Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

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Xeno Goku
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Xeno Goku » Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:09 am

ankokudaishogun wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:43 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:30 am
QuakingStar wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:41 pm The arcade is a video game, therefor it does not matter. They specifically omit and change things from the arcade version for the manga and even the anime. The arcade game only matters to the arcade game in terms of story and content. While the anime and manga also have differences to each other meaning the anime only matters to the anime and the manga only matters to the manga. In the manga and in the anime they treat SS4 and SSBlue as equals.
The Heroes arcade is the orginal source. In arcade and the manga Xeno Goku is more tired fighting blue than Blue Goku os fighting ss4.
I wouldn't use that element as proof: we don't "see" Goku:CC panting, be he's also speaking second and the next sentence has Goku:Xeno showing no sign of fatigue.
So, kinda unreliable.

What is VERY reliable is Goku:Xeno himself stating, explicitly, that Goku:CC in Blue is about one step stronger.

Of course, one has to remember Goku:Xeno is a much older Goku with different experiences.
It's both possible Goku:Xeno's base is so much higher than Goku:CC's that it lets him cover the difference in transformation power
Or, viceversa, SS4 is such a mighty transformation that let's an otherwise weaker non-God-Ki Goku:Xeno fight almost on par with with Blue.
You forget Xeno Goku and Xeno Vegeta appeared to help CC Goku. Both of them is equal to SSJ Cumber and later fusion into Vegito to fight against SSJ3 Cumber.

SSJB Goku and Vegeta can't beat base Cumber. That mean we know Xeno Goku get zenkai.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:27 pm

The damn heroes arcade is the same arcade that had yamcha capable of fighting somebody like Beerus. The arcade is only that, an arcade game. If you want to rely on the arcade as your only source of continuity then I just can't take you serious... it's a video game lmaoo

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:28 pm

SS4 and SSBlue are showed more equal than anything in the manga and the anime and both are actually story based alone without some BS like Yamcha taking on Beerus or something lmao

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Grimlock » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:46 pm

Please provide source of this "Yamcha capable of fighting somebody like Beerus". Otherwise none of us can take you seriously.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:20 am

you can literally pick yamcha on your team and fight against a beerus and win in that arcade game. my guy.... its.... a.... GAME. It is the origin of the series story but the story was ADAPTED and CHANGED for the anime version and the manga version. Why? because the heroes arcade game is just that... an arcade game.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:51 am

QuakingStar wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:20 am you can literally pick yamcha on your team and fight against a beerus and win in that arcade game. my guy.... its.... a.... GAME. It is the origin of the series story but the story was ADAPTED and CHANGED for the anime version and the manga version. Why? because the heroes arcade game is just that... an arcade game.
That's the game not the story and lore of said arcade game.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Grimlock » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:36 am

No, don't waste your time. He clearly doesn't know anything about anything. Now that we know he thinks just because a player decides to bring Yamcha into their team, that Yamcha is part of the story, we can't take him seriously.

He also seems to be a big Super Saiyan 4 fanboy, so just because the anime didn't have Xeno Goku himself saying that Goku is above him, he'll prefer that version over the source which blatantly says so. So it's a pointless discussion. Let's not waste our precious time.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Hulk10 » Mon May 03, 2021 2:14 am

Shouldn't we be more respectful of our fellow Kanzenshuu users?
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Grimlock » Mon May 03, 2021 2:29 am

Yeah, you're absolutely right. At the time I made that post I tried not to sound too harsh, but reviewing it now... oh well, definitely could have worded that better. I humbly apologize.

The point stands, though. His "I can't take you serious" backfired since he wasn't able to provide any source, and his argument couldn't have been worse.

Everyone knows Yamcha is not even part of the story (hasn't been part of any story, for that matter). So to use "player can use Yamcha to defeat Beerus" as an argument against the arcade as well as why we can't use it as the source is... "mindblowing", to put it mildly.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Wed May 05, 2021 10:17 pm

It's 2 sources vs 1. If the videogame's chain of events were to be taken as serious as you want it to be then they would have been unchanged into the manga and the anime. But those events were changed weren't they? and since we are using videogames then lets talk about Fighterz where Blue Vegito or believe Blue Gogeta himself who can sense normal and god ki says he isn't sure which would win, SSBlue or SS4 and he wants to find out one day. We can delve into more video game sources if thats where you want to go with it, you obtuse color swapped SS fanboy a******.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:19 pm

Just to ask about this.

There's Super Saiyan 4, Full Power Super Saiyan 4 and Ultra Full Super Saiyan 4?

Of which the second was used against Baby after the group powered him up and the third against Syn Shenron in the same way but to a greater extent?

This confuses me because against Baby, they said they were just gonna recharge him to full power seemingly what he would have had when he started fighting so what's the difference between how he was at the start and then how he was when he was recharged?

He wasn't even any stronger than before because he was still on par with Baby just the same as he was before.

He suddenly got a red aura though which wasn't there before.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Trouser » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:41 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:19 pm Just to ask about this.

There's Super Saiyan 4, Full Power Super Saiyan 4 and Ultra Full Super Saiyan 4?

Of which the second was used against Baby after the group powered him up and the third against Syn Shenron in the same way but to a greater extent?

This confuses me because against Baby, they said they were just gonna recharge him to full power seemingly what he would have had when he started fighting so what's the difference between how he was at the start and then how he was when he was recharged?

He wasn't even any stronger than before because he was still on par with Baby just the same as he was before.

He suddenly got a red aura though which wasn't there before.
Super Full Power Saiyan 4 and Ultra Full Power Saiyan 4 are the same thing. Different names, just like Goku's Super Saiyan and Legendary Super Saiyan on Namek.
Another stage of SSJ4 is Super Full Power Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker from SDBH.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Grimlock » Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:53 pm

What Trouser said. And in addition to what he said, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan can also, in a way, be referred to as "Legendary Super Saiyan" considering it is the regular Super Saiyan. Vegeta himself does that in Movie 15.

And also, we do have "Super Saiyan 4 Full Power" too, though it doesn't seem to be related to what happens to Goku in Dragon Ball GT.

Image

In total, there are three enhancements to Super Saiyan 4 (four if you consider "Ultra Full Power Saiyan 4" to be a different thing).
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:23 pm

SS4 Full power was listed as what Goku used against Baby by the dbzwiki so that could be where the confusion came from.

Saiyan scholar on YouTube who tired to fairly scale GT also says Goku used SS4 Full power against Baby.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:53 pm

I know that that it was officially used against Baby and then an advancement of it was used against Syn Shenron.

What I'm saying is, against Baby they recharged Goku to full power. So how is it in any way special or different from how Goku was when he first started fighting?

I mean with Syn Shenron they specifically pushed him past his limit so I can see why that's different but all they did against Baby was recharge him to full strength so why is it a thing?

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:12 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:19 pm Just to ask about this.

There's Super Saiyan 4, Full Power Super Saiyan 4 and Ultra Full Super Saiyan 4?

Of which the second was used against Baby after the group powered him up and the third against Syn Shenron in the same way but to a greater extent?

This confuses me because against Baby, they said they were just gonna recharge him to full power seemingly what he would have had when he started fighting so what's the difference between how he was at the start and then how he was when he was recharged?

He wasn't even any stronger than before because he was still on par with Baby just the same as he was before.

He suddenly got a red aura though which wasn't there before.
Goku only went full power against Baby, that's all. Both regained their full power. It was never a different form and that red glow was just an visual effect clearly to indicate how strong he is. Let's remember that before Goku turned SSJ4 and Baby turned Oozaru, they got beaten a lot by each other, meaning they weren't even at full power after reaching those forms. And Goku clearly did better against Baby after that.

Against Syn he used "Super Full Power Saiyan 4" which was indeed a new, limit breaking form. He went above his limit and was much stronger.

You can see the difference between these two scenes. Against Baby, they gave him their power until he was at full power again and stopped after that. Against Syn, they didn't stop and kept giving him more and more power, kinda like Goku did against Yakon, except he managed to handle that excess of power and tap it into a new form.

Reason why people are so confused about this even today is, of course, mostly because of english dub that didn't explain anything in GT and never even indicate that SFPS4 is a thing.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Shintoki » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:30 am

sunsetshimmer wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:12 am
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:19 pm Just to ask about this.

There's Super Saiyan 4, Full Power Super Saiyan 4 and Ultra Full Super Saiyan 4?

Of which the second was used against Baby after the group powered him up and the third against Syn Shenron in the same way but to a greater extent?

This confuses me because against Baby, they said they were just gonna recharge him to full power seemingly what he would have had when he started fighting so what's the difference between how he was at the start and then how he was when he was recharged?

He wasn't even any stronger than before because he was still on par with Baby just the same as he was before.

He suddenly got a red aura though which wasn't there before.
Goku only went full power against Baby, that's all. Both regained their full power. It was never a different form and that red glow was just an visual effect clearly to indicate how strong he is. Let's remember that before Goku turned SSJ4 and Baby turned Oozaru, they got beaten a lot by each other, meaning they weren't even at full power after reaching those forms. And Goku clearly did better against Baby after that.

Against Syn he used "Super Full Power Saiyan 4" which was indeed a new, limit breaking form. He went above his limit and was much stronger.

You can see the difference between these two scenes. Against Baby, they gave him their power until he was at full power again and stopped after that. Against Syn, they didn't stop and kept giving him more and more power, kinda like Goku did against Yakon, except he managed to handle that excess of power and tap it into a new form.

Reason why people are so confused about this even today is, of course, mostly because of english dub that didn't explain anything in GT and never even indicate that SFPS4 is a thing.
incredible breakdown, not much people understand how GT/the movies work properly due to the dubism and a poor exposure from either works.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:14 pm

So essentially between the beat down that Kid Goku got, when he first went Super Saiyan 4 he was at, for example, 80% strength and the group recharged him to 100% hench the Super Full Power Saiyan 4 thing?

If he only did this with Baby then what was he doing against Super 17 then?

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:35 pm

The dub had nothing to do with not explaining Gt.

Goku's form againts Baby was SS4 at full power, but Goku's SS4 had increased in power from earlier.

Ss4 healed him of his damage.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:08 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:35 pm The dub had nothing to do with not explaining Gt.

Goku's form againts Baby was SS4 at full power, but Goku's SS4 had increased in power from earlier.

Ss4 healed him of his damage.
It did. Dub skipped some important things that make people confused today. Like how many times did i see people laughing at SFPS4 being added to Dokkan or Legends and asking "wtf is that name" or mispelling it as "SSJ4 Full Power" thinking it's how it's supposed to be called and that it's the form he used against Baby which is just bullshit.

People also keep asking how was Super 17 so strong when he is only 2 times stronger than regular #17, when sub version not only didn't say anything like that, but also made it clear that hell Fighter 17 was much stronger than original 17. In sub version Vegeta was shocked that HF17 (who he thought is regular 17) can fight on par with him in his base form saying that he "powered up beyond belief", while dub version made Vegeta calling HF17's power a joke compared to his own and Super 17 state he is only twice as strong as original 17 even though that would make him weaker than Perfect Cell was. Not to mention much stronger version of Perfect Cell in GT was humiliated by base Goku, who then needed SSJ4 against Super 17. Did they even think about keeping any logic while translating it?

Another example of dub mistakes is never calling Kamehameha x10 by its name (just calling it Kamehameha) and calling two handed Final Shine Attack as "Final Flash". First one caused people to think Goku didn't use Kamehameha x10 until Super 17 because they think this attack is red colored even though it was blue in Baby saga. The latter caused people to think Final Shine is one handed technique and that GT gave wrong color to Final Flash. That thing even made it to games.

English dub for GT was just trash.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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