"DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2661
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

"DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:03 pm

Alright, now that most people have thoroughly digested the latest entry into the DBS story, I think it's finally time I give you all my take on how Broly is the missing link, so to speak, between Saiyans and their immense potential for growth.

You know, from a Watsonian perspective rather than "because plot/Toriyama/raisins".

Bear in mind, the following will have open SPOILERS about the movie, so if you still haven't watched the film yet and don't want to be spoiled, turn back now. You've been warned on SPOILERS.

Alright, with that disclaimer outta the way, let's begin.

===

Broly
First of all, we'll talk about the man of the hour himself, the broccoli infused mutant! As revealed in the film, the source of Broly's immense power compared to even fellow Saiyans like Goku and Vegeta is his ability to tap into the immense overwhelming strength of an Oozaru, a Great Ape, even while lacking a tail and still in his Human form. Of course, if this were the end of it, it wouldn't seem so impressive compared to the many colours of the Super Saiyan. But that's not all! Turns out, his Oozaru boosts are quite potent overall, allowing him to quickly overtake SS Vegeta whilst retaining that power in his normal base form.

When Vegeta decides to go SSG, he quickly overwhelms even Broly's enhanced regular base form. But it's at this point where he loses control of himself, becoming infused with a green aura, yellow irises, and immense strength that allows him to take on SSG Vegeta and, later on when he seems to power up in this new Oozaru Base further, SSB Goku.

Even then, he still manages to turn Super Saiyan on top of this level after Freeza kills his father Paragus, gaining blank eyes and even less self-control. Finally, when Gogeta takes to the stage and proves his superior in combat skill as a fellow Super Saiyan, he powers up with more Oozaru strength into Super Saiyan Full-Power, allowing him to somewhat stand against SSB Gogeta albeit still weaker and on the losing end.

So, now that we've established how Broly's power works, let's see how my insanity will attempt to apply this to Saiyan growth as a whole!

===

Transformations
In the film, when Vegeta and Goku transform into the Super Saiyan level of their base and SSG forms respectively, there are neat little artistic choices when they do so. Vegeta's hair briefly turns green before becoming the classic golden yellow of Super Saiyan, and SSG Goku's aura goes from a Super Saiyan yellow to a deep green before he turns SSB. Some may chalk this up to simple artistic pizzazz, but this is the In-Universe Thread, so we don't let that fly :lol:

I believe that this is a sign of the 2 of them using their Oozaru heritage to tap into higher levels of power. They can't necessarily use this strength like Broly does, but they never lost access to this primal power and use it as a means of leap-frogging to higher forms more easily. I also think that this could provide a good explanation for other forms we haven't got much explanation for recently, like Future Trunks's Super Saiyan Rage form and Kale's Super Saiyan Berserk form.

For Future Trunks, we see that he initially has blank eyes like Broly, and he also buffs up briefly in his Human form before slimming back down; he also has a blue tint to his otherwise golden aura. My belief on this matter is that Super Saiyan Rage is the result of Future Trunks tapping into his innate Oozaru power but not being able to fully utilize it like Broly can due to being a Half-Saiyan, having no tail for the longest time, and having had access to regular Super Saiyan first.

So why is Kale here, if the Universe 6 Saiyans evolved past the need for tails? Buckle up, because this is where the real meat of this Watsonian theory for Broly's Oozaru potential comes into play!

===

Universe 6's Saiyans
We now come to possible the most insane part, Universe 6 Saiyans and Oozaru potential. I believe that Broly is a spiritual missing link, so to speak, between Universe 6 and 7 Saiyans. Not literally, mind you, just in the figurative sense.

Many people have complained about U6 Saiyans like Cabba and Caulifla being so strong with no indication as to why they'd end up this way. Well, this theory goes towards addressing that. Let's go back to the tails, again. U6 Saiyans evolved past the need for tails, but why would this be so? I theorize that, like Broly, the species as a whole learned how to tap into their innate Oozaru power in their Human forms, thus meaning that they wouldn't need tails to transform anymore. So why aren't they all ticking time bombs like Broly was?

I think it's the fact that the species had a lesser mutation compared to Broly. In my mind, what they did was closer to Broly's initial Oozaru boost that he gained against Super Saiyan Vegeta, whereby a hint of that power showed itself before stabilizing back into a boosted but otherwise normal base form. They retained this immense power permanently but otherwise couldn't rage out and lose control of it like Broly did. This means that, combined with the U6 Saiyans not dying all the time and being nice enough to properly train and grow stronger together, U6 Saiyans would end up many of times stronger than the U7 Saiyans would've ever ended up even if they did survive. They're all pretty chill folks. Well. almost all of them. Enter Kale, a shy U6 Saiyan girl with immense potential.

===

Kale
When we're introduced to her, Caulifla sure of her high potential even though she's extremely shy and awkward. She can't even properly turn Super Saiyan despite being showed how to do it the easy way. However, once she gets properly angry, she suddenly explodes into Super Saiyan Berserk. While the form came first, I believe that Broly's Super Saiyan Full-Power can retroactively be considered the same type of form and explain how it works.

Kale is clearly a mutant, but she exploded into SSFP instead of building up into it like Broly. My belief is that, like Broly, she's a mutant who can lose all self-control and be taken over by the power of Oozaru. The difference lies in how it manifested. Kale had a repressed sense of self, so when she broke, she REALLY broke and raged out. So, on top of the normal moment of rage where she'd turn Super Saiyan, she ALSO could've gained the uncontrollable might of an Oozaru at the exact same time, thus explaining why she went SSFP first before gaining her regular Super Saiyan form.

===

So there we have it. My own little theory on how DBS's Broly explains Saiyan potential, power, and connects everything neatly. What do you guys think? Agree? Disagree? Feel free to tell me in follow-up posts, and we can discuss this.

User avatar
Tsufuru
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:16 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by Tsufuru » Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:26 pm

kale got nothing to do with oozaru and is just a OG broly homage.
nothing to do with what new broly is and how his powers work.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2661
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:00 pm

Tsufuru wrote:kale got nothing to do with oozaru and is just a OG broly homage.
nothing to do with what new broly is and how his powers work.
Why shouldn't she?

Sure, it's retroactive, but it's not like Toriyama hasn't done that before. Heck, having an explanation tied to the new Broly would go a long way in helping to alleviate vocal dissent. This is just a theory, one I think has a lot of merit. So, what in-universe evidence (as this IS the In-Universe thread) do you have to support your side of the argument?

I want to generate legitimate discussion, so I'd appreciate more than just flyby shootdowns.

===

[EDIT]:
You know, what do you think are the flaws in my reasoning, or what alternatives do you think could explain where I posited my theory? Remember this is the In-Universe thread, so try and stick to Watsonian logic.

User avatar
Brettjr25
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 228
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:54 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by Brettjr25 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:14 pm

Interesting idea. The idea that Broly is the missing link can work. I always thought the new implication was that Broly is a more Oozaru Saiyan than normal Saiyans, which would explain his berserker personality when he taps into his power.

So this is what we know:

Vegeta claimed at the time that the tail was the saiyans true power.

Broly can tap into the power without his tail.

Saiyans evolved to not have tails in a different universe.

If Saiyans are a warrior race, why would they evolve to be weaker and if they don't have tails then they should still be able to tap into the oozaru power. So it seems feasible even if they look like a race of noodle limps losers.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2661
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:30 pm

Brettjr25 wrote:Interesting idea. The idea that Broly is the missing link can work. I always thought the new implication was that Broly is a more Oozaru Saiyan than normal Saiyans, which would explain his berserker personality when he taps into his power.

So this is what we know:

Vegeta claimed at the time that the tail was the saiyans true power.

Broly can tap into the power without his tail.

Saiyans evolved to not have tails in a different universe.

If Saiyans are a warrior race, why would they evolve to be weaker and if they don't have tails then they should still be able to tap into the oozaru power. So it seems feasible even if they look like a race of noodle limps losers.
And with Vegeta commenting on Kale and wondering if this is the Saiyans' true form, it retroactively works even better, at least if my theory is in anyway possible.

It'd mean that Kale is expressing the full natural potential of a Saiyan like Broly did, relying on the strength of both Super Saiyan AND Oozaru without anything else like SSG, which is a Universe 7 thing due to Yamoshi's role in Saiyan history, or Ultra Instinct, which lies on extremely rare and once-in-a-blue-moon conditions despite being potentially present in all martial artists.

I doubt that Toriyama or Toei will ever run with this idea retroactively, but it's fun to think about.

User avatar
Tsufuru
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:16 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by Tsufuru » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:22 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tsufuru wrote:kale got nothing to do with oozaru and is just a OG broly homage.
nothing to do with what new broly is and how his powers work.
Why shouldn't she?

Sure, it's retroactive, but it's not like Toriyama hasn't done that before. Heck, having an explanation tied to the new Broly would go a long way in helping to alleviate vocal dissent. This is just a theory, one I think has a lot of merit. So, what in-universe evidence (as this IS the In-Universe thread) do you have to support your side of the argument?

I want to generate legitimate discussion, so I'd appreciate more than just flyby shootdowns.

===

[EDIT]:
You know, what do you think are the flaws in my reasoning, or what alternatives do you think could explain where I posited my theory? Remember this is the In-Universe thread, so try and stick to Watsonian logic.
the fact that kale is just a broly clone while new broly got his own transformation?
its not a flyby shootdown , its how it is in-universe.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2661
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:45 pm

Tsufuru wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tsufuru wrote:kale got nothing to do with oozaru and is just a OG broly homage.
nothing to do with what new broly is and how his powers work.
Why shouldn't she?

Sure, it's retroactive, but it's not like Toriyama hasn't done that before. Heck, having an explanation tied to the new Broly would go a long way in helping to alleviate vocal dissent. This is just a theory, one I think has a lot of merit. So, what in-universe evidence (as this IS the In-Universe thread) do you have to support your side of the argument?

I want to generate legitimate discussion, so I'd appreciate more than just flyby shootdowns.

===

[EDIT]:
You know, what do you think are the flaws in my reasoning, or what alternatives do you think could explain where I posited my theory? Remember this is the In-Universe thread, so try and stick to Watsonian logic.
the fact that kale is just a broly clone while new broly got his own transformation?
its not a flyby shootdown , its how it is in-universe.
No, that's Doylist reasoning. The kale part is directly referencing her old-Broly design inspiration a.k.a. the production side of things, which doesn't fly around here. What I want to know is WHY is Kale's form is different beyond "it's different".

Use some extra thinking and evidence. What separates Broly from Kale beyond the time and conditions of their character creation?

User avatar
Tsufuru
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:16 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by Tsufuru » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:17 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Tsufuru wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Why shouldn't she?

Sure, it's retroactive, but it's not like Toriyama hasn't done that before. Heck, having an explanation tied to the new Broly would go a long way in helping to alleviate vocal dissent. This is just a theory, one I think has a lot of merit. So, what in-universe evidence (as this IS the In-Universe thread) do you have to support your side of the argument?

I want to generate legitimate discussion, so I'd appreciate more than just flyby shootdowns.

===

[EDIT]:
You know, what do you think are the flaws in my reasoning, or what alternatives do you think could explain where I posited my theory? Remember this is the In-Universe thread, so try and stick to Watsonian logic.
the fact that kale is just a broly clone while new broly got his own transformation?
its not a flyby shootdown , its how it is in-universe.
No, that's Doylist reasoning. The kale part is directly referencing her old-Broly design inspiration a.k.a. the production side of things, which doesn't fly around here. What I want to know is WHY is Kale's form is different beyond "it's different".

Use some extra thinking and evidence. What separates Broly from Kale beyond the time and conditions of their character creation?
what are you talking about?
there is no extra thinking and evidence.
its diffrent becouse its diffrent.
kale‘s power and form got nothing to do with oozaru while broly‘s power and form comes from using oozaru in human form.
kale‘s transformation got nothing to do with new broly‘s power.
Kale was not even referenced in the movie and broly’s form and power as handled as something new which it is.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2661
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:28 pm

Tsufuru wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
what are you talking about?
there is no extra thinking and evidence.
its diffrent becouse its diffrent.
kale‘s power and form got nothing to do with oozaru while broly‘s power and form comes from using oozaru in human form.
kale‘s transformation got nothing to do with new broly‘s power.
Kale was not even referenced in the movie and broly’s form and power as handled as something new which it is.
Retroactively, it could be used to explain U6 Saiyan growth and Kale's own unique mutation. As well, because the U6 Saiyans had this evolutionary path for awhile, it'd make sense that their version works slightly differently compared to the U7 Saiyans.

The only one who actually says anything relevant to the fact about Broly is Goku, who wonders if Vegeta's ever seen a Saiyan like Broly during the moment where he first goes berserk in his Human Oozaru form. Although Paragus comments on it, it makes sense he doesn't know since he's been out of the loop of current events for the past 4 decades. Also, Broly was in his base form when he utilized this power and not in Super Saiyan, which only happened later with Super Saiyan Full-Power which is the main frame of reference that resembles Kale's Super Saiyan Berserk form.

The similarities with Kale started to begin in that state, and by that point Gogeta had taken to the stage and was only concerned with taking Broly down. Also, my theory still accounts for your supposed holes because, in addition to Goku and Vegeta not learning about SSFP until they were Gogeta, Kale only went DOWN from SS Berserk to a regular Super Saiyan form. Thus, she never displayed the same kind of Human Oozaru base form that Broly utilized and wouldn't come to mind when he used that power.

Much like how Goku and Vegeta defusing against Gohan-Buu was retconned into the Potaras having a time limit for mortals with the advent of Merged Zamasu, so too could Broly's Oozaru power retroactively explain U6 Saiyan strength.

===

[EDIT]:
Also, a lot of that is still Doylist reasoning or just plain bad. Like, WHY is it different? How do the mechanics of it from a Watsonian perspective differ from Broly's Oozaru power? Throw me a bone here and get some real discussion going on what you think the alternative could be. In-Universe thread, remember?

ankokudaishogun
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:37 pm

Food for thought: u6 Saiyans don't appear to have a legend about the Super Saiyan. They have a legend about the Devil Saiyan (in the manga)

That said, hypothesis time:

Saiyans are stronger with their tails.
U6 Saiyans evolved to not need the tail to access that power: if a tail-less u7 Saiyan is, say, 80% a u6 Saiyan is always 100%.
It resulted in them unable to go Ozaru, the genes for it going recessive .

The genes only manifest in one-every-1000-years Saiyan, where chance activate those sleeping genes: the legendary devil Saiyan.
Basically, they become human-sized Ozaru and end up dying because their bodies don't have the pieces to sustain that power.

Sub-hypothesis: they are much more common, but most aren't strong enough to trigger the Super Saiyan transformation so they end up as just random non consequential violent people.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2661
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:11 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:Food for thought: u6 Saiyans don't appear to have a legend about the Super Saiyan. They have a legend about the Devil Saiyan (in the manga)

That said, hypothesis time:

Saiyans are stronger with their tails.
U6 Saiyans evolved to not need the tail to access that power: if a tail-less u7 Saiyan is, say, 80% a u6 Saiyan is always 100%.
It resulted in them unable to go Ozaru, the genes for it going recessive .

The genes only manifest in one-every-1000-years Saiyan, where chance activate those sleeping genes: the legendary devil Saiyan.
Basically, they become human-sized Ozaru and end up dying because their bodies don't have the pieces to sustain that power.

Sub-hypothesis: they are much more common, but most aren't strong enough to trigger the Super Saiyan transformation so they end up as just random non consequential violent people.
Interesting.

Admittedly, I forgot about the manga including that portion, though I don't think that necessarily invalidates my theory. I still believe that U6 Saiyans are SIGNIFICANTLY boosted by their Oozaru heritage, or at least their ancestors were. Like I highlighted in the main post, I think that what they had going, at least when they started to evolve past the need for tails, is akin to what Broly did against SS Vegeta, using Oozaru potential to adapt and quickly stabilize that strength.

As we see with Broly, having that going for him didn't stop him from going berserk with that power on top of what it already gave him. Though I do agree about the devil mutant legend being a once-in-a-1000-years deal where that power manifests. I just think that it functions the same as SSFP, where that primal and uncontrollable Oozaru power explodes along with the rage of an otherwise normal Super Saiyan to create the green-haired form.

In that sense, Broly was the U7 Saiyans' beginning of their transition into something more like U6 Saiyans, at least for me.

User avatar
Tsufuru
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:16 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by Tsufuru » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:19 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:28 pm
Tsufuru wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:[spoiler]
No, that's Doylist reasoning. The kale part is directly referencing her old-Broly design inspiration a.k.a. the production side of things, which doesn't fly around here. What I want to know is WHY is Kale's form is different beyond "it's different".

Use some extra thinking and evidence. What separates Broly from Kale beyond the time and conditions of their character creation?[/spoiler]
what are you talking about?
there is no extra thinking and evidence.
its diffrent becouse its diffrent.
kale‘s power and form got nothing to do with oozaru while broly‘s power and form comes from using oozaru in human form.
kale‘s transformation got nothing to do with new broly‘s power.
Kale was not even referenced in the movie and broly’s form and power as handled as something new which it is.
Retroactively, it could be used to explain U6 Saiyan growth and Kale's own unique mutation. As well, because the U6 Saiyans had this evolutionary path for awhile, it'd make sense that their version works slightly differently compared to the U7 Saiyans.

The only one who actually says anything relevant to the fact about Broly is Goku, who wonders if Vegeta's ever seen a Saiyan like Broly during the moment where he first goes berserk in his Human Oozaru form. Although Paragus comments on it, it makes sense he doesn't know since he's been out of the loop of current events for the past 4 decades. Also, Broly was in his base form when he utilized this power and not in Super Saiyan, which only happened later with Super Saiyan Full-Power which is the main frame of reference that resembles Kale's Super Saiyan Berserk form.

The similarities with Kale started to begin in that state, and by that point Gogeta had taken to the stage and was only concerned with taking Broly down. Also, my theory still accounts for your supposed holes because, in addition to Goku and Vegeta not learning about SSFP until they were Gogeta, Kale only went DOWN from SS Berserk to a regular Super Saiyan form. Thus, she never displayed the same kind of Human Oozaru base form that Broly utilized and wouldn't come to mind when he used that power.

Much like how Goku and Vegeta defusing against Gohan-Buu was retconned into the Potaras having a time limit for mortals with the advent of Merged Zamasu, so too could Broly's Oozaru power retroactively explain U6 Saiyan strength.

===

[EDIT]:
Also, a lot of that is still Doylist reasoning or just plain bad. Like, WHY is it different? How do the mechanics of it from a Watsonian perspective differ from Broly's Oozaru power? Throw me a bone here and get some real discussion going on what you think the alternative could be. In-Universe thread, remember?
dude , are you serios?
literaly NOTHING says or implies kale‘s power got anything to do with oozaru.
Kale simply got her own rage form in-universe.
broly got his own form in-universe.
literaly nothing you said proves ANYTHING.
its like you asking me why is ssj3 trbasformation diffrent than gohans ultimate state.
they use diffrent mechanics to get power one releases all of his potencial at once without a transformation the other one needs 3 power ups to get to his full power ssj ssj2 and ssj3.
i just told you WHY they are diffrent stop writing huge text‘s as if its complicated.
damn.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2661
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:59 pm

Tsufuru wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:19 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:28 pm
Tsufuru wrote: what are you talking about?
there is no extra thinking and evidence.
its diffrent becouse its diffrent.
kale‘s power and form got nothing to do with oozaru while broly‘s power and form comes from using oozaru in human form.
kale‘s transformation got nothing to do with new broly‘s power.
Kale was not even referenced in the movie and broly’s form and power as handled as something new which it is.
Retroactively, it could be used to explain U6 Saiyan growth and Kale's own unique mutation. As well, because the U6 Saiyans had this evolutionary path for awhile, it'd make sense that their version works slightly differently compared to the U7 Saiyans.

The only one who actually says anything relevant to the fact about Broly is Goku, who wonders if Vegeta's ever seen a Saiyan like Broly during the moment where he first goes berserk in his Human Oozaru form. Although Paragus comments on it, it makes sense he doesn't know since he's been out of the loop of current events for the past 4 decades. Also, Broly was in his base form when he utilized this power and not in Super Saiyan, which only happened later with Super Saiyan Full-Power which is the main frame of reference that resembles Kale's Super Saiyan Berserk form.

The similarities with Kale started to begin in that state, and by that point Gogeta had taken to the stage and was only concerned with taking Broly down. Also, my theory still accounts for your supposed holes because, in addition to Goku and Vegeta not learning about SSFP until they were Gogeta, Kale only went DOWN from SS Berserk to a regular Super Saiyan form. Thus, she never displayed the same kind of Human Oozaru base form that Broly utilized and wouldn't come to mind when he used that power.

Much like how Goku and Vegeta defusing against Gohan-Buu was retconned into the Potaras having a time limit for mortals with the advent of Merged Zamasu, so too could Broly's Oozaru power retroactively explain U6 Saiyan strength.

===

[EDIT]:
Also, a lot of that is still Doylist reasoning or just plain bad. Like, WHY is it different? How do the mechanics of it from a Watsonian perspective differ from Broly's Oozaru power? Throw me a bone here and get some real discussion going on what you think the alternative could be. In-Universe thread, remember?
dude , are you serios?
literaly NOTHING says or implies kale‘s power got anything to do with oozaru.
Kale simply got her own rage form in-universe.
broly got his own form in-universe.
literaly nothing you said proves ANYTHING.
its like you asking me why is ssj3 trbasformation diffrent than gohans ultimate state.
they use diffrent mechanics to get power one releases all of his potencial at once without a transformation the other one needs 3 power ups to get to his full power ssj ssj2 and ssj3.
i just told you WHY they are diffrent stop writing huge text‘s as if its complicated.
damn.
I am serious.

Nothing was ever stated on why Saiyans have the ability to turn Super Saiyan, but Toriyama later rectified that in an interview by saying that S-Cell quantity is what triggers the mutation.

I'm "complicating" things because this is the In-Universe Thread where we come up with In-Universe reasoning and evidence to support different arguments and create insightful discussion on the matters at hand. Right now, you are neither using In-Universe reasoning nor attempting to create insightful discussion.

I wanted this to be a fun topic where people can legitimately discuss the possibilities and come up with their own theories and ideas for how things could potentially work. For example, say someone disagreed like you did. Instead of saying "no, this is different", they'd say "no, this is different because [X] works on this [Y] principle" if we're trying to create lengthy and interesting debates.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4655
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:04 pm

I honestly don’t understand why someone thinks Broly’s and Kale’s forms work differently. They are the same form. Trunks is a different case, but it’s also very ease to relate his new power-up to Great Ape.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2661
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:19 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:04 pm I honestly don’t understand why someone thinks Broly’s and Kale’s forms work differently. They are the same form. Trunks is a different case, but it’s also very ease to relate his new power-up to Great Ape.
The way I see it, Future Trunks's SS Rage form is what happens when a Half-Saiyan's body rages out and attempts to use the power of Oozaru. He hasn't EVER had a tail, and he already knew Super Saiyan beforehand. His Super Saiyan and Oozaru power didn't fully mesh like they should've, thus resulting in a diluted gold and blue aura.

That's the theory for me, anyways. What sells it to me is the fact that his body started bulking up like Broly's did before slimming down; his body ALWAYS does that when he transforms. Heck, we can even apply it further to other moments!

For example, Vegeta's eyes went blank when he raged out against Beerus in the anime version of events. Maybe he temporarily tapped into Oozaru power in that moment as well. Heck, maybe ALL boosts in strength that aren't Zenkai or non-rage-form-related are partially due to Oozaru potential. Rage boosts, pride boosts, etc.

It'd be really cool if Broly's Oozaru power could be used to retroactively explain all of these moments as lesser forms of his perfect usage of this primal power.

ankokudaishogun
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:07 pm

Note: as SS2 Kale's body shrinked down.
Trunks goes SS1 Full Power but doesn't lose sense of himself so automatically switches back to SS2 form.
Hell, we know SS1 is actually the best form, so we can take SSRage as an alternative SS2.
That said why Kale's Buff SS is Berserk but Broly's is Full Power?

Also: Gohan burst of power when distressed.
Mating with humans enhance/accelerate the losing tail process. Hell, Gohan never experienced difference in power whether or not he had the tail.

Basically, losing the tail via evolution means getting a stable stats power up but also losing(or at least making it much harder to get) the ability to control Ape Rage whenever it comes out. Trunks and Gohan are exceptions because in them the process is incomplete.

Trunks blue aura is IMHO unrelated: he's instinctively gathering Genki, a process culminating with the Hope Sword.
I like to think Earth itself did choose to lend its power to him, having chosen him to be The Hero to fight the Archenemy (Zamasu).
Basically the reverse of Moro.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2661
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:30 am

ankokudaishogun wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:07 pm Note: as SS2 Kale's body shrinked down.
Trunks goes SS1 Full Power but doesn't lose sense of himself so automatically switches back to SS2 form.
Hell, we know SS1 is actually the best form, so we can take SSRage as an alternative SS2.
That said why Kale's Buff SS is Berserk but Broly's is Full Power?

Also: Gohan burst of power when distressed.
Mating with humans enhance/accelerate the losing tail process. Hell, Gohan never experienced difference in power whether or not he had the tail.

Basically, losing the tail via evolution means getting a stable stats power up but also losing(or at least making it much harder to get) the ability to control Ape Rage whenever it comes out. Trunks and Gohan are exceptions because in them the process is incomplete.

Trunks blue aura is IMHO unrelated: he's instinctively gathering Genki, a process culminating with the Hope Sword.
I like to think Earth itself did choose to lend its power to him, having chosen him to be The Hero to fight the Archenemy (Zamasu).
Basically the reverse of Moro.
Never thought about that angle with Future Trunks. Though, it does kinda fall apart when he displays it in other media like SDBH where he still has the blue-within-yellow aura in other timelines.

As for Kale and Broly, technically speaking, SS Berserk likely came first in terms of chronological development and so was named first. However, I think that, retroactively, it's functionally the same as Full-Power. As for "alternative SS2", it could be that Full-Power/Berserk is the "true" SS2. The forms themselves aren't drawing out further power from regular SS like SS2 and SS3 do, but instead seem to blend it with additional reserves from their Oozaru potential.

In this sense, Full-Power/Berserk is kinda like SSB. A mix of Super Saiyan and another source of power that Saiyans have access to, only in the case of SSB this is God Ki that's only made possible via godly training.

ankokudaishogun
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:47 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:30 am Never thought about that angle with Future Trunks. Though, it does kinda fall apart when he displays it in other media like SDBH where he still has the blue-within-yellow aura in other timelines.
Actually I think he doesn't ever use SSRage in post-plot Heroes missions. Only in the opening of Universal Mission?
Though we'd need somebody playing the game telling us whether he's in SS, SS2 o SSRage when he's a compulsory assist character(which means they are his "canon" fights)

Or he just retained the ability to gather Genki to power-up
As for Kale and Broly, technically speaking, SS Berserk likely came first in terms of chronological development and so was named first.
However, I think that, retroactively, it's functionally the same as Full-Power.
SSFP a name retcon o Berserk? It wouldn't be the first time, IIRC originally SS2 was actually SSGrade-5
As for "alternative SS2", it could be that Full-Power/Berserk is the "true" SS2. The forms themselves aren't drawing out further power from regular SS like SS2 and SS3 do, but instead seem to blend it with additional reserves from their Oozaru potential.
except Kale went SS->Berseker\FP->SS2, getting a power-up

So, either she did retain the Ozaru Power
Or the SS2 transformation is a greater multiplier than SSFP(as in: SS+Ozaru) and she could in theory stack Ozaru Power on SS2

In this sense, Full-Power/Berserk is kinda like SSB. A mix of Super Saiyan and another source of power that Saiyans have access to, only in the case of SSB this is God Ki that's only made possible via godly training.
I don't agree: Rage\SSFP means mixing an additive(Ozaru Power) to the normal fuel(normal ki) which might or might not having been ignited
Blue is using a completely different type of fuel(God Ki) then igniting it.

God Ki+Ozaru Power+Super Saiyan=Broly God?

User avatar
Bebi Hatchiyack
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 822
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:53 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:36 pm

About Trunks in Japanese his transformation is called Supa Saiya-jin Ikari the same ikari kanji from Broly (DBS) form.

They use this Kanji for both form 怒り

For Broly in japanese his form is called 怒りの状態 Ikari no Jōtai and for Mirai Trunks 超サイヤ人怒り Sūpā Saiya-jin Ikari. So for me since it's the same kanji that is use we can assume clearly that both form are connected.
Saiya-jin me, watashi ha kisama wo koroshimasu

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2661
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: "DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:31 pm

Bebi Hatchiyack wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:36 pm About Trunks in Japanese his transformation is called Supa Saiya-jin Ikari the same ikari kanji from Broly (DBS) form.

They use this Kanji for both form 怒り

For Broly in japanese his form is called 怒りの状態 Ikari no Jōtai and for Mirai Trunks 超サイヤ人怒り Sūpā Saiya-jin Ikari. So for me since it's the same kanji that is use we can assume clearly that both form are connected.
While likely not intended by the filmmakers, I do agree that it could retroactively be linked.

Certainly go a long way in addressing why this power seemed to come outta nowhere. Speaking of, this could explain almost ANY kinda sudden boost when the Saiyan character was beat down and seemingly helpless against an enemy beforehand.

Rage boosts being due to sudden bursts of Oozaru shining through would be an interesting addition to the lore, that's for sure.

Post Reply