Why was Broli's strongest form in DBS movie form called Full Power Super Saiyajin?

[DBZ Expert]

I think the intention of movie 8 was to have LSSjin Broli as strong as CG Full Power SSjin Goku

[Yuli Ban]

I think the intention of movie 8 was to have LSSjin Broli as strong as CG Full Power SSjin Goku

There's no evidence that the writers of movie 8 even knew "Full Power Super Saiyan" (as in the state Goku and Gohan had) was even a thing. In fact, there's evidence to the opposite: if they were aware of the sheer level of power that the two had in that form, then Gohan would have been the one against whom Broly's ki reacted enough to trigger the legendary form.
Yet in the movie, Gohan fares the worst out of any of the fighters as he's written under the impression that he's the weakest, something that's directly contradicted in the story when it's revealed just a few chapters later that Gohan had in fact surpassed his father's strength (and that's before he even transformed into Super Saiyan 2).


Indeed, I've often said that the power scaling of movie 8 changes dramatically depending on whether or not the writers were aware of this fact ahead of time. If they were of the mind that Goku and Gohan were just Super Saiyans and not that much stronger than Vegeta and Trunks, then that'd put LSS Broly at around post-zenkai Perfect Cell in strength. If they were aware of the full-powered state ("grade 4" I've heard it be called), then that would easily put LSS Broly at or above Super Perfect Cell.

[theherodjl]

Indeed, I've often said that the power scaling of movie 8 changes dramatically depending on whether or not the writers were aware of this fact ahead of time. If they were of the mind that Goku and Gohan were just Super Saiyans and not that much stronger than Vegeta and Trunks, then that'd put LSS Broly at around post-zenkai Perfect Cell in strength. If they were aware of the full-powered state ("grade 4" I've heard it be called), then that would easily put LSS Broly at or above Super Perfect Cell.

As stated before, Takao Koyama already had in mind that Broly was the single, most powerful fighter during the original run of DBZ, with Koyama refusing to concede that Broly was actually weaker than anyone until Beerus was introduced in the BOG film.
Because of Koyama's bias love for his own creation, Broly was any degree of power greater than FPSSJ that existed until 2012.

[Yuli Ban]

Indeed, I've often said that the power scaling of movie 8 changes dramatically depending on whether or not the writers were aware of this fact ahead of time. If they were of the mind that Goku and Gohan were just Super Saiyans and not that much stronger than Vegeta and Trunks, then that'd put LSS Broly at around post-zenkai Perfect Cell in strength. If they were aware of the full-powered state ("grade 4" I've heard it be called), then that would easily put LSS Broly at or above Super Perfect Cell.

As stated before, Takao Koyama already had in mind that Broly was the single, most powerful fighter during the original run of DBZ, with Koyama refusing to concede that Broly was actually weaker than anyone until Beerus was introduced in the BOG film.
Because of Koyama's bias love for his own creation, Broly was any degree of power greater than FPSSJ that existed until 2012.

While true, I'm just gonna operate along death of the author rules: Broly was written to be stronger than anyone at the time; Koyama's desire for his waifu Burori to be the absolute strongest was something gleaned in retrospect and not all indicative of his strength in any of the movies. He can say whatever he want after the fact; that doesn't change the facts of what was true at the time. After all, he may have thought of Broly as the strongest in 1993, but the series wasn't gonna be over for another three years, so he had absolutely no clue how strong anyone was actually going to get.

Otherwise, we have to believe that Super Saiyan Goku, boosted by others' ki in movie 8, was stronger than Super Vegetto circa EoZ, and quite frankly fuck that.

[theherodjl]

Otherwise, we have to believe that Super Saiyan Goku, boosted by others' ki in movie 8, was stronger than Super Vegetto circa EoZ, and quite frankly fuck that.

As much as I would hate to give Koyama credit for what he called 'writing' in the Broly films, he did go out on a high note in M8 and ended a ridiculously-overpowered character with a ridiculously-simple solution: Goku absorbed the power of multiple other fighters and then became massively stronger to the point of instilling fear into Broly and then defeated Broly with all his power put into one punch. As little thought that went into such a method of defeat, it did pave the way for characters in the future to become massively stronger(Goku's improved variant of SSJ4, SSJG, Trunks' sword) in a moment of need. Because there are examples of channeling power together resulting in a temporary bridging of the gap between fighters, I can buy that Goku in M8 could improve over Z Super Vegetto for a moment.
As for how Broly lost in M10...I'm really not even sure how that can be justified. We just have to assume that Goku somehow held onto the power he initially defeated Broly with and that it conveniently decided to show back up the next time Broly appeared.
I dunno, I can't believably explain Koyama's writing.

[miguelnuva1]

Unless the writers state the Z fighters were also stronger in the Broly films, Broly has limits.

M10 who is stronger than M8 couldn't put down Ssj2 Gohan as easily as Far Buu put down Ssj2 Majin Vegeta.

[theherodjl]

Unless the writers state the Z fighters were also stronger in the Broly films, Broly has limits.

M10 who is stronger than M8 couldn't put down Ssj2 Gohan as easily as Far Buu put down Ssj2 Majin Vegeta.

Broly has limits, make no mistake about that. Its just that in the Z movies, Broly was the strongest character until Beerus came along.

Broly was toying with everyone in M10. At no point did Gohan put up any sort of resistance indicating that the gap between he & Broly was minor. Broly appeared to just humor Gohan whenever the half-Saiyan mounted any sort of offense and then swiftly turned the tables on Gohan.

[miguelnuva1]

Unless the writers state the Z fighters were also stronger in the Broly films, Broly has limits.

M10 who is stronger than M8 couldn't put down Ssj2 Gohan as easily as Far Buu put down Ssj2 Majin Vegeta.

Broly has limits, make no mistake about that. Its just that in the Z movies, Broly was the strongest character until Beerus came along.

Broly was toying with everyone in M10. At no point did Gohan put up any sort of resistance indicating that the gap between he & Broly was minor. Broly appeared to just humor Gohan whenever the half-Saiyan mounted any sort of offense and then swiftly turned the tables on Gohan.

Gohan stopped Broly's momentum temporally when he flew at him and later 3 ssjs overpowered him.

Gogeta is the strongest movie character before Beerus. Also it was stated in m11 Goku and Pikkon could handle Broly and Goku says Fat Janemba is the greatest ki he's ever sinced.

Both Fat Buu and Broly were encountered in the past in m12.

[theherodjl]

Gohan stopped Broly's momentum temporally when he flew at him and later 3 ssjs overpowered him.

Gogeta is the strongest movie character before Beerus. Also it was stated in m11 Goku and Pikkon could handle Broly and Goku says Fat Janemba is the greatest ki he's ever sinced.

Both Fat Buu and Broly were encountered in the past in m12.

Again, Broly was toying around the entire time. Any instance of Gohan seeming to put up a fight was quickly overturned by Broly.
Broly's death at the hands of three Saiyans likely ties back into whatever power Goku originally possessed to defeat him.

Takao Koyama, who wrote the various films of DBZ, had retroactively made Broly the strongest movie character until Beerus' introduction. That's fact whether people agree with it or not.

[miguelnuva1]

Gohan stopped Broly's momentum temporally when he flew at him and later 3 ssjs overpowered him.

Gogeta is the strongest movie character before Beerus. Also it was stated in m11 Goku and Pikkon could handle Broly and Goku says Fat Janemba is the greatest ki he's ever sinced.

Both Fat Buu and Broly were encountered in the past in m12.

Again, Broly was toying around the entire time. Any instance of Gohan seeming to put up a fight was quickly overturned by Broly.
Broly's death at the hands of three Saiyans likely ties back into whatever power Goku originally possessed to defeat him.

Takao Koyama who wrote the various films of DBZ, had retroactively made Broly the strongest movie character until Beerus' introduction. That's fact whether people agree with it or not.

Gohan broke Broly's hold when Broly was serious then kicked him and stunned him. If Broly is the strongest till Beerus then he didn't use that power.

He isn't though since Goku said Janemba was stronger and Goku beat Broly in hell without Ssj3, so Koyama is contradicting himself.

Koyama himself wrote feats and statements showing Broly isnt that strong.

[Koitsukai]

Gohan stopped Broly's momentum temporally when he flew at him and later 3 ssjs overpowered him.

Gogeta is the strongest movie character before Beerus. Also it was stated in m11 Goku and Pikkon could handle Broly and Goku says Fat Janemba is the greatest ki he's ever sinced.

Both Fat Buu and Broly were encountered in the past in m12.

Again, Broly was toying around the entire time. Any instance of Gohan seeming to put up a fight was quickly overturned by Broly.
Broly's death at the hands of three Saiyans likely ties back into whatever power Goku originally possessed to defeat him.

Takao Koyama who wrote the various films of DBZ, had retroactively made Broly the strongest movie character until Beerus' introduction. That's fact whether people agree with it or not.

Gohan broke Broly's hold when Broly was serious then kicked him and stunned him. If Broly is the strongest till Beerus then he didn't use that power.

He isn't though since Goku said Janemba was stronger and Goku beat Broly in hell without Ssj3, so Koyama is contradicting himself.

Koyama himself wrote feats and statements showing Broly isnt that strong.

I agree with this, a retroactive statement from the creator that contradicts the actual footage is meaningless. It sounds more like a salty writer not happy about his greatest creation becoming obsolete two arc later. If Toyo tomorrow says that MZ also was up there with Beerus and Vegito Blue, it won't make that true because the manga shows the opposite.
There is no way a depleted android saga SS Goku with the energy of his weaker and more battered friends will ever create a power that eclipses a 3-arcs-later Super Vegito. Or that the same was the case for the triple kamehameha in Movie 10.

It makes more sense to not care about Koyama's words than to try and make them work. It is just not supported by the final product.

[LoganForkHands73]

Koyama's probably too preoccupied with aesthetics and the fame of the character than anything meaningful about his power. I think it's more relative to when Broly first appeared, he indisputably was the strongest character in the setting, but while later villains dwarfed him in power, none were as famous, so for Koyama it's like 'who cares'?

What irks me is how superficial Koyama's salt is. Koyama hated the idea of a weak-looking character like Beerus potentially taking Broly's spot as the most famous strong-guy. While I can respect his passion and confidence in his role in contributing to the franchise's success, it shows how out-of-touch with the real heart of the series he is. Toriyama's style is all about subverting expectations. Bulky, top-heavy transformations almost always cause characters to lose embarrassingly due to a lack of speed and stamina. 100% Frieza, Power-Weighted Cell, Super Saiyan Grade 3 Trunks, etc etc. But then the slimmer, unsuspecting characters and transformations always prove to be more dangerous and intimidating. Beerus, Whis and Super Saiyan God conform to that trend but Broly does not. He's exactly as mighty as he looks. He has no weakness or drawback. Meanwhile, Beerus doesn't have to be a towering goliath to instil fear and tension into any scene he's in. I get the feeling that Koyama is envious of Toriyama's writing ability more than anything.

[Yuli Ban]

Not really envious. Just likely not a fan of it. There are plenty people who just don't like Toriyama's style, and it can be hit or miss as any style can.

After all, would Toguro have been improved if he were Hiei's size? No, because him being a tower of power was part of his whole character.

In which case, Toriyama pulling off the same trick would have made him a weaker character overall. Not that I think Toriyama would have done such— we'll never know because Toriyama doesn't really do stories like this.

I've been emulating the whole "strongest by action, not by appearance" myself for a full decade now, and whenever I actually have a story that utilizes it that I show off to others (which isn't often), invariably I hear "[X] should've been the strongest because they sound badass."
Most mainstream character design philosophy comes down to one thing: efficiency. We're told your character design ought to reflect your character themselves— thus, a big character should represent power. This, coupled with a love for badass hypermasculine designs in the West, is a big reason why Broly took off the way he did.

Toriyama' s philosophy twists it up a bit by also making the character design reflect the reader's expectations, basically adding a second layer of depth there. In this case, he KNOWS the reader expects Nappa to be stronger than Vegeta. He KNOWS Freeza's third form is the one people expect to be the most powerful while his fourth looks like a failure to transform at all. So he mixes it up.

Realistically, that's not even factual and has also been horribly misunderstood by future creators:


In real life, you get your ass beaten raw because size DOES matter. It's why you NEVER pit a featherweight against a heavyweight, why women are at such a physical disadvantage against men, and why you should always bet on a tiger over a wolf— if someone has 200 pounds of muscle vs. someone with 80 pounds of muscle, there's no speed difference humanly possible that's saving the latter from getting wiped across the concrete. So naturally we react to bigger, stronger, more muscular characters appropriately.

But in a wuxia story, size doesn't matter; it's all about ability. That's something else that I think has been forgotten— so many other shonen action shows use wuxia tropes but never the actual philosophies, setting, or characters themselves, often mixing these conventions with new ones, which isn't a bad thing but has lent itself to a watering down of understanding why Dragon Ball functions the way it does. It doesn't matter how much physical strength a giant hulking berserker god-wannabe has if a svelte anthro cat cultivated or gained enough ki to bust the universe with a flick of his wrist.

[Miracles]

Because that was Broly's full power. DB is a simple story.
Toriyama is not trying to trick you or leave the audience open to interpretation.

[DBZ Expert]

Broli was called like that because his original character from movie 8 was as strong as Full Power SSjin Goku from the Cell Games.

[Dragon Wukong]

Broly's form is called Super Saiyan Full Power because it's his Super Saiyan form at full power.

I mean, I see nothing wrong with calling it Legendary Super Saiyan though, given the fact it parallels to Kale, who's the "Legendary Saiyan" of Universe 6.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

From a Doylist perspective, it's merely because, well, the name is quite literally just that. Broly's full power Super Saiyan form.

From a Watsonian perspective, you could argue that that's as strong as Super Saiyan's gonna got through pure potential naturally and without outside sources like Super Saiyan God to augment it. It's kind of an alternate take on the concept of SS4, since the powers of Great Ape and Super Saiyan are very much natural and intrinsic to Saiyans.

So SSFP is the strongest the Super Saiyan form can be without godly powers, potential unlocking rituals, etc., at least from my hypothetical in-universe perspective.

[Super Murjin]

Maybe ti was to separate DBS Broly from DBZ Broly. So the question is, do both Kale and Broly have the same form? Kale's was mentioned being a mutated form i think and it went by the name Demon or Berserker. Would Broly's be just a more powerful potent version of that?

[miguelnuva1]

Maybe ti was to separate DBS Broly from DBZ Broly. So the question is, do both Kale and Broly have the same form? Kale's was mentioned being a mutated form i think and it went by the name Demon or Berserker. Would Broly's be just a more powerful potent version of that?

Brody's form doesn't have to be more powerful. Broly has a much stronger base than Kale and has a 10x boost on top due to the Wrathful power up.

[LoganForkHands73]

Not really envious. Just likely not a fan of it. There are plenty people who just don't like Toriyama's style, and it can be hit or miss as any style can.

After all, would Toguro have been improved if he were Hiei's size? No, because him being a tower of power was part of his whole character.

In which case, Toriyama pulling off the same trick would have made him a weaker character overall. Not that I think Toriyama would have done such— we'll never know because Toriyama doesn't really do stories like this.

I've been emulating the whole "strongest by action, not by appearance" myself for a full decade now, and whenever I actually have a story that utilizes it that I show off to others (which isn't often), invariably I hear "[X] should've been the strongest because they sound badass."
Most mainstream character design philosophy comes down to one thing: efficiency. We're told your character design ought to reflect your character themselves— thus, a big character should represent power. This, coupled with a love for badass hypermasculine designs in the West, is a big reason why Broly took off the way he did.

Toriyama' s philosophy twists it up a bit by also making the character design reflect the reader's expectations, basically adding a second layer of depth there. In this case, he KNOWS the reader expects Nappa to be stronger than Vegeta. He KNOWS Freeza's third form is the one people expect to be the most powerful while his fourth looks like a failure to transform at all. So he mixes it up.

Realistically, that's not even factual and has also been horribly misunderstood by future creators:


In real life, you get your ass beaten raw because size DOES matter. It's why you NEVER pit a featherweight against a heavyweight, why women are at such a physical disadvantage against men, and why you should always bet on a tiger over a wolf— if someone has 200 pounds of muscle vs. someone with 80 pounds of muscle, there's no speed difference humanly possible that's saving the latter from getting wiped across the concrete. So naturally we react to bigger, stronger, more muscular characters appropriately.

But in a wuxia story, size doesn't matter; it's all about ability. That's something else that I think has been forgotten— so many other shonen action shows use wuxia tropes but never the actual philosophies, setting, or characters themselves, often mixing these conventions with new ones, which isn't a bad thing but has lent itself to a watering down of understanding why Dragon Ball functions the way it does. It doesn't matter how much physical strength a giant hulking berserker god-wannabe has if a svelte anthro cat cultivated or gained enough ki to bust the universe with a flick of his wrist.

Points well made. Being a big hulk of muscle is as much part of Broly's character as it is Y. Toguro's, no arguments there. There is definitely an appeal to Z Broly's design. I was just saying that it doesn't conform with Toriyama's sensibilities so it was only natural for him to design Beerus, Whis and SSG Goku the way he did. It also soundly tied in with the overall theme of the film, that even if Goku thinks he's the biggest, toughest fish in the pond, there's still an ocean out there of relatively weak-looking guys that are whales on the power scale in comparison to him, still little more than a krill in the grand scheme.

Here-here on the speed-trumps-power argument being applied to real life and gratuitously to other anime (and stories in general) where it's not needed - that comic made me laugh . I think for Toriyama, it's as much about stamina maintenance as it is for speed/skill/ki manipulation. It's mainly in regards to inefficient transformations where the whole "bigger they are, harder they fall" theme applies, since realistically if a person were to somehow jack themselves up to three or four times their natural musculature in seconds, their bodies would be fucked and unable to cope with their new mass. When naturally big guys are introduced, they're normally taken comically easily by the heroes, normally because the heroes trump them in raw strength and ki manipulation to a point where having a speed advantage is unnecessary. The gag of "towering beefcake gets taken out in one ribshot by *insert unassuming fighter here*" is the Toriyama classic.

Furthermore, I think the designs of the gods in Dragon Ball conform to a modern idealisation of what gods ought to look like - unassuming. People aren't interested in gods who actually look godlike anymore. The old image of a giant, long-bearded white guy shredded with an eight-pack smiting down sinners with massive lightning bolts doesn't really fly these days. Beerus's design of course hearkens back to the Ancient Egyptian pantheons with his slender frame, which I always thought was really striking about his design. It makes some sense - if nigh-omnipotent gods really existed, they wouldn't need to rely on physical strength at all.