Who do you consider more evil, Zamasu or Moro?

[Magnificent Ponta]

The ongoing Moro arc truly proves Zamasu right.

I don't think I'd say that - rather, I'd say it proves Shin right when he says that things like this should be the purview of the Gods of Destruction. For Zamas to be right, he'd need an actual solution that isn't just 'kill all the mortals'.

Mortals belong in the Universes - they're the whole point of them. The issue is about instances where someone like Moro shows up and upsets the cosmic balance, and the appropriate response; in theory, the God of Destruction ought to be a check on threats like this that need destroying for broader purposes of preservation. It all works without a jumped-up Kaio going rogue.

In theory. The problem, of course, is Beerus personally - his capriciousness and laziness has allowed this to spiral into a crisis.

[SupremeKai25]

The ongoing Moro arc truly proves Zamasu right.

I don't think I'd say that - rather, I'd say it proves Shin right when he says that things like this should be the purview of the Gods of Destruction. For Zamas to be right, he'd need an actual solution that isn't just 'kill all the mortals'.

Mortals belong in the Universes - they're the whole point of them. The issue is about instances where someone like Moro shows up and upsets the cosmic balance, and the appropriate response; in theory, the God of Destruction ought to be a check on threats like this that need destroying for broader purposes of preservation. It all works without a jumped-up Kaio going rogue.

In theory. The problem, of course, is Beerus personally - his capriciousness and laziness has allowed this to spiral into a crisis.

Well but we see that Beerus is not doing anything against Moro, though he seemed uneasy with Goku's behaviour in the last chapter (I predict that Beerus will go in for the kill vs. the weakened Moro, but potentially fail if Toyotaro wants to drag this arc even more). As for Shin, he relies far too much on Beerus. You'd think he would learn his lesson after the Buu arc. How many times did he almost die because Beerus was asleep? I seem to remember one scene where Goku literally threatened to kill Shin, and Beerus by extension.

I wonder what would've happened if Goku never stopped Majin Buu. I guess that monster would've just gone on to destroy all galaxies he could find until nothing was left of Universe 7. Beerus would just wake up to a ruined wasteland with no one living in it. This was a real possibility, Buu was defeated just barely.

[Aim]

The ongoing Moro arc truly proves Zamasu right. Who is the main villain? A fugitive mortal monster driven only by hunger and evil. Why did said villain break free? Because an organization of mortals and a few gods known as the Galactic Patrol are incompetent fools who can't do their job. Who is aiding said villain? A throng of mortal terrorists who only want to spread death and destruction across the universe. What are the Gods doing? Literally just watching. What happened to the only God who tried to intervene? He got erased from existence, because divine laws demand that you do not intervene against evil, even if the entire universe is at stake.

Honestly if Zamasu was still alive I bet he'd have a big smirk on his face right now. Especially to Gowasu, he'd say something like "No wonder our universe lost so quickly when only stupid, weak barbarians live in it." (except for Obuni, he's cool I guess).

Hmm, I disagree somewhat here. One can argue Zamasu is justified in killing everything, only for reasons that wouldn't be mentioned in the show, a few I can think of is rape, "predators", killing, torture, pedophilia, etc. I do think Zamasu became evil though, not in the same way Moro is though.

[Aim]

in theory, the God of Destruction ought to be a check on threats like this that need destroying for broader purposes of preservation. It all works without a jumped-up Kaio going rogue.

In theory. The problem, of course, is Beerus personally - his capriciousness and laziness has allowed this to spiral into a crisis.

Lol, this reminds me of the time that Toriyama said that Buu was there since "time immemorial". Not sure whether he meant Buu was a natural part of keeping things in order while Beerus slept or what, but assuming that is the case, imagine if Pure Buu is meant to be there to stop people like Moro

[SupremeKai25]

The ongoing Moro arc truly proves Zamasu right. Who is the main villain? A fugitive mortal monster driven only by hunger and evil. Why did said villain break free? Because an organization of mortals and a few gods known as the Galactic Patrol are incompetent fools who can't do their job. Who is aiding said villain? A throng of mortal terrorists who only want to spread death and destruction across the universe. What are the Gods doing? Literally just watching. What happened to the only God who tried to intervene? He got erased from existence, because divine laws demand that you do not intervene against evil, even if the entire universe is at stake.

Honestly if Zamasu was still alive I bet he'd have a big smirk on his face right now. Especially to Gowasu, he'd say something like "No wonder our universe lost so quickly when only stupid, weak barbarians live in it." (except for Obuni, he's cool I guess).

Hmm, I disagree somewhat here. One can argue Zamasu is justified in killing everything, only for reasons that wouldn't be mentioned in the show, a few I can think of is rape, "predators", killing, torture, pedophilia, etc. I do think Zamasu became evil though, not in the same way Moro is though.

All those reasons fall under the general argument that "mortals are evil and spread said evil" really. When you look at Master Roshi (especially his behaviour in Super), I'm afraid that there are sexual predators in the Dragon Ball verse too, at which point Zamasu is even more validated in his view.

[Mad Swami]

While Zamasu's backstory was completely botched and execution for him was horrible, you understand what they wanted to do with his character. A youthful Kai who, in efforts to do better by his duty, overextends and falls from grace becoming a twisted version of himself.

Moro so far doesn't have the aspect of being once good. Not that it couldn't exist or be revealed in new chapters, but more so it hasn't been made privy to us as of now.

However, being once good doesn't mean much nor does your perception of your actions. Zamasu, in my eyes, is eviler. For instance, his goal is just insanely more vicious. Moro is just destroying things and what not while Zamasu wanted to kill every mortal, and every god who disagreed with him.

Granted, I think Zamasu is partly just eviler in my eyes due to the reason you meantioned in the original post. Scope. If Moro could match it, then maybe it'd be a different story.

They are a good comparison, however, just due to Zamasu's goal and the fact his story was completed, I'll give it to him.

[Aim]

All those reasons fall under the general argument that "mortals are evil and spread said evil" really. When you look at Master Roshi (especially his behaviour in Super), I'm afraid that there are sexual predators in the Dragon Ball verse too, at which point Zamasu is even more validated in his view.

Yeah, no, I agree, what I'm getting at is that he never specifically mentioned it, the sexual predator thing is a huge justification for the eradication of mortals, he just never brought it up, for obvious reasons.

People tend to only see Zamasu's reasons as "mortals bad, cuz murder", but it would go a lot deeper than that.

[Magnificent Ponta]

All those reasons fall under the general argument that "mortals are evil and spread said evil" really. When you look at Master Roshi (especially his behaviour in Super), I'm afraid that there are sexual predators in the Dragon Ball verse too, at which point Zamasu is even more validated in his view.

Yeah, no, I agree, what I'm getting at is that he never specifically mentioned it, the sexual predator thing is a huge justification for the eradication of mortals, he just never brought it up, for obvious reasons.

People tend to only see Zamasu's reasons as "mortals bad, cuz murder", but it would go a lot deeper than that.

I would argue that whatever 'reasons' he has are quite beside the point, as he ignores that the mortal world is, in point of fact, for mortals, and whatever problems that may entail from mortals who are flawed or wicked, it doesn't necessarily follow in any way that the best thing to do is slaughter them all.

[LoganForkHands73]

All those reasons fall under the general argument that "mortals are evil and spread said evil" really. When you look at Master Roshi (especially his behaviour in Super), I'm afraid that there are sexual predators in the Dragon Ball verse too, at which point Zamasu is even more validated in his view.

Yeah, no, I agree, what I'm getting at is that he never specifically mentioned it, the sexual predator thing is a huge justification for the eradication of mortals, he just never brought it up, for obvious reasons.

People tend to only see Zamasu's reasons as "mortals bad, cuz murder", but it would go a lot deeper than that.

Well, if you have a villain who hates mortals for their capacities for evil, sex crimes probably go without saying as falling under that purview. Plus it's not really that relevant to Zamasu's particular motivation, he's mainly concerned with violence and conflict between mortals that he has personally witnessed. Super is still meant to be a kid-friendly show. Zamasu going around blatantly talking about rape and paedophilia would be pretty jarring. It was bad enough when Regime Superman started talking about it in Injustice. Deep dives into these sorts of topic should be reserved for darker series. Of course, on the same token, Dragon Ball should never have tried to normalise this sort of behaviour with Roshi. I like that Super: Broly subtly condemns the series' past raunchiness when a Freeza Force goon uncomfortably tries to hit on Cheelai, and she makes a point of saying "no means no". It's a better way of communicating that it's not acceptable behaviour than the show simply shouting "sexual harassment = bad" in the middle of a kids' movie.

Also, unrelated, but here's a slice of fried gold that someone recently pointed out: if Zamasu was so noble, why didn't he just use the Super Dragon Balls to wish all mortals (maybe except those on Earth, if he's so concerned with punishing them specifically) out of existence?

[SupremeKai25]

Also, unrelated, but here's a slice of fried gold that someone recently pointed out: if Zamasu was so noble, why didn't he just use the Super Dragon Balls to wish all mortals (maybe except those on Earth, if he's so concerned with punishing them specifically) out of existence?

Because he was a bloodthirsty sadist who wanted to slaughter the mortals himself, which he also saw as his divine duty (he believes ALL mortals should be punished, however the earthlings deserve the worst punishment imaginable). What's that saying from Game of Thrones? "The one who passes the sentence should swing the sword."

Regardless of his insanity, many of his motives and arguments were perfectly valid. That's why he's a three dimensional villain. Though he commits many atrocities, the ideals at the crux are understandable and actually correct in some cases.

[ChronoTwigger]

An interesting discussion.

We don't know a lot of Moro past, but if you'll mind a bit there were dozen of solutions the same Moro could have found to live a different life. The Galactic Patrol already gave one solution to his "problem", and if Moro was willing for, he could have understood his jailing was for the good.
Moro sound to me as one that willingly decided to breaking any law for the sake of doing it. Reaching a position above any possible law is an ego booster, indeed.

Zamasu is different from that. Whatever the timeline, whatever the fate, Zamasu will always end to be the arrogant fallen angel that want to negate the Creation.
In such a sense, Zamasu is the actual "sheer force of nature", not Moro.

Could have Zamasu acted differently than that?
NO.
With a subtle inspection, you can perceive that somehow Zamasu was born fated.

So...
Moro is an "evil actor", while Zamasu is an "evil factor".

An evil actor is a character that decide to get the benefits of evilness instead of many others he could have taken.
Is the boy that bash another boy and feel good into doing that - while he could probably do something else to feel good.

An evil factor is something that by his own nature coincidentally is the cause of painfull situations.
Is Covid-19, or the computer in "I have no mouth and Imust scream".

They are both "evil" of a different nature, so they can't be actually compared.

[Aim]

Well, if you have a villain who hates mortals for their capacities for evil, sex crimes probably go without saying as falling under that purview. Plus it's not really that relevant to Zamasu's particular motivation, he's mainly concerned with violence and conflict between mortals that he has personally witnessed. Super is still meant to be a kid-friendly show. Zamasu going around blatantly talking about rape and paedophilia would be pretty jarring. It was bad enough when Regime Superman started talking about it in Injustice. Deep dives into these sorts of topic should be reserved for darker series. Of course, on the same token, Dragon Ball should never have tried to normalise this sort of behaviour with Roshi. I like that Super: Broly subtly condemns the series' past raunchiness when a Freeza Force goon uncomfortably tries to hit on Cheelai, and she makes a point of saying "no means no". It's a better way of communicating that it's not acceptable behaviour than the show simply shouting "sexual harassment = bad" in the middle of a kids' movie.

Also, unrelated, but here's a slice of fried gold that someone recently pointed out: if Zamasu was so noble, why didn't he just use the Super Dragon Balls to wish all mortals (maybe except those on Earth, if he's so concerned with punishing them specifically) out of existence?

That's what I mean, it'd never go that deep, it's a kids show. Considering Japan's environment, I wonder how long it'll last before they add back that weirdo, Roshi.

I think Zamasu didn't use the Dragon Balls simply because of his personality, he already saw the Gods as lazy and worthless, maybe he'd feel incompetent for taking the "easy" way out.

[ankokudaishogun]

it's worth to remember that in the anime Zamasu taking over Goku's body was a form of atonement for the uselessness of the Gods

Seriously, the Super Re-Read topic shows it's necessary to specify WHICH Zamasu(and Black) one is talking about, anime or manga, for they are very different characters

[Lionel]

Zamasu from the manga is two or three steps shy of the moustache twirler plotting his next harebrained scheme of world domination. From the beginning he was a genocidal extremist who only needed a single push to send him over the edge. About the only provocative moment he had was the debate about a Kaioshin's role in the universe with Gowasu following the incident on planet Barbari. I could understand people holding that Zamasu in contempt as he doesn't really have any redeeming features.

Now Zamasu from the anime is someone who also devolved into systematic extermination but I think Toei went to the trouble of elaborating on his thought process and not turning him into a sadistic Cheshire cat for most of his screen-time. I could better find some points here and there where I felt like Zamasu may have an inkling of a point. It's too bad he kept overstepping the details and continued spouting off his platitudes about his rightful authority or what have you. To be fair, trying to reason with someone like Goku or Vegeta on these matters is like trying to instruct a goldfish on how to use a musical instrument. Zamasu would have probably had more luck arguing with Toppo and Jiren -- emphasis on the word "arguing" with no fighting.

[SupremeKai25]

How many Dragon Ball villains dialogued about philosophical topics like the role of God or the existence of humans? There's a reason why people think Zamasu is a three-dimensional villain.

For some reason however Toyotaro decided to write Zamasu as a generic Dragon Ball villain who is brawny and, obviously, evil right from the get go. Toriyama envisioned the character as a troubled Kai who was genuinely good and pure of heart, but was slowly twisted by the desire for peace and justice. Toyotaro failed completely in conveying the idea that Zamasu is such a type of character, while Toei succeeded flawlessly. Zamasu in the anime doesn't start with the statement "all mortals must be exterminated", but with the question "Master, why do mortals exist and what is their purpose?"

Of course, if Gowasu wasn't an idiot and his responses didn't suck ass, maybe Zamasu would've found another answer to his question.

[Magnificent Ponta]

How many Dragon Ball villains dialogued about philosophical topics like the role of God or the existence of humans? There's a reason why people think Zamasu is a three-dimensional villain.

For some reason however Toyotaro decided to write Zamasu as a generic Dragon Ball villain who is brawny and, obviously, evil right from the get go.

I wouldn't say I agree with this. Zamas in the manga is obviously twisted in his priorities, and values power as an 'absolute good' way more than he should, but he represents the same basic moral problem as in the anime.

The key thing is that Toyotarou doesn't give any truck the the idea that Zamas might be anything other than totally wrong, and he doesn't bother to waste time soft-pedalling that aspect of his depiction. And I think that's fine.

[SupremeKai25]

How many Dragon Ball villains dialogued about philosophical topics like the role of God or the existence of humans? There's a reason why people think Zamasu is a three-dimensional villain.

For some reason however Toyotaro decided to write Zamasu as a generic Dragon Ball villain who is brawny and, obviously, evil right from the get go.

I wouldn't say I agree with this. Zamas in the manga is obviously twisted in his priorities, and values power as an 'absolute good' way more than he should, but he represents the same basic moral problem as in the anime.

The key thing is that Toyotarou doesn't give any truck the the idea that Zamas might be anything other than totally wrong, and he doesn't bother to waste time soft-pedalling that aspect of his depiction. And I think that's fine.

You basically just said "Toyotaro doesn't give you the illusion that he is actually developing Zamasu's character", which is literally the point. Zamasu objectively doesn't have a moral dilemma in the manga, because he already thinks that mortals are evil and should be exterminated.

Let alone the fact that Toyotaro couldn't even be bothered to copy the brilliant symbolism about the tea and roses that Toei came up with, which is key symbolism to represent Zamasu's slow but gradual descent into darkness... it's no wonder that Manga Zamasu is so forgettable. Like all Super Manga characters compared to their Toei versions, really.

[Magnificent Ponta]

You basically just said "Toyotaro doesn't give you the illusion that he is actually developing Zamasu's character", which is literally the point. Zamasu objectively doesn't have a moral dilemma in the manga, because he already thinks that mortals are evil and should be exterminated.

It is possible for a character to be fully realised and yet completely in the wrong, and for a depiction to reflect that directly while remaining perfectly competent. The moral problem is set up and addressed across Chapters 16 and 17, and Zamas's crisis is shown as one of the thing he values most being valueless for his position. Again, I think that's fine.

You can like what you like, but I genuinely don't see this depiction as lacking.

[ankokudaishogun]

Anime Zamasu one can think "he was perfect as a GoD apprentice!".
He even took over Goku's body as a way to "atone"(his twisted way) for the powerlessness of the gods and evil of the mortals.

Manga Zamasu is more of a simple dick, even to himself.

Moro just wants to gorge, not simply feed, himself. He's nothing more than a glutton, and there is a reason gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins.

[Matches Malone]

Moro for overstaying his welcome. At least with Zamasu we only had to listen to his bull*#*# for around 5 months.