How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

[Akyon]

Because it's a story and despite popular belief the only thing that matters is that the narrative is interesting. Exact power levels don't matter, the scaling has always been nonsense even from the get go, and thank god or the show wouldn't be even vaguely exciting.

If Goku punches Basil and he's OHKO'd, it's a massive dud of a conflict. If Buu defeats Basil in an exciting and creative way, that's interesting.

Thank god the fans don't write the show because it'd be incredibly boring and predictable if everything had to fit into these made up mathmatics for a battle's outcome.

In fact it's actually the opposite: when Dragon Ball fights are written like they were Naruto, One Piece or Bleach fights (power of love wins coupled with a completely ass-pulled technique because I'm the good guy) it's when the fans complain (Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT).

And you only have to see which are the fan's favourite fights in Dragon Ball (always the best written ones).

Ask any fan if he preferes the old DBZ movies (pure spectacle without any substance) or the new ones with Toriyama's involement (BoG, RoF and DBS:Super) and not even the nostalgia makes the fans prefere the old ones (because they're all incoherent messes).

And this applies to any fiction. Do you know what's the difference between Game Of Thrones seasons 1-4 and Game Of Thrones seasons 5-8? Yeah, the equivalent of "power scaling" in those series (coherent characters, coherent dialogues and coherent situations).
Someone with your same criteria would say: "who cares if what was said 20 episodes ago made any sense, what people want to see is spectacle, deaths and blood".
But no, once GoT turned into what you want Dragon Ball to be, it went to shit.

Actually GoT went to shit because there was no consequences for actions. You fuck up you die in the land of GoT. Characters in the last seasons fucked up repeatedly by making risky pointless maneuvers that didn't benefit them at all but nothing bad happened to them.

Everyone was upset because Arya, despite having arguably the best skillset of legendary assassin skills to do him in, narratively didn't have anything to do with the Night King. Everyone wanted Jon to be the one to overcome him because Jon was the one who's entire story to that point was about dealing with the White Walkers. That's the narrative.

The audience were upset because characters acted completely out of character; a flimsy ass excuse to make Danerys, who at this point was basically the saviour of innocent people, snap for little reason and take her anger out on innocents rather than making a beeline to where Cersei was.

GoT's power scaling should mean Arya is capable of killing the Night King with the legendary Dragonglass is perfectly acceptable since it's shown to kill White Walkers in a single hit...but narratively it's absolutely awful and one of the biggest anticlimatic moments in the entire show. Power scaling isn't the issue here, it's narrative.

So no, Dragonball can be narratively interesting without power scaling. Accurate Power scaling does the exact opposite issue and make everything a one sided snooze fest.

The Trio De Dangers have a grudge against Goku since he's the at least partially responsible for Zeno not calling the whole thing off by taking a L. That's the narrative. If Goku just whoops them in one hit a piece, tension, drama and characterization are all lost and without that your story is always going to be a bit shit.

However as this is 'In-universe' rather than the actual reason of the story needing it let's just say they pushed themselves further than they had, used the extra time to train really hard and had a rage boost due to their grudge that'll help them survive the initial few hits. Bermago also has that pretty useful ability so he's explained away.

Buu's difficult to deal with at the best of times due to his unique skillset of magic and regeneration. You can be stronger than him, but conventional attacks like Basil's kicks and ki blasts barely phase him. I dare say Goku and Vegeta still would struggle a little to finish Buu off completely due to his powers.

[Tai Lung]

Hit only powered up his Time-freezing technique and not his overall strength as explained in here:
https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Hit

What sense would it make for Hit to say "I can't increase my power screaming but I can do it anyway without screaming?".
The whole point of Hit's assentment was that he was improving his technique and not his power.

And if the author of the series is explaining you how a NEW TRANSFORMATION works, then that's not an excuse, it's simply how it works. That's why the manga is much better written, even if you enjoy the anime more becasue flashy colours and funny Goku.

you bring me a wikipedia article that anyone can correct? LOL
more screencap

it makes sense because it doesn't do it the same way they do ... it improves his ability but also improves his power that's why before I shout and illuminate his aura as a distraction
that you like manga the best I don't care .. it's shit writing with shit excuses that something is explained does not mean that it is coherent xd

The fact that he is not killing them is what proves that he can reduce the power of his blows to 1/3rd of his maximum.
I mean, yeah, I know that you're pretty invested in defeinding Toei's awful writters (do you work in there?) but nope, not with Raditz.

I answer you with the original manga raditz is surprised every time they raise and lower their power 2 or 3 times denying your theory
that goku and piccolo endure only shows what I say the characters have different resistances
aww you have no way to answer and now you make idiotic jokes ...lol

And yet you still haven't found a single one that doesn't involve tons of headcanon.
Goku vs 50% Freeza:
1. Goku was always in KKx10 at the very minimum (so 2x difference and not 20x).
2. Freeza was not killing Goku on purpose.

I mean, it's the same as with Raditz or Vegeta or Kid Bu. You don't have to kill someone if you don't want to do so. It doesn't mean they couldn't do it.
Regards!

I use the manga, anime and your wiki ... lol
headcanon is your thing

in that you are wrong because goku does not use it until after kaiosama mentioned it and he had already received several hits

manga










anime
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrdGFEhszPc

lol is the maximum fail I have read ... let's think a little.. what sense it makes for frieza say that he will use 50% of his power if later he will hold back ... by the way he can't increase his power and then Containing yourself is ridiculous ... especially since that is not an easy process for Frieza that almost killed him by the Genkidama
before they were equal, after increasing their power by 50% the frieza was 20 times stronger than goku
in fact even frieza says that he is surprised that goku endured so much ... then it doesn't make sense what you say

[MechaTrunks]

Actually GoT went to shit because there was no consequences for actions. You fuck up you die in the land of GoT. Characters in the last seasons fucked up repeatedly by making risky pointless maneuvers that didn't benefit them at all but nothing bad happened to them.

Everyone was upset because Arya, despite having arguably the best skillset of legendary assassin skills to do him in, narratively didn't have anything to do with the Night King. Everyone wanted Jon to be the one to overcome him because Jon was the one who's entire story to that point was about dealing with the White Walkers. That's the narrative.

And that's power levels for Dragon Ball, the drama and the consequences.
No, it's not about the number, it's about Goku's body being deamaged after the KKx3, being completely destroyed after the KKx4 and Toriyama being consequent with that during the whole fight leaving Goku in the bench while Gohan, Krillin or Yajirobee finished the job with the few resources they had versus Goku constantly recharging his Ki or ass-pulling new power ups like in Super or directly making black super strong in one scene and super weak in the following one without any apparent reason.

Arya killing the Night King was not criticised only because John was left without anything to do completely killing his character arc, but also because of how utterly retarded was for the Night King to expose himself in the way he did, or how forced it was for him to not kill Arya on the spot once he had her by her neck or how Arya had problems to dodge a few zombies 2 scenes ago and suddenly managed to sneak past the whole zombie army.

The audience were upset because characters acted completely out of character; a flimsy ass excuse to make Danerys, who at this point was basically the saviour of innocent people, snap for little reason and take her anger out on innocents rather than making a beeline to where Cersei was.

And Dragon Ball was all about making interesting, coherent fights with tons of turns of events that never felt cheap because they had all been properly introduced.
Power levels are important because regardless of how absurdly strong characters became from saga to saga (yeah, narratively speaking that was one of the weak points in DB) once a fight started Toriyama always respected how strong a character was and what it could do with that strength.

GoT's power scaling should mean Arya is capable of killing the Night King with the legendary Dragonglass is perfectly acceptable since it's shown to kill White Walkers in a single hit...but narratively it's absolutely awful and one of the biggest anticlimatic moments in the entire show. Power scaling isn't the issue here, it's narrative.

GoT's power scaling should mean Arya shouldn't have been able to sneak up to the Night King because just a few scenes before she had problems dodging a few zombies while the night king was surrounded by his army, or why the night king didn't broke Arya's neck as just as he grabbed her.
As I've said, that scene was cheap in every single sense, not only for the implications it had but also on how it was executed (Toei's style of writting).

So no, Dragonball can be narratively interesting without power scaling. Accurate Power scaling does the exact opposite issue and make everything a one sided snooze fest.

Wrong, because DragonBall gained the fame it gained thanks to it godly written fights.
Accurate power scaling within a fight is what made DBZ the most popular anime worldwide: you have tons of series with cool characters, cool power ups and better animation, but none with so many interesting, non-cheap fights.

The Trio De Dangers have a grudge against Goku since he's the at least partially responsible for Zeno not calling the whole thing off by taking a L. That's the narrative. If Goku just whoops them in one hit a piece, tension, drama and characterization are all lost and without that your story is always going to be a bit shit.

That's the problem of the writters for making the trio of dangers that weak and trying to create tension through them while making them fight Goku.
It's like the writters in GoT ending the series with Cersei as the "big final boss" instead of the Night King. I mean, in the manga you never had any Goku vs Trio of Dangers fight where Goku had to start acting like a retarded just to make the fight interesting.

Buu's difficult to deal with at the best of times due to his unique skillset of magic and regeneration. You can be stronger than him, but conventional attacks like Basil's kicks and ki blasts barely phase him. I dare say Goku and Vegeta still would struggle a little to finish Buu off completely due to his powers.

On that I agree, and the original manga already did this (the androids had unlimited energy, Bu had very high regeneration and in his original form also unlimited energy, etc.), but you can do this while still maintaining the internal coherence of the sereis.
I'll put you two examples of the DB:Super manga, one good and the other one bad:
The Good ones are Kaioshing and Trunks in the Black saga. They have a very prominent role while still respecting their stablished abilities.
Kaioshin saves the day a couple of times thanks to the shunkanido and his investigations and Trunks is also crucial not only managing to save Goku & Vegeta the first time and is given the healing ability (which isn't cheap because it was foreshadowed TWICE).
He is still too weak to fight, but he had a prominent role nontheless.

The bad example, that last chapter having Gohan+Piccolo+A17+A18 vs Moro's henchman, where just to give those secondary characters time to shine Toyotarou has broken the internal power-scale of the series (Piccolo shouldn't be able to perform at the same level as Mystic Gohan when just a couple of chapters ago it was established how much stronger Gohan was than him).

you bring me a wikipedia article that anyone can correct? LOL

And none of the screenshots you've provided demonstrate that Hit increased his power, so at the very least I provide sources that proof my point.

in that you are wrong because goku does not use it until after kaiosama mentioned it and he had already received several hits

Kaiosama says that Goku has been already using the KKx10 and the KKx10 aura is never drawn.
I mean, you upload half a chapter of the manga and you don't even upload the page where Kaito says that Goku had already been using the KKx10?

Why upload so many images where none proves what you're saying?

Regards!

[Tai Lung]

And none of the screenshots you've provided demonstrate that Hit increased his power, so at the very least I provide sources that proof my point.

it is because vegeta and piccolo are supposed to be feeling their current power

Anime >>> Wiki

Kaiosama says that Goku has been already using the KKx10 and the KKx10 aura is never drawn.
I mean, you upload half a chapter of the manga and you don't even upload the page where Kaito says that Goku had already been using the KKx10?

Why upload so many images where none proves what you're saying?

Regards!

No, Goku wasn't. The manga makes it clear that Goku didn't start using the Kaiou-ken in any form until AFTER Freeza had went to 50% full power. It was only then that Goku was shown with the Kaiou-ken aura, as beforehand he's only shown with a normal aura when he exhibits one. This notion that he was using it the entire time comes from the Funimation dub of Z, as the original line in the manga and anime do not indicate he's using it the entire time, simply that he is currently using it, when Tenshinhan suggests that he still has it up his sleeve.

official colored


later

only at that moment does he begin to do it and he had already received enough punishment

[MechaTrunks]

it is because vegeta and piccolo are supposed to be feeling their current power

Anime >>> Wiki

In the anime Hit says that he can't increase his power anymore, which is the opposite of what he says in the manga.

No, Goku wasn't. The manga makes it clear that Goku didn't start using the Kaiou-ken in any form until AFTER Freeza had went to 50% full power.
It was only then that Goku was shown with the Kaiou-ken aura, as beforehand he's only shown with a normal aura when he exhibits one.

In this very same page you are posting Goku is using the KKx10 without any kind of aura.
That's important because to argue that the KKx10 was activated after Freeza used his 50% you're using the coloured (not by Toriyama) version of the manga (which introduces that error, that wasn't a KK aura but a flight aura).
The KK doesn't work like that. If it gets de-activated, the fighter's power regresses in every sense and 50% Freeza, that was able to damage KKx10 Goku, would kill Goku as soon as he deactivated the KKx10.

This notion that he was using it the entire time comes from the Funimation dub of Z, as the original line in the manga and anime do not indicate he's using it the entire time, simply that he is currently using it, when Tenshinhan suggests that he still has it up his sleeve.

I've never seen the Funimation dub of Z.
My reasoning is based solely on the manga:
1. Freeza had no knowledge about the KK, and yet somehow he anticipated it?
2. When Goku went from KKx10 to KKx20, Freeza got completely taken by surprise (he wasn't expecting such an increase being posible for Goku). If Goku had already multiplied his strength by 10 in front of him, he surely wouldn't have reacted like he did.
3. We are told that Goku was using the KK and we never see it being activated at any point in the fight. This means that it had to be activated prior to the fight.
4. If Goku only uses the KKx10 when he has a KK aura in the coloured version (that is, just for a single attack), then when Kaito says Goku is using the KK he is in reality not using it? I mean, the whole point of the KKx10 was that

official colored


later

only at that moment does he begin to do it and he had already received enough punishment

Official colored means nothing, since that scene was NOT coloured by Toriyama. And as I've said, if you look at the coloured version of the page where Kaito says that Goku is using the KK, you'll see that Goku has no aura there either.
That was a flying aura that the ones doing the digital coloured version painted in red because in the anime that's when the KKx10 aura is painted, but doesn't make any sense for Goku to use the KKx10 just at that point and deactivate it just afterwards for no reason.

Also, if you look at the following page to the one you uploaded (the one where Freeza kicks Goku in the face), you'll see how Freeza also had a KK aura around him. Was Freeza also using the KK?

Regards!

[Tai Lung]

In the anime Hit says that he can't increase his power anymore, which is the opposite of what he says in the manga.i

He says that he can get stronger but without transformation or screaming like the Saiyans, it was quite clear that he does not do it by those means but he can get stronger ...

as piccolo and vegeta they know and because they are impressed that he has become stronger without being able to see his technique? obviously feel their current power

In this very same page you are posting Goku is using the KKx10 without any kind of aura.
That's important because to argue that the KKx10 was activated after Freeza used his 50% you're using the coloured (not by Toriyama) version of the manga (which introduces that error, that wasn't a KK aura but a flight aura).
The KK doesn't work like that. If it gets de-activated, the fighter's power regresses in every sense and 50% Freeza, that was able to damage KKx10 Goku, would kill Goku as soon as he deactivated the KKx10..i

that does not change what I say at all ...
king kaio speaks in the present time indicating that he is using it now ... it does not matter that you cannot see the aura because they are already indicating its use
goku didn't use the kkx10 until after taking several hits from frieza .. he thought frieza was lying about his power

I've never seen the Funimation dub of Z.
My reasoning is based solely on the manga:
1. Freeza had no knowledge about the KK, and yet somehow he anticipated it?
2. When Goku went from KKx10 to KKx20, Freeza got completely taken by surprise (he wasn't expecting such an increase being posible for Goku). If Goku had already multiplied his strength by 10 in front of him, he surely wouldn't have reacted like he did.
3. We are told that Goku was using the KK and we never see it being activated at any point in the fight. This means that it had to be activated prior to the fight.
4. If Goku only uses the KKx10 when he has a KK aura in the coloured version (that is, just for a single attack), then when Kaito says Goku is using the KK he is in reality not using it? I mean, the whole point of the KKx10 was that .i

1.-both gave an estimate since goku and frieza reveal that both are occupying their power but neither knows how much power they hide
2.-frieza is not surprised because he does not know how to feel the ki and having increased his power by 50% he does not feel the difference since the difference is still great
3.- that would be silly because you are saying that vegeta was stronger than goku base
4- It is to indicate ... that he is just using it because only at that moment that is shown ... goku uses the kaioken when they tell you or show that he uses it that is enough proof, otherwise it would be speculation ...
goku was reserving his technique for when he needed it before that the difference was not so great and he could fight with frieza

Official colored means nothing, since that scene was NOT coloured by Toriyama. And as I've said, if you look at the coloured version of the page where Kaito says that Goku is using the KK, you'll see that Goku has no aura there either.
That was a flying aura that the ones doing the digital coloured version painted in red because in the anime that's when the KKx10 aura is painted, but doesn't make any sense for Goku to use the KKx10 just at that point and deactivate it just afterwards for no reason.

Also, if you look at the following page to the one you uploaded (the one where Freeza kicks Goku in the face), you'll see how Freeza also had a KK aura around him. Was Freeza also using the KK?

Regards!

lol that something is not done by toriyama does not mean that it is not canon since we are talking about the original manga ... and in fact the author should have supervised this given that he left comments and interviews already known
lol it's just a coloring they can't color if the author didn't draw the aura on that panel




and what does frieza have to do with it? lol also his aura is almost the same color so that's barely noticeable


Still no matter the excuse ... my point remains that, proof that the series or manga some characters can withstand blows from others opponents 10 or 20 times stronger ...

[MechaTrunks]

He says that he can get stronger but without transformation or screaming like the Saiyans, it was quite clear that he does not do it by those means but he can get stronger ...

I doesn't make much sense while he would say this and I was pretty convinced that he specifically said he couldn't, but it's been a lot of time since the last time I saw it and I won't bother to check it again so I'll take your word on that.
If anime Hit really increased his strength those scenes aren't as badly written as I remember them.

that does not change what I say at all ...
king kaio speaks in the present time indicating that he is using it now ... it does not matter that you cannot see the aura because they are already indicating its use
goku didn't use the kkx10 until after taking several hits from frieza .. he thought frieza was lying about his power

It does matter because you're basing your whole stance of the KK being activated after Freeza using 50% of his strength on that colored panel.
If you want to proof that Goku had not been using the KKx10 prior to that panel because he had no KK aura drawn until then, that means that as soon as that aura disappears Goku also stops using the KK.

The thing is, THAT WAS NOT a KK aura in the original manga (Goku doesn't even have his eyes coloured in white as it always happens when Goku is using the KK and the panel is big enough to properly draw his eyes).

Think about that scene:
Freeza increases his power at 50% his maximum strength and starts beating Goku with that strength. If Goku still hadn't activated the KKx10 at that point, 50% Freeza punches would automatically kill Goku because those punches were thrown at enough strength to surpass the KKx10 unless Freeza somehow constantly adapted the strength of his punches.
That would break the whole internal logic of the series and make the Freeza fight an incoherent mess with omniscient characters (how could Freeza anticipate a 10x boost of strength from Goku on that scene where he is not even looking him?) that would act in incoherent ways (why increase your power up to 50% your strength if you then have to maintain the strength of your punches at around 5%, then 25% again but JUST for the instant Goku is using the KKx10 and then go back to using 5% of it again?).

1.-both gave an estimate since goku and frieza reveal that both are occupying their power but neither knows how much power they hide
2.-frieza is not surprised because he does not know how to feel the ki and having increased his power by 50% he does not feel the difference since the difference is still great
3.- that would be silly because you are saying that vegeta was stronger than goku base
4- It is to indicate ... that he is just using it because only at that moment that is shown ... goku uses the kaioken when they tell you or show that he uses it that is enough proof, otherwise it would be speculation ...
goku was reserving his technique for when he needed it before that the difference was not so great and he could fight with frieza

1. There's no way Freeza could estimate a KKx10. He could guess Goku wasn't giving it his all but a 10x boost is not a normal boost when fighting. Even the KKx2 took an experienced fighter like Ginyu completely by surprise.

2. The difference is always felt with such increases, the problem with Goku's KK "activation" is that it has absolutely no impact on the fight and it's completely invisible to the reader unless you take that badly colored version of the manga.

3. Of course I'm saying it, Vegeta was a high class saiyan warrior and Goku a low class. Goku always surpased Vegeta by being the better fighter, not by being stronger.

4. So Freeza's first hits at his 50% of strength were still thrown at 5% his strength? Why go 50% then?

lol that something is not done by toriyama does not mean that it is not canon since we are talking about the original manga ... and in fact the author should have supervised this given that he left comments and interviews already known

The original manga had those pages in black & white, and even if I don't doubt that the one colouring them tried to do his best, he surely wasn't Toriyama.
And the authors NEVER supervise the colored version of a manga in a panel to panel to panel basis, at best they provide notes about cloth colouring and I doubt this was the case for DB since most of the colors that they would ask Toriyama about had already been established by the anime or the colored pages by Toriyama.-

Still no matter the excuse ... my point remains that, proof that the series or manga some characters can withstand blows from others opponents 10 or 20 times stronger ...

Your whole argument revolves around the colored version of it, not the original source, so I can't accept it as a proof that in the original manga 10x punches were resisted by Goku (that would be the only fight in the series where this happens, vs the rest of the fights of the series where this doesn't happen and 2x punches are already fatal).

Regards!

[Tai Lung]

Your whole argument revolves around the colored version of it, not the original source, so I can't accept it as a proof that in the original manga 10x punches were resisted by Goku (that would be the only fight in the series where this happens, vs the rest of the fights of the series where this doesn't happen and 2x punches are already fatal).

Regards!

of all this is what mattered to me
if it is in the original manga it does not have to be incorrect and so the scene of hit vs goku kk should not be bad no matter how much you do not like it .. situations like that happened and the author agreed with this

and with that I prefer to end the debate