Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

[Tectorman]

My perspective is that we should go off of Buuhan's expectations.

Boohan's estimations for Goku & Vegeta's fusion was wildly inaccurate though. As seen in the anime, even Base Vegetto was stronger than Boohan. In M12, SSJ Gogeta pretty easily overpowered & destroyed Janemba, a Boohan-tier foe. In DBS: Broly, Base Gogeta managed to evade SSJ Broly's attacks relatively easier than SSJB Goku & Vegeta did. And if we count SDBH, Gogeta is possibly stronger than Vegetto(if just for one time only) due to Vegetto needing Kaio-ken on top of SSJB to stop Cunber while Gogeta only required SSJB to take on Hearts with the Universal Seed.
Boohan is particularly unreliable when it comes to predicting what degree of power that a merging of Goku & Vegeta produces.

Yes, I know that. That's why everything I said was in regards to Buuhan's expectations of what a hypothetical Gogeta (the result of a Fusion dance or similar (as far as Buuhan knew at the time) power-up) would have been able to do, rather than what Vegetto showed himself able to do (the result of a different power-up that Buuhan did not know about ahead of time).

[dragonball0900]

You're forgetting that Hirudegarn is mentioned as having a weakness, one which Goku exploits. The dub states that Hirudegarn loses power when losing control of his emotions but the original implies something else, possibly relating to the fact that Trunks had just sliced off Hirudegarn's tail(which noticeably affects it)which then led to Goku withstanding Hirude's blows and subsequently, it's destruction with the dragon fist.
Its a bit silly but I don't think its out of the realm of possibility that Hirudegarn losing his absorption-thingy reduced his strength considerably.

That still doesn't change the fact that Toei stated Hirudegarn was weaker than Janemba because SSJ3 Goku beat him. Yes, Hirudegarn got weaker due to his weakness. But "considerably" I doubt it very much. SSJ3 Gotenks was treated like trash by that Hirudegarn. And Gohan was trashed even more by Base Hirudegarn. Knowing Toei, I'm sure they intended for Goku to be the strongest in the movie, since they are known for loving Goku far more than the other characters.

They weren't nerfed, Goku is haxed.

Goku says he's stronger in M12 than in the Buu saga and he could be even stronger than that in M13.

Goku might have only needed a year after Buu to surpass Gotenks and Gohan especially if the kids and Gohan slacked.

Goku said he was stronger, but surely he isn't THAT much stronger. And given what Toei said, M13 Goku should still be the same as M12 Goku, if not just slightly stronger (very slightly I must add).

You also need to remember that out of all three, Gohan was nerfed the most since even SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta did far better than him against Base Hirudegarn. Then SSJ3 Gotenks was beating that very same Base Hirudegarn, yet a transformed Hirudegarn beat Gotenks later on.

Gohan and Gotenks were clearly nerfed, specially Gohan. Otherwise he wouldn't have performed as badly as he did against the weakest version of Hirudegarn. They were nerfed so that Goku gets to look good, plus according to Toei in their old website, M13 Goku is the same as M12 Goku, since they used him as a benchmark to compare Janemba with Hirudegarn.

[Dragon Wukong]

Super Buu was on a similar level as SSJ3 Gotenks. Of course the kids were far weaker than Goku and Vegeta but wouldn't adding in Super Buu's power into that be enough to bridge the gap? Buutenks is just Super Buu + SSJ3 Gotenks. Even if the kids were far weaker than either Goku or Vegeta, meaning that SSJ3 Gotenks would be far weaker than SSJ3 Gogeta, the added power of Super Buu should make them equal or close to it right?

I'm talking about Buu Saga Gogeta of course

No reason at all. Gotenks actually says in the manga that Gohan was stronger than him. Though it's implied they're still somewhere around the same level overall. It just happens that the addition of Super Buu + Gotenks was enough to surpass Gohan.

So, if Super Vegito could fight Buuhan, then there's no reason to think Buutenks would fare any better against Super Gogeta.

[theherodjl]

That still doesn't change the fact that Toei stated Hirudegarn was weaker than Janemba because SSJ3 Goku beat him. Yes, Hirudegarn got weaker due to his weakness. But "considerably" I doubt it very much. SSJ3 Gotenks was treated like trash by that Hirudegarn. And Gohan was trashed even more by Base Hirudegarn. Knowing Toei, I'm sure they intended for Goku to be the strongest in the movie, since they are known for loving Goku far more than the other characters.

Janemba was confirmed to be stronger than Hirudegarn, yes. However, Janemba also never used his full strength in M12 until Gogeta appeared before him. The Janemba that SSJ3 Goku fought was mostly suppressed. Meanwhile, the Hirudegarn that Goku defeated had lost a part of his body which in DB fashion, led to him weakening greatly. Its why Goku suddenly felt confident he could take Hirudegarn even though Trunks was about to dice off another part of the creature's body, doing so would've just weakened Hirude further and then Goku really wouldn't have needed to show off the dragon fist's power. That was pretty much the reason why Goku wanted to end it that way, he wanted his opponent to still have some strength to him so that Goku's own technique could show off his full power and defeat the villain. Its kinda vanity on Goku's part but its also him being a fair sport about it.

[p-hyvo]

Well, maybe if you highball... But I think that it is too much. Base vegeth >buutenks, and considering every media vegeth is more than 20 but less than 50 times gogeta (both considered in base or anyway in the same form) , so base vegeth can't be >gogeta ssj3 imo

[dragonball0900]

That still doesn't change the fact that Toei stated Hirudegarn was weaker than Janemba because SSJ3 Goku beat him. Yes, Hirudegarn got weaker due to his weakness. But "considerably" I doubt it very much. SSJ3 Gotenks was treated like trash by that Hirudegarn. And Gohan was trashed even more by Base Hirudegarn. Knowing Toei, I'm sure they intended for Goku to be the strongest in the movie, since they are known for loving Goku far more than the other characters.

Janemba was confirmed to be stronger than Hirudegarn, yes. However, Janemba also never used his full strength in M12 until Gogeta appeared before him. The Janemba that SSJ3 Goku fought was mostly suppressed. Meanwhile, the Hirudegarn that Goku defeated had lost a part of his body which in DB fashion, led to him weakening greatly. Its why Goku suddenly felt confident he could take Hirudegarn even though Trunks was about to dice off another part of the creature's body, doing so would've just weakened Hirude further and then Goku really wouldn't have needed to show off the dragon fist's power. That was pretty much the reason why Goku wanted to end it that way, he wanted his opponent to still have some strength to him so that Goku's own technique could show off his full power and defeat the villain. Its kinda vanity on Goku's part but its also him being a fair sport about it.

Well, Toei did say Janemba was stronger specifically because he beat SSJ3 Goku, which means the power Janemba used against SSJ3 Goku was already stronger than Hirudegarn's max. I checked the fight, and SSJ3 Goku was still able to dodge Hirudegarn at his max easily before he was cut by Trunks, something that SSJ3 Gotenks failed to do, and Gotenks was literally one shooted by Hirudegarn in his transformed state. And it also doesn't change the fact that Ultimate Gohan's performance was the most disappointing one in the movie. He was as bad, if not worse, as SSJs/SSJ2s, even Vegeta held his own better than him. We need to remember that Toei enjoys to make Goku better than the rest. That's why they made SSJ3 Goku had the better showing of all, and the reason why Gohan and Gotenks were nerfed to make Goku look cool.

That's why I don't believe Hirudegarn was actually drastically stronger than Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks, given that we are basing their feats on scenes that show they were clearly downgraded in power (Gohan being the most downgraded of all).

[p-hyvo]

Well, toeiverse scaling is different from manga scaling. In the movies, ssj3 Goku is stronger than both mystic gohan and ssj3 gotenks, but in the manga it isn't the case at all. Just separate continuities, different rules and different scaling. Don't try to equalize, it's no sense and you will fail. In WoD
Ryuken> super hirudegarn>ssj3 Goku >ssj2 Goku>ssj3 gotenks≈ mystic gohan>hirudegarn

Both gotenks and gohan gets oneshotted by super hirudegarn, from Wich ssj2 withstands multiple hits. also, basing on this I have means to think that Vegeta was only ssj in WoD, or else it wouldn't make sense for Vegeta to be oneshotted by hirudegarn as well as gohan and gotenks while Goku resists plenty of hits.

Yeah, toei verse really praises Goku and disregards everyone else, Goku is always on the top and stronger than anyone else.
As if the Japanese name of WoD doesn't make a good work in implying it lmao , "if Goku can't who will"

[miguelnuva1]

SS2 Goku is weaker than SS33 Gotenks he was telling Gotenks to finish the fight like he was worried.

SS3 seems like a haymaker. It's a massive increase for Goku but it's also can leave him vurnuable if it doesn't use it at the right time.

Also according to Toei

SS3 Goku>Kid Buu>Buuhan.

[dragonball0900]

Well, toeiverse scaling is different from manga scaling. In the movies, ssj3 Goku is stronger than both mystic gohan and ssj3 gotenks, but in the manga it isn't the case at all. Just separate continuities, different rules and different scaling. Don't try to equalize, it's no sense and you will fail. In WoD
Ryuken> super hirudegarn>ssj3 Goku >ssj2 Goku>ssj3 gotenks≈ mystic gohan>hirudegarn

Both gotenks and gohan gets oneshotted by super hirudegarn, from Wich ssj2 withstands multiple hits. also, basing on this I have means to think that Vegeta was only ssj in WoD, or else it wouldn't make sense for Vegeta to be oneshotted by hirudegarn as well as gohan and gotenks while Goku resists plenty of hits.

Yeah, toei verse really praises Goku and disregards everyone else, Goku is always on the top and stronger than anyone else.
As if the Japanese name of WoD doesn't make a good work in implying it lmao , "if Goku can't who will"

SSJ3 Gotenks was clearly way stronger than Ultimate Gohan though. Base Hirudegarn stomped Gohan pretty bad. SSJ3 Gotenks was beating that Hirudegarn until he transformed. Also Gotenks was considered the strongest of the group before Goku went SSJ3. I'm pretty sure Vegeta was SSJ2, and SSJ2 Goku resisting Hirudegarn is just Toei usually making Goku look good as in many Toei movies.

[p-hyvo]

Well, toeiverse scaling is different from manga scaling. In the movies, ssj3 Goku is stronger than both mystic gohan and ssj3 gotenks, but in the manga it isn't the case at all. Just separate continuities, different rules and different scaling. Don't try to equalize, it's no sense and you will fail. In WoD
Ryuken> super hirudegarn>ssj3 Goku >ssj2 Goku>ssj3 gotenks≈ mystic gohan>hirudegarn

Both gotenks and gohan gets oneshotted by super hirudegarn, from Wich ssj2 withstands multiple hits. also, basing on this I have means to think that Vegeta was only ssj in WoD, or else it wouldn't make sense for Vegeta to be oneshotted by hirudegarn as well as gohan and gotenks while Goku resists plenty of hits.

Yeah, toei verse really praises Goku and disregards everyone else, Goku is always on the top and stronger than anyone else.
As if the Japanese name of WoD doesn't make a good work in implying it lmao , "if Goku can't who will"

SSJ3 Gotenks was clearly way stronger than Ultimate Gohan though. Base Hirudegarn stomped Gohan pretty bad. SSJ3 Gotenks was beating that Hirudegarn until he transformed. Also Gotenks was considered the strongest of the group before Goku went SSJ3. I'm pretty sure Vegeta was SSJ2, and SSJ2 Goku resisting Hirudegarn is just Toei usually making Goku look good as in many Toei movies.

Well, re-readind the anime comic no, both gohan and gotenks got beaten by super hirudegarn. Gohan takes a mouth blast to the face without the possibility to defend himself from base hirudegarn and seems undamaged after.

[p-hyvo]

SS2 Goku is weaker than SS33 Gotenks he was telling Gotenks to finish the fight like he was worried.

SS3 seems like a haymaker. It's a massive increase for Goku but it's also can leave him vurnuable if it doesn't use it at the right time.

Also according to Toei

SS3 Goku>Kid Buu>Buuhan.

My bad, it was late. So yes, gotenks>ssj2 goku

[dragonball0900]

Well, toeiverse scaling is different from manga scaling. In the movies, ssj3 Goku is stronger than both mystic gohan and ssj3 gotenks, but in the manga it isn't the case at all. Just separate continuities, different rules and different scaling. Don't try to equalize, it's no sense and you will fail. In WoD
Ryuken> super hirudegarn>ssj3 Goku >ssj2 Goku>ssj3 gotenks≈ mystic gohan>hirudegarn

Both gotenks and gohan gets oneshotted by super hirudegarn, from Wich ssj2 withstands multiple hits. also, basing on this I have means to think that Vegeta was only ssj in WoD, or else it wouldn't make sense for Vegeta to be oneshotted by hirudegarn as well as gohan and gotenks while Goku resists plenty of hits.

Yeah, toei verse really praises Goku and disregards everyone else, Goku is always on the top and stronger than anyone else.
As if the Japanese name of WoD doesn't make a good work in implying it lmao , "if Goku can't who will"

SSJ3 Gotenks was clearly way stronger than Ultimate Gohan though. Base Hirudegarn stomped Gohan pretty bad. SSJ3 Gotenks was beating that Hirudegarn until he transformed. Also Gotenks was considered the strongest of the group before Goku went SSJ3. I'm pretty sure Vegeta was SSJ2, and SSJ2 Goku resisting Hirudegarn is just Toei usually making Goku look good as in many Toei movies.

Well, re-readind the anime comic no, both gohan and gotenks got beaten by super hirudegarn. Gohan takes a mouth blast to the face without the possibility to defend himself from base hirudegarn and seems undamaged after.

Gotenks was the only one capable on beating Base Hirudegarn. Ultimate Gohan (who was literally getting stomped before by Base Hirudegarn and could not follow his movements) and the SSJ2s were all on the sidelines as they watched SSJ3 Gotenks beating Base Hirudegarn. A transformed Hirudegarn was required to beat SSJ3 Gotenks. Ultimate Gohan barely did anything against Base Hirudegarn, and did far worse than SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta.

Gohan was nerfed in the movie, as seen in his fights. This is clearly not the same Gohan from the Buu Saga that was far ahead of the SSJ2s.

[Koitsukai]

M13 and M12 Goku can't be the same Goku for obvious reasons: M12 Goku was dead like Vegeta, while M13 was revived, putting M12 happening somewhere between Goku going back to the Other World, Vegeta dying vs Fat Buu and Goku and Vegeta being brought back, with their respective power levels. That is the timeslot where Gotenks and Gohan got their spotlight. Earth is overrun by Hitler and fodder, so Buu was already dealt with by Gotenks or Gohan, or both.

M13 has everybody alive and with all their forms unlocked, so unlike M12 it is after the entire Buu saga. And like it was already mentioned, probably long enough after Buu to get Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan(maybe the only one that stopped training, explaining why he is outshined by Vegeta and Gotenks)

[miguelnuva1]

M13 and M12 Goku can't be the same Goku for obvious reasons: M12 Goku was dead like Vegeta, while M13 was revived, putting M12 happening somewhere between Goku going back to the Other World, Vegeta dying vs Fat Buu and Goku and Vegeta being brought back, with their respective power levels. That is the timeslot where Gotenks and Gohan got their spotlight. Earth is overrun by Hitler and fodder, so Buu was already dealt with by Gotenks or Gohan, or both.

M13 has everybody alive and with all their forms unlocked, so unlike M12 it is after the entire Buu saga. And like it was already mentioned, probably long enough after Buu to get Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan(maybe the only one that stopped training, explaining why he is outshined by Vegeta and Gotenks)

Gohan is still in school in M13 so at most it is a year after Buu and he is about to graduate.

What happened it Toei took their Goku who was

SS3 Goku>Kid Buu>Buuhan or

SS3 Goku>Kid Buu>Super Buu

And powered him up again. This same Goku could fight Ultimate Gohan as a SS and performed better than Gotenks inside Buu than Gotenks did as a SS in the rosat.

Goku got hazed in the late Buu saga and in M12 and M13. Gotenks is stronger than Gohan so it is possible Gohan got weaker but it's also possible Gotenks powered up.

Goten and Trunks are now both at home with Dads who train who they like spending time with. Little gains for Goten and Trunks are big gains for Gotenks.

Second scenario is Gohan's lack of trainning lost some power. Either way Goku is haxed in M12 and M13.

[Koitsukai]

M13 and M12 Goku can't be the same Goku for obvious reasons: M12 Goku was dead like Vegeta, while M13 was revived, putting M12 happening somewhere between Goku going back to the Other World, Vegeta dying vs Fat Buu and Goku and Vegeta being brought back, with their respective power levels. That is the timeslot where Gotenks and Gohan got their spotlight. Earth is overrun by Hitler and fodder, so Buu was already dealt with by Gotenks or Gohan, or both.

M13 has everybody alive and with all their forms unlocked, so unlike M12 it is after the entire Buu saga. And like it was already mentioned, probably long enough after Buu to get Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan(maybe the only one that stopped training, explaining why he is outshined by Vegeta and Gotenks)

Gohan is still in school in M13 so at most it is a year after Buu and he is about to graduate.

What happened it Toei took their Goku who was

SS3 Goku>Kid Buu>Buuhan or

SS3 Goku>Kid Buu>Super Buu

And powered him up again. This same Goku could fight Ultimate Gohan as a SS and performed better than Gotenks inside Buu than Gotenks did as a SS in the rosat.

Goku got hazed in the late Buu saga and in M12 and M13. Gotenks is stronger than Gohan so it is possible Gohan got weaker but it's also possible Gotenks powered up.

Goten and Trunks are now both at home with Dads who train who they like spending time with. Little gains for Goten and Trunks are big gains for Gotenks.

Second scenario is Gohan's lack of trainning lost some power. Either way Goku is haxed in M12 and M13.

SS3 Goku never was stronger than Super Buu in any continuity until DBS. Definitely not stronger than Buuhan.
What happened inside of Buu in no way was meant to be taken seriously as in that would've been the actual outcome if the real people fought each other. Toei takes a lot of liberties but they just add filler, they would never go as far as changing the actual scaling/plot of the manga.

[miguelnuva1]

M13 and M12 Goku can't be the same Goku for obvious reasons: M12 Goku was dead like Vegeta, while M13 was revived, putting M12 happening somewhere between Goku going back to the Other World, Vegeta dying vs Fat Buu and Goku and Vegeta being brought back, with their respective power levels. That is the timeslot where Gotenks and Gohan got their spotlight. Earth is overrun by Hitler and fodder, so Buu was already dealt with by Gotenks or Gohan, or both.

M13 has everybody alive and with all their forms unlocked, so unlike M12 it is after the entire Buu saga. And like it was already mentioned, probably long enough after Buu to get Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan(maybe the only one that stopped training, explaining why he is outshined by Vegeta and Gotenks)

Gohan is still in school in M13 so at most it is a year after Buu and he is about to graduate.

What happened it Toei took their Goku who was

SS3 Goku>Kid Buu>Buuhan or

SS3 Goku>Kid Buu>Super Buu

And powered him up again. This same Goku could fight Ultimate Gohan as a SS and performed better than Gotenks inside Buu than Gotenks did as a SS in the rosat.

Goku got hazed in the late Buu saga and in M12 and M13. Gotenks is stronger than Gohan so it is possible Gohan got weaker but it's also possible Gotenks powered up.

Goten and Trunks are now both at home with Dads who train who they like spending time with. Little gains for Goten and Trunks are big gains for Gotenks.

Second scenario is Gohan's lack of trainning lost some power. Either way Goku is haxed in M12 and M13.

SS3 Goku never was stronger than Super Buu in any continuity until DBS. Definitely not stronger than Buuhan.
What happened inside of Buu in no way was meant to be taken seriously as in that would've been the actual outcome if the real people fought each other. Toei takes a lot of liberties but they just add filler, they would never go as far as changing the actual scaling/plot of the manga.

Toei stated Kid Buu was the strongest Buu in the anime and SS3 Goku could beat Buu. It's been a major point of contention for years.

[Koitsukai]

Gohan is still in school in M13 so at most it is a year after Buu and he is about to graduate.

What happened it Toei took their Goku who was

SS3 Goku>Kid Buu>Buuhan or

SS3 Goku>Kid Buu>Super Buu

And powered him up again. This same Goku could fight Ultimate Gohan as a SS and performed better than Gotenks inside Buu than Gotenks did as a SS in the rosat.

Goku got hazed in the late Buu saga and in M12 and M13. Gotenks is stronger than Gohan so it is possible Gohan got weaker but it's also possible Gotenks powered up.

Goten and Trunks are now both at home with Dads who train who they like spending time with. Little gains for Goten and Trunks are big gains for Gotenks.

Second scenario is Gohan's lack of trainning lost some power. Either way Goku is haxed in M12 and M13.

SS3 Goku never was stronger than Super Buu in any continuity until DBS. Definitely not stronger than Buuhan.
What happened inside of Buu in no way was meant to be taken seriously as in that would've been the actual outcome if the real people fought each other. Toei takes a lot of liberties but they just add filler, they would never go as far as changing the actual scaling/plot of the manga.

Toei stated Kid Buu was the strongest Buu in the anime and SS3 Goku could beat Buu. It's been a major point of contention for years.

If by Toei you mean that whole fight inside Buu, this scene makes it clear that their powers were the same althroughout the arc and disproves Goku>Super Buu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwJnOguE85k

If you are referring to some other statement out-of-universe made by Toei, I wouldn't give much importance to it, the show it's pretty straightforward about Buuhan being the strongest.

[miguelnuva1]

SS3 Goku never was stronger than Super Buu in any continuity until DBS. Definitely not stronger than Buuhan.
What happened inside of Buu in no way was meant to be taken seriously as in that would've been the actual outcome if the real people fought each other. Toei takes a lot of liberties but they just add filler, they would never go as far as changing the actual scaling/plot of the manga.

Toei stated Kid Buu was the strongest Buu in the anime and SS3 Goku could beat Buu. It's been a major point of contention for years.

If by Toei you mean that whole fight inside Buu, this scene makes it clear that their powers were the same althroughout the arc and disproves Goku>Super Buu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwJnOguE85k

If you are referring to some other statement out-of-universe made by Toei, I wouldn't give much importance to it, the show it's pretty straightforward about Buuhan being the strongest.

No I referring to the show when they say Kid Buu is the strongest Buu.

viewtopic.php?t=28207

At best the anime treats him stronger than Buuhan and at worst he's stronger than Super Buu. Goku can match and kill this same kid buu.

[Koitsukai]

Toei stated Kid Buu was the strongest Buu in the anime and SS3 Goku could beat Buu. It's been a major point of contention for years.

If by Toei you mean that whole fight inside Buu, this scene makes it clear that their powers were the same althroughout the arc and disproves Goku>Super Buu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwJnOguE85k

If you are referring to some other statement out-of-universe made by Toei, I wouldn't give much importance to it, the show it's pretty straightforward about Buuhan being the strongest.

No I referring to the show when they say Kid Buu is the strongest Buu.

viewtopic.php?t=28207

At best the anime treats him stronger than Buuhan and at worst he's stronger than Super Buu. Goku can match and kill this same kid buu.

That's the anime contradicting itself again, nothing from the show can back that statement up. Fat Buu lasted more vs a Super Buu tier than vs skinny grey Buu? SS2 Vegeta didn't immediately die? Goku is as SS2 already that strong? Vegito strong? inside Buu they admited to be weaker than Super Buu, when did they became stronger and how?

Clearly it is a mistaken outlier because it contradicts the manga and the events in the anime itself while coming out of nowhere as well, also we know it's from one of those filler episodes where continuity isn't cared for at all.
The anime never made the effort to prove that statement because that would've meant re-writing the ending of the manga.

[Mad Swami]

For me, I would say Gogeta would need SSJ3 to win but with it, he stomps. SSJ2 could fight back against Buutenks but SSJ3 is needed to finish the fight. As I said though, Gogeta would win comfortably

Buutenks for me equals like 155B

I like Metamoran fusion being 20X weakest person. So my Gogeta would be 20X63,200,00.
Base Gogeta= 1,264,000,000
SSJ1= 63,200,000,000
SSJ2= 126,400,000,000
SSJ3= 505,600,000,000

But again, just my interpretation. However, this is all retconned since Gogeta was advanced to Vegito's equal