chouzenshuu 4.

Now let's begin with Dragon Ball Super. Gowasu opens the time ring box for the first time (Chapter 17, page 9 and Episode 49) and what do we see? We see 4 green time rings and 1 silver ring. That's a total of 5 rings or 5 timelines. This is exactly what we got!
Gowasu further comments that someone has created a new time ring recently since he last opened the box. In the anime, he said a new ring was added just a few years ago.
If it was created a few years ago, then it couldn’t have been caused by Trunks arriving with the time machine now in the Zamasu arc. This means that the last time ring had to be created from the Cell Saga when Trunks used his time machine for the third time in Age 767, a few years before Age 779 which is when the Zamasu arc started in DBS.

Let’s continue. So after the events of the U6 Tournament, Zamasu learns of Goku from watching GodTube. As to why he picked Goku's body and not Monaka, it was said by Goku that it might be because Zamasu didn't want large nipples.
He goes to Zuno and learns everything about the Super Dragon Balls. He kills Gowasu, taking the time ring. Then he gathers the Super Dragon Balls and wishes to switch bodies with Goku to become Black. Then kills Goku and his family. Now to escape Beerus, he needed to travel to a timeline where there is no Beerus. Thus, he traveled to Timeline 2 – the Future Trunks timeline.

In Timeline 2, after Trunks killed Cell. A few years later, Babidi and Dabura arrive. Trunks trains with Shin, achieves SSJ2, and kills Dabura with Shin dying in the process, which also kills Beerus. Thus Timeline 2 did not have a Beerus and Black could carry out the Zero Mortals Plan without worry.

He found Future Zamasu and allied with him and kills Future Gowasu. The two Zamasus gathered the Super Dragon Balls, but since Goku was not alive in this timeline, Future Zamasu instead wished for immortality! It works out to Black’s plan because he needed Zamasu to use his healing powers to get zenkai boosts. Note that the only reason Zamasu can use healing powers is because he is the attendant / disciple of Gowasu. If he was a Kaioshin, he wouldn't be able to heal. From each zenkai boost, Black learns Goku’s body more and makes it his own as new cells that are created bond with Zamasu. Future Trunks from Timeline 2 eventually escapes back to Timeline 1. Remember a new timeline still has NOT been created because there's no paradox yet! Trunks warns Goku and the gang of Black. They eventually figure out that Zamasu is behind the whole thing so Beerus hakais him. NOW we have a paradox, splitting to Timeline 1 into Timeline 1 and Timeline 6 with the latter being the timeline from which Zamasu is alive and successfully becomes Black.
Beerus thought that using hakai on present Zamasu would eliminate all versions of that Zamasu in other timelines but he was wrong. It only made matters worse by creating a new timeline and time ring, giving us a total of 6 time rings, 5 green and 1 silver. Note that in the DBS manga, Beerus was already aware that killing Zamasu would create a new timeline, but he did it anyway to save himself from being killed.
Then, when Zeno erases the entire Timeline 2 (Future Trunks’ timeline), one of the time rings disappears from the box as shown in the manga, Chapter 26. So now there’s 5 time rings total. So if the timeline is erased, how can Goku still travel back to it to pick up future Zeno? It is still possible to use a time machine to travel to the parallel world where Future Zeno is since the settings of the time machine were already tuned to a specific frequency that corresponded to the erased timeline. This was explained by Pilaf.
But we aren’t done yet! In the end, Trunks and Mai decide that they want to travel back to the future before Dabura and Zamasu. Whis and Beerus give them permission to do so. Whis travels to this timeline to wake up future Beerus early and warn him of Zamasu. Zamasu is sealed by Beerus permanently. Since Beerus is alive, Black doesn't travel to this world. This creates another paradox since the actions of Zamasu are prevented in this timeline and hence, Zeno doesn't erase it. If Zeno doesn't erase it, then Trunks and Mai wouldn't have needed to go back in time again - a paradox. This splits the Timeline 2 into Timeline 7 and Timeline 2 which the latter is erased by Zeno and the former contains two different pairs of Trunks and Mai.
This is Toei's latest chart explaining the timelines after the Zamasu arc:
-------------------PART 3 WHAT IF SCENARIOS and EXPANDED DB VERSE---------------
This chart only shows the anime version of events but without the manga, it is impossible to explain how Zamasu learns of Goku originally. Zamasu becomes evil after losing to Goku -> Goku fights Zamasu because Trunks -> Trunks travels back in time because of Black -> Black is created by Zamasu after he becomes evil. This creates a never ending loop! We don’t know the start point. In the manga, we know that even without meeting Goku, it is GodTube that allows Zamasu to learn of Goku.

Now for the fun part – theory. There is an expanded DB verse that is beyond just anime and manga. It includes Dragon Ball Online (DBO), movies, OVAs, Xenoverse, Dragon Ball Heroes (DBH), and other video games. Apart from DBO, most of these are considered to be “not canon”. Now a lot of people do not like to use the word, “canon”. Rather, it’s better to look at “continuity”. That is, is there a way to fit the above possible stories without contradiction? The Daizenshuu 6 has tried to place the movies in the timeline. There are only two timelines available for us to use for these other stories – Timeline 4 (Unseen) and Timeline 5 (First Alternate Timeline). The latter is a blank slate which means we can make it whatever we desire. I will try to see with logic, if it is thus possible to fit in the expanded DB verse using these two timelines.

So to now summarize based on the above chart from Toei: (italics are theories or fanfiction)

Timeline 1 (light blue) – Main Timeline, the one we watch on tv; Created when Beerus hakai’d Zamasu. Goku is alive. Universe 7 wins the Tournament of Power. Broly arc. Moro arc. You know this story.

Expanded DB verse (theory):
Timeline 2 (green) – Future Trunks Timeline, erased by Zeno. Created when Trunks kills Imperfect Cell in the future. Trunks kills Android 17, 18, Cell, and Dabura. Shin is killed by Babidi causing Beerus to die. Black invades this world, kills Gowasu and recruits Future Zamasu. Goku and Vegeta from Timeline 1 fight Black and Zamasu. Eventually, Infinite Zamasu happens and Zeno erases the timeline.

Expanded DB verse (theory):


Timeline 3 – Original Timeline, Future Trunks uses shutdown remote controller to destroy Android 17 and 18. Imperfect Cell kills Trunks and takes the time machine. There are no strong fighters left on Earth. Buu is not revived due to lack of sufficient energy.

Theoretical part:


Timeline 4 – Unseen Timeline. Trunks arrives a second time and takes the blueprints from Dr. Gero’s basement lab to his own timeline, Timeline 3, never training in the Room of Spirit and Time. Cell Games occur without Trunks. Created when Trunks first travels back in time to give Goku the heart medicine. Events of the Buu saga and Yo Son Goku occur like they did in main timeline.

Expanded DB verse (theory):


Timeline 5 – First alternate timeline. This timeline was created by the actions of an unknown mortal from Universe 12 from Timeline 3 using the very first time machine in history. This time machine was later confiscated by the Universe 12's kaioshin. Black and Zamasu found this time machine in Timeline 2 after killing the kaioshin and planned to use it to follow Goku and co. as Infinite Zamasu. We don't know anything about this timeline, so it's free for our imagination.

Expanded DB verse (theory):


Timeline 6 (dark blue) – Former main timeline, Zamasu switches with Goku’s body to become Black, kills Gowasu and Goku, and takes the time ring to Timeline 2.

Theoretical part:


Timeline 7 (brown) – New Future Trunks Timeline. Created when Trunks and Mai travel from Timeline 1 to before Dabura. Whis from Timeline 1 wakes up Beerus early and warns him of Zamasu. Zamasu is sealed permanently. There is no Black in this timeline. There are two pairs of Trunks and Mai. Dabura is defeated, Shin lives and hence, Beerus lives. Paragus and Broly still live in Planet Vanpa but since Freeza is not alive, they remain undiscovered.

Expanded DB Verse Theory:


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I was able to incorporate essentially first four DB movies, original 13 DBZ movies, Plan to Eradicate Saiyans, Android 21 arc, Real 4-D, Bardock OVA, History of Trunks. There are two things I could NOT fit and that's Movie 8 with Trunks and Plan to Eradicate with Saiyans with Trunks. This is because Trunks has to leave with the blueprints in Timeline 4 so he never stays and trains with Vegeta. And we know that in the main timeline, it's canon so I can't put these two movies in there. I mean that's not too bad right haha? We still got Hatchiyack and Broly to work with in other arcs like in SDBH.

Questions you’re probably asking:

Last edited by shadowfox87 on Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:01 pm, edited 61 times in total.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Desassina
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Desassina » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:43 am

I read through all that and I still don't get the incessant need to find the origin of these time trips. If we stopped "headcanoning" and took the time to appreciate things as they were, without the need for an explanation when we were given an official one, then you would realize that it's much simpler than what we're trying to make out of it.

We saw the events unfold from the perspective of the main line, and not future Trunks', because time flows straight from the past to the future. Cell came from when he killed Trunks, and he remembers, through either the super computer or the bug, that the latter was present when Freeza and King Cold arrived, setting the condition for him to have existed in the first instance of time travel. If Cell was able to depart to the past, then Trunks wouldn't have arrived the second time, except that he did, and it was because of this event that: baby Cell was killed; the lab was destroyed; Trunks surpassed the androids; Cell absorbed them; Gohan killed him. None of this happened in Cell's hypothetical future, which makes Trunks' second trip a condition for it to not exist, but only after Cell having arrived before these changes. And how is that possible? It's simple: the future doesn't happen before the past, and Trunks' time machine locked on to his time, because it's merely a branch of the main one. Let's look at Toyotaro's explanation of time travel in DBS:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Beerus killed Zamasu when Trunks arrived to warn them about Goku Black, but the latter would not have existed with Zamasu dead, so his plan was carried out as a possibility, from the perspective of the main line and Trunks' future, because Goku Black jumped sideways from another. It means that Trunks could only have warned the others without Zamasu being killed by Beerus. The anime adds Goku Black's challenge in the past as a bonus and it doesn't interfere.

However, I'm still capable of playing along. Here's a simplified scheme that I made:

Image

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shadowfox87
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:09 am

First of all, thanks for reading all of it lol! (including the spoilers)
Desassina wrote:I read through all that and I still don't get the incessant need to find the origin of these time trips. If we stopped "headcanoning" and took the time to appreciate things as they were, without the need for an explanation when we were given an official one, then you would realize that it's much simpler than what we're trying to make out of it.
If you read it, then the only "headcannon" was the part that I italicized and stated "theory" in parentheses because those represent what if scenarios in timelines 4 and 5 which are both unknown. The rest is all based on Daizenshuu 7, Chouzenshuu 4, Toei's official chart, anime, and manga. The chart you posted by Toyotaro is also good and is very simplified. This chart only shows 3 timelines since those were the only ones involved in DBS, but there are many more and we know this since there are many time rings. Here is a better image:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

The reason for the "incessant" need to explain things is the same reason to explain anything - to understand. What event causes the timelines to be created, why they are created, and when are all important. For me, I like to make sense of things. I guess it's the scientist in me, but I appreciate it a lot more when going deeper than just the simplified explanation.
Desassina wrote:We saw the events unfold from the perspective of the main line, and not future Trunks', because time flows straight from the past to the future. Cell came from when he killed Trunks, and he remembers, through either the super computer or the bug, that the latter was present when Freeza and King Cold arrived, setting the condition for him to have existed in the first instance of time travel. If Cell was able to depart to the past, then Trunks wouldn't have arrived the second time, except that he did, and it was because of this event that: baby Cell was killed; the lab was destroyed; Trunks surpassed the androids; Cell absorbed them; Gohan killed him. None of this happened in Cell's hypothetical future, which makes Trunks' second trip a condition for it to not exist, but only after Cell having arrived before these changes. And how is that possible? It's simple: the fuure doesn't happen before the past, and Trunks' time machine locked on to his time, because it's merely a branch of the main one. Let's look at Toyotaro's explanation of time travel in DBS:
The main timeline is not the original timeline. The original timeline is the one in which Goku dies due to the heart virus and where Imperfect Cell kills Trunks. As you said, time flows from past to future. Therefore, it's best to explain things from the perspective of the original timeline because this is the starting point.

Cell went back in time 1 year prior to Future Trunks first arrival. He did not have any knowledge of Future Trunks killing Cold and Freeza from the supercomputer because that never happened in his timeline. In his timeline, Cold and Freeza came, and were most likely killed by Goku who used Shunkan Ido to arrive at the scene in time. He further stated that he has the genes collected from Cold and Freeza, but not Future Trunks which makes sense since Future Trunks didn't kill Cold and Freea in his timeline. He used the default settings that were already configured in the time machine - Age 764, August and changed it back by 1 year, then pressed a button. He arrived in Age 763.

[spoiler]
Image
Image
Image
Source: Chapter 358
Image
Image
Image
Source: Chapter 363
[/spoiler]

Trunks was going to make two trips regardless of Cell. The first trip was to give Goku the heart medicine. The second trip was to find a weakness or strategy to beat Androids 17 and 18 - blueprints. Before Cell traveled to the past, it was Androids 17 and 18 that attacked South City, not 19 and 20. In Trunks' timeline, he had never seen 19 and 20. He wondered why history changed so much. The reason was that Cell's arrival to the past caused a ripple in time, which changed events slightly so that Androids 17 and 18 were stronger and Dr. Gero and Android 19 attacked South City instead. In the Unseen (Timeline 4), the Androids 17 and 18 were defeated and Trunks took 17's blueprints to the future because Cell did not exist in that timeline.

The Trunks that took the blueprints did not stay and train with Vegeta, so was killed by Cell in the future. Cell took the time machine to the past which caused Trunks to stay and train. This created a "paradox". We need a Trunks that left without training to be killed by Cell as well as a Trunks that stayed and trained and killed Cell in the future. Therefore, you have a split of the main timeline and the future timeline. The future timeline got split from Timeline 3 (original) to Timeline 2 and 3. The main timeline got split from Timeline 4 into Timeline 1 and 4.



All of this is already stated in the Daizenshuu 7 and Chouzenshuu 4, so there isn't any headcannon even needed. The chart you posted is for DBS. That has nothing to do with the timelines created in DBZ. For those timelines, you need to use the official databooks - Daizenshuu 7 and Chouzenshuu 4. The headcannon that's needed is to explain the timelines in DBZ and DBS such that they satisfy the number of time rings shown.
Desassina wrote:Beerus killed Zamasu when Trunks arrived to warn them about Goku Black, but the latter would not have existed with Zamasu dead, so his plan was carried out as a possibility, from the perspective of the main line and Trunks' future, because Goku Black jumped sideways from another. It means that Trunks could only have warned the others without Zamasu being killed by Beerus. The anime adds Goku Black's challenge in the past as a bonus and it doesn't interfere.
Yes, Trunks came from the future to warn them about Zamasu which led to Zamasu being hakai'd by Beerus. This created a paradox since Trunks wouldn't have arrived from the future if Zamasu didn't become Black. Therefore, Beerus killing present Zamasu split the main timeline. One main timeline is one in which Zamasu successfully lives and becomes Black. The new main timeline (the one we watch), is the one where Zamasu is hakai'd. Black's challenge to Goku is merely a result of his time ring following the distortion in time created by Trunks' time machine.

Nothing I've told you contradicts with any of the official charts I've posted and sourced. The hard part was explaining DBZ, DBS, and then trying to fit in the expanded DB verse that included DBO and other seemingly non-canon stuff like Xenoverse, GT, DBH, and movies.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Desassina
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Desassina » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:39 pm

Shadowfox, I will answer your post, but let me post a complete scheme with DBS:

Image

Basically, I had to imagine that, for Trunks to not have departed to the past, so that Zamasu completed his plan, Cell killed him and went back to create a copy of the mainline. This copy would have developed into the Buu saga, BoG, RoF and the U6T before Zamasu saw everything on GodTube.

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:20 am

Your first timeline should be the original timeline, Timeline 3. As you said, Goku kills Cold and Freeza. However, Trunks cannot sneak into Dr. Gero's lab as he is only a baby at the time the Androids attack South City. Gohan survives and trains Kid Trunks. Bulma makes the time machine and the Trunks from this timeline travels back in time. Future Trunks returns to this timeline with the blueprints. The Androids are destroyed with the remote controller that was designed from Future Bulma using the blueprints. Cell kills Trunks in this timeline, taking his time machine to the past.

Your second timeline should be the Unseen Timeline, Timeline 4. Future Trunks has no idea where Dr. Gero's lab is until he chases him in his second trip. Future Trunks makes two trips regardless as I said before. He finds the blueprints from the basement lab later. There's a 3 year gap between Trunks arriving the first time and the androids being activated. For you to say that Trunks never left and stayed, means he stayed in the main timeline for 3 years! In this timeline, Trunks finds the blueprints and goes back to the future. The Androids are defeated by Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks. Three Super Saiyans were enough because these Androids were just as strong as the ones in the future.
There is no Perfect Cell in this timeline, no Cell Games.

Your third timeline is the current main timeline, Timeline 1. This is all correct.

Your fourth timeline is Timeline 2, the future timeline in which Trunks has killed Cell and the Androids. The same timeline in which Black invades and is erased by Zeno. This is all correct.

Your fifth timeline is Timeline 6, the former main timeline in which Zamasu is alive and succeeds in switching bodies with Goku to become Black. This is all correct.

Your sixth timeline doesn't make any sense. There is only 1 timeline in which Cell kills Trunks and takes the time machine - the original timeline, Timeline 3. This timeline should really be the new future timeline in which there are two pairs of Trunks and Mai living. It's Timeline 7.


Basically, your third to fifth timelines are correct since these are the timelines that occurred during DBS and you used Toyotaro's chart. So all you need to fix, is your first timeline (Timeline 3 - Original) and second timeline (Timeline 4 - Unseen). Your sixth timeline (Timeline 7) should be the new future timeline in which Trunks and Mai now live in where there are two pairs of Trunks and Mai. Lastly, you are missing the first alternate timeline (Timeline 5) created by the Universe 12 time traveler. After all that, then you will get the correct number of time rings and be consistent with the Daizenshuu 7 and Chouzenshuu 4.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:09 am

Hi shadowfox87,

I've got a couple questions on your theory (particularly the rules by which it operates).

If one hour passes in timeline X, does timeline Y also advance by one hour? I think so, and the DBS manga does state this (I don't expect you'd disagree).

Here's a tougher one. There's two timelines, X and Y. If someone jumps from timeline X to, say, timeline X+10 years, timeline X is advanced 10 years (duh). But, does timeline Y also advance 10 years, or does it remain at its previous age? In other words: is timeline Y fast-forwarded or not?
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:37 am

Terra-jin wrote:Hi shadowfox87,

I've got a couple questions on your theory (particularly the rules by which it operates).

If one hour passes in timeline X, does timeline Y also advance by one hour? I think so, and the DBS manga does state this (I don't expect you'd disagree).

Here's a tougher one. There's two timelines, X and Y. If someone jumps from timeline X to, say, timeline X+10 years, timeline X is advanced 10 years (duh). But, does timeline Y also advance 10 years, or does it remain at its previous age? In other words: is timeline Y fast-forwarded or not?
Hey, good questions. Yes, if time passes in one time, the same time is also passed in a parallel timeline. Though with a time machine, one can visit another timeline at any point in time. For example, Future Trunks went back to the future after giving Goku the heart medicine. He spent approximately 1 year in the future, to refill the Time Machine with the No. 15 Electro Blue fuel. Then he went back to the past but 3 years later from the last point in time. So it really doesn't matter since with a time machine, you can select when you you want to arrive. I think mainly you want to avoid visiting a point in time where there is already a version of yourself otherwise there are two copies.

One should also note that in certain dimensions, time passes differently like the Room of Spirit and Time, World of Void, and the Time Nest. In RoSaT, time moves faster. In World of Void and Time Nest, they are outside of space, real world time, and the 12 universes so time moves considerably slower such that to an outside observer, no time is passed. Think of Flash moving so fast that it looks like time has stopped around him. That is, time is relative. For example, the 48 minutes that passed in the World of Void, would be like no time has passed at all to an outside observer like Bulma. Therefore, when the Z senshi return from the World of Void back to Earth, Bulma wouldn't have noticed any time passed. This is also why all the Time Patrol stuff can fit without changing anything.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:46 am

It's true that Trunks spent one year in the future and went back three years further than the last time. That means that right before his second trip, his timeline was at 785 and the past was at 765. Trunks aimed at 767, so he basically went two years into the future. The question is: after Trunks arrived in the past again (in 767), what year is it in his future? 785 or 787?
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:04 pm

Terra-jin wrote:It's true that Trunks spent one year in the future and went back three years further than the last time. That means that right before his second trip, his timeline was at 785 and the past was at 765. Trunks aimed at 767, so he basically went two years into the future. The question is: after Trunks arrived in the past again (in 767), what year is it in his future? 785 or 787?
Trunks' time machine is programmed to go to the date in the future from when he left the last time. Trunks traveled the first time from Age 784 (future) to Age 764 (past). He gave Goku the heart medicine and then went back to the future, Age 784. He spent less than a day in the main timeline, so less than a day passed in the future timeline. Then he waited 1 year, and went back a second time from Age 785 to 3 years after - Age 767. This time, Trunks spends a few weeks with the Cell Games, so a few weeks also pass in the future. When he returns to the future, he's returning to the same time when he left - Age 785 not Age 787, but a few weeks later. Future Bulma uses the blueprints and makes the remote controller. Trunks defeats the Androids in Age 786 - one year after he arrived (Unseen Timeline), but in Timeline 2, he didn't need to wait 1 year. He had enough power to destroy the Androids himself in Age 785. Cell arrives 3 years later in Age 788.

In DBS, they made multiple trips back and forth between the future and present. Time that elapsed in the present also elapsed in the future. This is why you are asking me this question. The story was told in a way to make it easier for the audience to understand. So while Goku and Vegeta were training and preparing to revisit the future, Trunks and Mai were holding off Black. In the DBS Manga, Chapter 21, Goku and Vegeta just escaped back to the present after being defeated by Black. Goku and Vegeta take their own sweet time talking and recovering. Goku trains to learn the Mafuba and Vegeta spends an entire day in the RoSaT. So basically at least 1 day has passed in the main timeline. In this case, 1 day also passes in the future. Trunks and Mai are saved by Gowasu and rest on Kaishin planet for 1 day. When Goku and Vegeta went back to the future a second time, Bulma used the default settings on the time machine to go back to the future, not to the exact point in time from when they left, but 1 day after.

The Time Machine most likely has its own internal clock to know how much time has elapsed. Therefore, when Bulma keeps the default settings to return to the future, the Time Machine goes to the same point in the future plus the time that has elapsed based on its own internal clock. If Bulma changed the settings to an earlier date in the future - let's say she went to the future just before Black arrived, then that would create a new parallel timeline. That's why they had to go back to the future, to the same time without changing the settings. This part is just theory though.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
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Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:54 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Trunks' time machine is programmed to go to the date in the future from when he left the last time. Trunks traveled the first time from Age 784 (future) to Age 764 (past). He gave Goku the heart medicine and then went back to the future, Age 784. He spent less than a day in the main timeline, so less than a day passed in the future timeline. Then he waited 1 year, and went back a second time from Age 785 to 3 years after - Age 767. This time, Trunks spends a few weeks with the Cell Games, so a few weeks also pass in the future. When he returns to the future, he's returning to the same time when he left - Age 785 not Age 787, but a few weeks later. Future Bulma uses the blueprints and makes the remote controller. Trunks defeats the Androids in Age 786 - one year after he arrived (Unseen Timeline), but in Timeline 2, he didn't need to wait 1 year. He had enough power to destroy the Androids himself in Age 785. Cell arrives 3 years later in Age 788.
But what year is it in Trunks' timeline at the moment he has arrived in the past? This is crucial to my next point.
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:36 pm

Terra-jin wrote:But what year is it in Trunks' timeline at the moment he has arrived in the past? This is crucial to my next point.
The same year from when he left. To put it simply, if Trunks from the future leaves from year X to another timeline to year X - y, it is still year X in his future timeline. It doesn't matter what timeline he goes to and how far back he goes to, the year is still X in his own timeline.

Additionally, if he returns to the future at a point in time before year X, then a new parallel timeline will be created.
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:22 am

Alright, so when the main timeline is at 767, Trunks' future is still at 785. This means that from the perspective of the main timeline, time in Trunks' future stood still for two years. In other words: if we would formulate a time travel rule, it would be that when you travel to the future, you fast-forward the destination timeline, while other timelines are frozen in time.

Let's suppose that someone from the main timeline also makes a trip - from 765 in the main timeline to 787 in Trunks' future. In 765 in the main timeline, Trunks' timeline was at 785. This means that this trip would go two years into the future of Trunks' timeline. If we're following the above-mentioned rule, the main timeline would stand still while Trunks' future is fast-forwarded two years.

As you can see, this leads to a logical contradiction: both timelines would stand still from each other's perspectives for two years. For this reason, it must be the case that trips to the future fast-forward all timelines equally.

This also fits nicely with the idea that timelines are separate worlds. Just as all universes (1 thru 12) are affected equally by time travel, so should all timelines.
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:51 am

Terra-jin wrote:Alright, so when the main timeline is at 767, Trunks' future is still at 785. This means that from the perspective of the main timeline, time in Trunks' future stood still for two years. In other words: if we would formulate a time travel rule, it would be that when you travel to the future, you fast-forward the destination timeline, while other timelines are frozen in time.

Let's suppose that someone from the main timeline also makes a trip - from 765 in the main timeline to 787 in Trunks' future. In 765 in the main timeline, Trunks' timeline was at 785. This means that this trip would go two years into the future of Trunks' timeline. If we're following the above-mentioned rule, the main timeline would stand still while Trunks' future is fast-forwarded two years.

As you can see, this leads to a logical contradiction: both timelines would stand still from each other's perspectives for two years. For this reason, it must be the case that trips to the future fast-forward all timelines equally.

This also fits nicely with the idea that timelines are separate worlds. Just as all universes (1 thru 12) are affected equally by time travel, so should all timelines.
Timelines aren't frozen or fast-forwarded. Each timeline is still moving in the same exact pace. Time doesn't slow down or get faster in either timeline. Trunks leaves from the future at year X to go back in time to a alternate timeline in year X - y. It doesn't matter what the value of 'y' is, his own future will always be the same time he left, year X. He spends "b" years in the alternate timeline, then "b" years will also pass in the future timeline from where he was from. If he goes back to the future, he would go to year X+b. If he goes to the future before X+b, then he would have created another timeline.
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:03 am

He spends "b" years in the alternate timeline, then "b" years will also pass in the future timeline from where he was from.
I agree with this. Time spent in one timeline also passes in the other(s).
his own future will always be the same time he left, year X.
If that's true, then you cannot deny that time stands still in his future. In 765 in the main timeline, Trunks' future is at 785. In 767, Trunks' future is still at 785. Hence, time stood still in Trunks' future while the main timeline ran two years from 765 to 767.
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:27 am

Terra-jin wrote:If that's true, then you cannot deny that time stands still in his future. In 765 in the main timeline, Trunks' future is at 785. In 767, Trunks' future is still at 785. Hence, time stood still in Trunks' future while the main timeline ran two years from 765 to 767.
Time didn't freeze or stood still. An Age in one timeline is not equal to an Age in another timeline. The timelines are both flowing parallel but one time point does not equal another time point in another timeline. If Trunks comes from the future timeline (Age 785) to main timeline (Age 765), the year is still Age 785 in the future timeline. Now if he spent 2 years in the main timeline (Age 765+2=767), then 2 years have also passed in the future, (Age 785+2=787).

This is different however, if Trunks makes a first trip from Age 785 to Age 765, spends a day. Then goes back to the future to Age 785+1 day. Then makes a second trip to Age 767 of the main timeline. Here, the Age in the future is the same from when he left - Age 785+1 day. Time didn't freeze or stay still. It's just relative.
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:51 am

Hmmmm, we seem to be talking past each other. I agree with you on all points in your previous post. Perhaps this will clear things up:

1. Right before Trunks' second trip, it's 785 in his timeline.
2. Meanwhile, it's 765 in the main timeline.
3. After his second trip, it's 767 in the main timeline.
4. Meanwhile, (according to you) it's still 785 in Trunks' future.

Agreed on the above points?

You're correct that an age in one timeline is not equal to the age in the other timeline(s). After all, it's not 785 in both timelines. You're also correct that when Trunks leaves 785 in order to travel to 767 , his timeline's current age does not rewind to 767 .

Accepting all these premises, it still results in the conclusion that from 765 to 767 in the main timeline, Trunks' future remained at 785.

I think we agree on what happens when one travels to the past, but disagree on what happens when one travels to the future. When you travel y years to the past from year X, it's still year X in your home timeline, just as you said.

When you travel y years into the future from year X, I say all timelines are at year X + y, because I can demonstrate that the alternative leads to logical contradictions (see the example in my earlier post).

It may also help to point out that when Trunks traveled from 785 to 767, he actually traveled to the future - the future of the main timeline.
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:04 pm

Terra-jin wrote:Hmmmm, we seem to be talking past each other. I agree with you on all points in your previous post. Perhaps this will clear things up:

1. Right before Trunks' second trip, it's 785 in his timeline.
2. Meanwhile, it's 765 in the main timeline.
3. After his second trip, it's 767 in the main timeline.
4. Meanwhile, (according to you) it's still 785 in Trunks' future.

Agreed on the above points?

You're correct that an age in one timeline is not equal to the age in the other timeline(s). After all, it's not 785 in both timelines. You're also correct that when Trunks leaves 785 in order to travel to 767 , his timeline's current age does not rewind to 767 .

Accepting all these premises, it still results in the conclusion that from 765 to 767 in the main timeline, Trunks' future remained at 785.

I think we agree on what happens when one travels to the past, but disagree on what happens when one travels to the future. When you travel y years to the past from year X, it's still year X in your home timeline, just as you said.

When you travel y years into the future from year X, I say all timelines are at year X + y, because I can demonstrate that the alternative leads to logical contradictions (see the example in my earlier post).

It may also help to point out that when Trunks traveled from 785 to 767, he actually traveled to the future - the future of the main timeline.
I agree with all these points. I'm just saying that time doesn't freeze or stand still, but that it is always flowing. We agree on the same points, but perhaps the wording or explanation of it is different.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Terra-jin » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:17 pm

Fair enough. I'd propose this formulation:

If someone travels 'y' years into the future (of any timeline), all timelines are advanced 'y' years.

The implication of this rule is that Trunks' future is at 787 after he arrives in 767, not 785.
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:25 pm

Terra-jin wrote:Fair enough. I'd propose this formulation:

If someone travels 'y' years into the future (of any timeline), all timelines are advanced 'y' years.

The implication of this rule is that Trunks' future is at 787 after he arrives in 767, not 785.
Oh ok, well this is where we disagree. I'm saying it is still Age 785 not 787 in the future even when he travels from Age 767. We already know what year it was when Trunks returned to the future from the past. His first trip was from Age 784 to Age 764. He returned to Age 784 in the future and spent 1 year. Then he returned to the past, but 3 years later from Age 785 to Age 767. Then, when he returned back to the future, it is still Age 785. He killed the Androids in Age 785 and then killed Cell in Age 788.

Hence, if your theory that the future timeline is fast forwarded were true, then the year in the future after he returned after the Cell Saga should have been Age 787, but it was not.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
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Re: Dragon Ball Timelines Revisited

Post by Cipher » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:37 pm

This was perhaps a bit verbose, and I wish the video-game information had been left out for clarity, but --

It's all correct! Paradoxes are identified correctly, as are the origins for each timeline split. I can sign off on this breakdown.

And yes, we end up with seven timelines total: six related to the events of the series, one identified by the manga's dialogue about the Universe 12 time-traveler, should you choose to include that.
Last edited by Cipher on Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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