Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

[Darkprince410]

How did you come with this statement again? Goku never mentioned nor went SSJ3 as Vegetto. If something, he meant SSJ Vegetto.

He simply said that fusing with Vegeta would prove to likely not be effective against Beerus, and that logically would mean the best that Vegetto could offer, which would be Super Saiyan 3.

They never went SSJ3 as Vegetto so Goku don't know how strong they would become and if it would be enough to beat Beerus. The only comparison he had was Vegetto SSJ and that was even his (slightly) weaker version from Buu saga. You can't say SSJG being stronger than hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto from BoG is a fact. It's just a theory. Also, in this case it wasn't only about raw power but also god ki which was needed for Goku's attacks to be effective against Beerus.

Goku knows how powerful Super Saiyan 3 is in comparison to Super Saiyan, so he can easily extrapolate from there. Likewise, it is never said or suggested at any point that godly ki is needed to be effective against Beerus.

[Miracles]

Excuse me, it was Yamamuro who quoted Toriyama...

...I handled the roughs for Super Saiyan God. It was “a being that surpasses everything” so I drew a character more built than Super Saiyan, with a cape, but then illustrations with a completely different feel came back from Toriyama-sensei….

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -yamamuro/

How much does this even account for anything now? Toriyama said Whis was a 15, Beerus was a 10 and Goku was a 6.

That was obviously retconned away. This is just something that Toriyama happened to tell a member of staff, long before he'd even thought of any possible stories to come after ward.

Just in the material itself, all were told us that Fusion wouldn't be enough to to beat Beerus. Super Saiyan God wasn't enough either though.

Then between how powerful Super Saiyan Kefla and Super Saiyan Gogeta are, both stronger than Super Saiyan Blue...then maybe this was how it always was.

Rather than overcomplicating it maybe Super Saiyan Vegito just was stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku.

There is the narrative solely pointing out that only Super Saiyan god would be a challenge for Beerus. Not fusion, not anything else. Hence why Goku doubted fusion even working.

[Bullza]

There is the narrative solely pointing out that only Super Saiyan god would be a challenge for Beerus. Not fusion, not anything else. Hence why Goku doubted fusion even working.

Well there was back that backt hen sure and it was I saw it too. Now though you've got the very obvious fact that Super Saiyan Gogeta is far stronger than Super Saiyan Saiyan Blue.

Meaning the earlier belief from Battle of Gods may not be as it was originally seen to be. It seemed like Super Saiyan God was better than Fusion but now we know that it isn't.

So if Super Saiyan God is weaker than now then maybe it always was and we assumed wrong.

[Miracles]

There is the narrative solely pointing out that only Super Saiyan god would be a challenge for Beerus. Not fusion, not anything else. Hence why Goku doubted fusion even working.

Well there was back that backt hen sure and it was I saw it too. Now though you've got the very obvious fact that Super Saiyan Gogeta is far stronger than Super Saiyan Saiyan Blue.

Meaning the earlier belief from Battle of Gods may not be as it was originally seen to be. It seemed like Super Saiyan God was better than Fusion but now we know that it isn't.

So if Super Saiyan God is weaker than now then maybe it always was and we assumed wrong.

You are talking about a godless fusion back then. Now you are talking a fusion with god modes. Even absorbed god power in Super Saiyan modes. It's simple evolution in power.

[Bullza]

You are talking about a godless fusion back then. Now you are talking a fusion with god modes. Even absorbed god power in Super Saiyan modes. It's simple evolution in power.

I was just talking about Super Saiyan Gogeta and any comparison to Super Saiyan Vegito. It's unclear whether they have any God Power in their Super Saiyan still.

Somehow Super Saiyan God back then was above Super Saiyan Vegito back then but now Super Saiyan Gogeta is above Super Saiyan Blue. Why?

[SSJgogeto]

So base/SS1 Gogeta does better against Broly than God Goku.

I don't take it seriously, actually. In the same movie Goku fought for a little while against Rage Broly in his base and Super Saiyan forms.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You are talking about a godless fusion back then. Now you are talking a fusion with god modes. Even absorbed god power in Super Saiyan modes. It's simple evolution in power.

I was just talking about Super Saiyan Gogeta and any comparison to Super Saiyan Vegito. It's unclear whether they have any God Power in their Super Saiyan still.

Somehow Super Saiyan God back then was above Super Saiyan Vegito back then but now Super Saiyan Gogeta is above Super Saiyan Blue. Why?

The way I see it, it's all about that potential power.

Back then, Goku and Vegeta hadn't realized the higher potential they can reach. But now? Now, they've gotten unfathomably stronger than before, closing the gap on the god forms in their regular states and just growing more powerful with each passing major event.

They not only are boosted by their higher level of power, but ALSO the ceiling of potential they can hit together compared to back then. Back then, SS3 was the ceiling. But now, SSB is.

[Miracles]

You are talking about a godless fusion back then. Now you are talking a fusion with god modes. Even absorbed god power in Super Saiyan modes. It's simple evolution in power.

I was just talking about Super Saiyan Gogeta and any comparison to Super Saiyan Vegito. It's unclear whether they have any God Power in their Super Saiyan still.

Somehow Super Saiyan God back then was above Super Saiyan Vegito back then but now Super Saiyan Gogeta is above Super Saiyan Blue. Why?

Super Saiyan god was introduced as the strongest form and best match against Beerus. It was explicitly stated in BOG and by Toriyama that Goku absorbed god powers in his modes. Toriyama stated after Goku's fiight with Beerus he realized mastering his normal and SSJ state would increase his power more and sap less strength. A Super Saiyan three Vegetto wouldn't have any of those type of boosts in BOG. Naturally a fused character down the line with all that growth would be greater in SSJ.

[Tai Lung]

So base/SS1 Gogeta does better against Broly than God Goku. Yet In BoG Goku speculates that fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus and doesn't suggest fusion again after getting SSGod...

Is this an inconsistency?

Going by manga logic here not anime... (Broly movie fits both)

If we are assuming goku didn't “absorb god into base”
or whatever, Vegeta and Goku saying they are about at their limit when they enter the Roat. And most gains come from mastering blue.... there shouldn't be a base Gogeta able to beat a hypothetical SS3 Vegito should there... The amount stronger the base saiyans would have to overcome like 400 times....

You see where I'm confused?

Vegito base (TOP)> = SSJG >>> Vegito base (BOG)
It is not that difficult really after the training with whis although they did not improve drastically in base if they did it in the best use of the god ki with respect to the new transformations
probably the mergers can get the best of both parties and their training with the god ki despite not being transformed also rivality bonus and Potara Earrings increase a lot

[Bullza]

Super Saiyan god was introduced as the strongest form and best match against Beerus. It was explicitly stated in BOG and by Toriyama that Goku absorbed god powers in his modes. Toriyama stated after Goku's fiight with Beerus he realized mastering his normal and SSJ state would increase his power more and sap less strength.

But it was years ago that he said this. It was before he even knew there was going to be another movie. He also said that Beerus was a 10 and Goku a 6, that Beerus used 70% of his power, that he probably wouldn't use these other Super Saiyan forms again.

Things have obviously changed since then. Beerus is over 20 times as strong as Super Saiyan Blue, Goku has used Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multiple times. People also thought before the Universe 6 saga that Goku couldn't turn Super Saiyan God anymore because all that power was in his Base form. They thought he couldn't turn Super Saiyan anymore because Blue was what he changed into instead.

And these things all changed. Yeah at the time Super Saiyan God was probably intended to be the strongest but now it might not be that way.

[Miracles]

Super Saiyan god was introduced as the strongest form and best match against Beerus. It was explicitly stated in BOG and by Toriyama that Goku absorbed god powers in his modes. Toriyama stated after Goku's fiight with Beerus he realized mastering his normal and SSJ state would increase his power more and sap less strength.

But it was years ago that he said this. It was before he even knew there was going to be another movie. He also said that Beerus was a 10 and Goku a 6, that Beerus used 70% of his power, that he probably wouldn't use these other Super Saiyan forms again.

Things have obviously changed since then. Beerus is over 20 times as strong as Super Saiyan Blue, Goku has used Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multiple times. People also thought before the Universe 6 saga that Goku couldn't turn Super Saiyan God anymore because all that power was in his Base form. They thought he couldn't turn Super Saiyan anymore because Blue was what he changed into instead.

And these things all changed. Yeah at the time Super Saiyan God was probably intended to be the strongest but now it might not be that way.

Toriyama himself after even stated that Goku could still change into god. That's why god was shown again in anime/manga. Also, DBS even had Goku and Vegeta training in their base modes for better power ups as well. The plot points always continued it's just the fandom using headcannon as always to fit their desires.

[Bullza]

The plot points always continued it's just the fandom using headcannon as always to fit their desires.

I'm not really sure why it would be necessary to have head canon. There was never anything said directly in the movie or anime that made Super Saiyan God out to be stronger than Super Saiyan Fusion.

It was just something we all kind of figured was the case because it seemed logical but if there's now two things that show for a fact the complete opposite then it seems easier to just say we assumed wrong than to create head canon.

[Hugo Boss]

It was explicitly stated in BOG and by Toriyama that Goku absorbed god powers in his modes. Toriyama stated after Goku's fiight with Beerus he realized mastering his normal and SSJ state would increase his power more and sap less strength.

So, Goku shrunk the gap between his forms, but fusion kept the same boost. Interesting.

[Miracles]

The plot points always continued it's just the fandom using headcannon as always to fit their desires.

I'm not really sure why it would be necessary to have head canon. There was never anything said directly in the movie or anime that made Super Saiyan God out to be stronger than Super Saiyan Fusion.

It was just something we all kind of figured was the case because it seemed logical but if there's now two things that show for a fact the complete opposite then it seems easier to just say we assumed wrong than to create head canon.

Goku himself doubted that fusion would beat Beerus. The oracle fish prophecy confirmed all of this when the narrative blatantly stated that only a Super Saiyan god would give Beerus a match. Even Yamammuro quoted Toriyama saying god surpasses everything. Yes it would be headcannon to suggest otherwise.

It was explicitly stated in BOG and by Toriyama that Goku absorbed god powers in his modes. Toriyama stated after Goku's fiight with Beerus he realized mastering his normal and SSJ state would increase his power more and sap less strength.

So, Goku shrunk the gap between his forms, but fusion kept the same boost. Interesting.

No that would naturally mean fusions modes would increase much more too. Being that it's two people after the fusees new training and found power combined.

[Speedster]

Some people here are focusing too much on weather Vegetto could go SSJ3 in BoGs but that is completely irrelevant to this apparent inconsistency.

During Battle of Gods, Goku after he was nonchalantly beaten by Beerus, stated that even fusion wouldn’t work. Then Goku turned Super Saiyan God and the powerup was stated to be in a different realm than anything Goku could ever imagine. And that massive power was subsequently put into display in an epic clash against Beerus. Not just that but the SSJG powerup even grew bigger during that fight. Ever since BoGs, Goku got massively stronger. He unlocked a stronger form, the Super Saiyan Blue, and he also got progressively stronger while in that form too (through training with Whis, 3 years in RoSAT, completing/mastering better SSJB, improving against Zamasu, improving throughout ToP, etc). So, by the time of the Broly movie it is safe to say that SSJB>>SSJG as a power up.

Yet against Broly (SSJ Broly), SSJB Goku (even together with SSJB Vegeta) were absolutely helpless but fusing into Gogeta and turning SSJ1 was more than enough to keep up with SSJ Broly, who actually had to power up further in order to keep up with SSJ1 Gogeta who was also displaying progressively more power during the fight.

So how does this add up? I mean SSJG went from being a powerup that was way larger than fusing and turning SSJ1 (and most likely SSJ3 too) into being a puny powerup in comparison. The explanation lies on the fact that (regardless of whether you see the powerup as a boost or a multiplier) Goku retained some of the SSJG powerup in his base (either in a form of a fixed added boost or a fixed percentage of the true SSJG power up) so in numbers (for indicative purposes only):

base Goku (BoGs, pre-SSG ritual)=1
SSJG (BoGs, post ritual)= 1 million
Apparent SSJG power-up=1millionx

Base Goku (immediately after BoGs)= 1000
SSJG Goku (immediately after BoGs)= 1 million
Apparent SSJG power-up=1000x

On the other hand, fusing is a fixed multiplier (say 500x). Then turning SSJ1 is another multiplier (50x according to Freeza-arc logic guidebooks) so the combined product (25000x) can be much larger than the apparent SSJG multiplier right now.

[Bullza]

Goku himself doubted that fusion would beat Beerus. The oracle fish prophecy confirmed all of this when the narrative blatantly stated that only a Super Saiyan god would give Beerus a match.

And that doubt is still justified because we know that Fusion wouldn't have beaten Beerus. We know that Super Saiyan God Goku didn't beat Beerus either.

But nothing directly said that Super Saiyan God was superior to Fusion. It's alright to assume that was the case because of the narrative at the time, but that was never actually said for certain and the current state of things shows the complete opposite.

Even Yamammuro quoted Toriyama saying god surpasses everything. Yes it would be headcannon to suggest otherwise.

But again that's nothing more than a quote. It has no bearing on the movie or anime. It was just something that one person quoted another person as saying behind the scenes for a movie where no follow up was planned.

This holds as much merit now as Beerus being a 10 and Goku a 6.

[Miracles]

Goku himself doubted that fusion would beat Beerus. The oracle fish prophecy confirmed all of this when the narrative blatantly stated that only a Super Saiyan god would give Beerus a match.

And that doubt is still justified because we know that Fusion wouldn't have beaten Beerus. We know that Super Saiyan God Goku didn't beat Beerus either.

But nothing directly said that Super Saiyan God was superior to Fusion. It's alright to assume that was the case because of the narrative at the time, but that was never actually said for certain and the current state of things shows the complete opposite.

Even Yamammuro quoted Toriyama saying god surpasses everything. Yes it would be headcannon to suggest otherwise.

But again that's nothing more than a quote. It has no bearing on the movie or anime. It was just something that one person quoted another person as saying behind the scenes for a movie where no follow up was planned.

This holds as much merit now as Beerus being a 10 and Goku a 6.

When Goku doubted fusion, right after, he considered Super Saiyan god as a better alternative. Even tho god didn't beat Beerus, the narrative put it as the better assault against him.

[Bullza]

When Goku doubted fusion, right after, he considered Super Saiyan god as a better alternative. Even tho god didn't beat Beerus, the narrative put it as the better assault against him.

He didn't say it was a better alternative, he even wondered if it was another Saiyan that was just named God.

Of course for the time, them saying Fusion isn't good enough only to then have a new thing that ends up being used for the final battle instead would naturally lead you to believe it was superior.

But that was then, that's old news now and we have new information that points to otherwise. I'm not talking about what the intention might have been back in 2013, I'm talking about if that still stands with what we now know in 2019.

There's a lot of things we thought at one point only for it to be wrong later.

[PFM18]

It was very explicitly shown that SSG was a better option than potara fusion at the time of BoG. That narrative premise doesn't suddenly become untrue now.

I think the most logical conclusion is the widely held belief on other forums; that after Goku had adapted to the power of SSG and made it his own, transforming into the form again logically shouldn't yield the same boost when he accesses it again. Him making the power his own, but it stilll yielding the same power increase, makes absolutely no sense. He still gains power from making use of God Ki and SSG is still the superior transformation to other forms, but it is no longer the astronomical power boost anymore. We see this to be true with SSG Goku vs U6 Saiyans, SSG Goku vs Kefla, and now again in the movie. Since the ritual, it has never again been depicted as that large of a boost. Hell, when Goku first uses SSG again in episode 101, Whis just says it's faster than SSJ, but uses less stamina than SSB. He certainly didn't appear to be describing it as something that is magnitudes different from normal SSJ.

So it follows that:

SSG(pre-ritual)>.potara fusion
SSG(post-ritual)<potara fusion

It's pretty clear imo

[Miracles]

When Goku doubted fusion, right after, he considered Super Saiyan god as a better alternative. Even tho god didn't beat Beerus, the narrative put it as the better assault against him.

He didn't say it was a better alternative, he even wondered if it was another Saiyan that was just named God.

Of course for the time, them saying Fusion isn't good enough only to then have a new thing that ends up being used for the final battle instead would naturally lead you to believe it was superior.

But that was then, that's old news now and we have new information that points to otherwise. I'm not talking about what the intention might have been back in 2013, I'm talking about if that still stands with what we now know in 2019.

There's a lot of things we thought at one point only for it to be wrong later.

The story said, through the oracle fish, only Saiyan god would be a match for Beerus. As a matter of fact, an arch rival. Goku even told Beerus that he had him in a bind. That NO MATTER what he did he couldn't beat Beerus. That also includes fusion. Proven by the fact that Goku took the trouble to go and gather the Dragonballs and get info on the Saiyan god from Shenron. Also took a huge shot at his pride to use the power of other Saiyan's to achieve god just to try and save the earth. It was the last resort and the better alternative. The narrative showed/displayed the Z team had no hope but Super Saiyan god as the strongest choice to face Beerus then.

There is nothing that contradicts this. Nowhere was it stated that a single super saiyan god > fusion with god powers in the story. The purpose of introducing god was to show it was the greatest thing that came before it [The purpose of Yammauro's quote from Toriyama] in order To open a whole new world for Goku. Anything else is headcannon.