Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

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precita
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Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by precita » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:44 am

As seen in the series, usually if a character is much stronger than another character they can be killed or finished off in one blow. And on the opposite side, a weaker character punching a much more powerful one would do no damage at all. Such as in the Cell saga when Perfect Cell was formed for the first time, Krillin and the others do a bunch of attacks on him and he just stands still and doesn't feel anything. It's like punching a brick wall.

However there's other times in a series weaker characters can somehow survive attacks from much stronger opponents without being vaporized or knocked dead immediately. This is something Super is of course the most guilty of, even if you're assuming characters aren't fighting to full strength. Future Trunks at SSJ2 is able to survive energy beams from Goku Black that brought even Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta to their knees, which doesn't really make much sense given the huge gaps of power. In reality Trunks should have been killed in one attack. Especially the time Zamasu grabbed both Goku/Trunks and held them as Goku Black shot them at point blank range.

We also see stuff like Piccolo struggling with Zarbon-tier henchmen, or even in DBZ, Kid Trunks able to kick Fat Boo and send him flying when he was unaware and standing over Vegeta. How do you reconcile it?

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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:00 am

Goku Black was toying with Trunks the entire time. He wanted to keep him around as his punching bag, which he could use to grow more powerful. Once he thought Trunks outlived his usefulness, he sent Future Zamasu to kill him. A stronger character can hold back significantly as to not kill a weaker character.

As for that moment where Goku and Trunks survive the Rosé Kamehameha, I don't know why Black didn't just kill them then and there (oh yes I do, plot armor), but the two couldn't even move after they got hit, and would've died 5 seconds later had it not been for Vegeta.

If anything, there's a more jarring example in the Future Trunks arc, and it's Future Zamasu somehow not killing Bulma, but only knocking her unconscious. Seriously, I don't know how the fuck Bulma survived.

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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by precita » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:38 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:00 am If anything, there's a more jarring example in the Future Trunks arc, and it's Future Zamasu somehow not killing Bulma, but only knocking her unconscious. Seriously, I don't know how the fuck Bulma survived.
Stuff like that is always rather odd, like Kid Boo punching Mr. Satan (twice!) in the final fight and him surviving. At least with Perfect Cell they told us he used virtually no power to fling him out of the ring.

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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by theherodjl » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:34 pm

Sometimes, its just plot armor. Look at GT Kid Goku in base surviving Super Yi Xing Long's minus energy blast when Goku previously needed SSJ4 to withstand such an attack.
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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:48 pm

Here's a bit of a strange potential explanation.

You know how for every action, there's supposed to be an equal or opposite reaction? Maybe a strange version of this is in effect with fighting in this series.

Very often, it's a significantly weaker character who survives things that hurt stronger characters as well. However, something to note is that, often, they get SENT FLYING AWAY by these powerful blows. Maybe the bigger the difference in power, the more likely a stronger opponent is to simply send a weaker character flying away.

So while they take damage, it isn't anywhere near as deadly as it might be because the sheer force of this power difference is enough to constantly knock them away and give them time to recover and catch their breath. Meanwhile, it seems like smaller differences actually matter more; it could be that a smaller difference ends with you not getting knocked around as much and thus taking more of the damage because more of the force is hitting you and not sending you flying away; this would in turn also mean you don't have as much time to recover from any given blow because you're not getting knocked around as much and thus can't catch your breath.

Now obviously, this doesn't make sense IRL, but it might explain things pretty well in the DB universe's strange rules for Ki-enhanced martial arts. Ironically, it's better to either have a small power advantage OR a very large power disadvantage.

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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by Lionel » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:01 pm

Oh, you have examples of this phenomenon throughout DBZ -- base Goku without Kaioken surviving a hit or several from Freeza at 50%, base kid Trunks taking a punch from an earnest Super Buu, ect. Not just that, there have been occasions where a considerably weaker fighter could react to a stronger one such as Ranfan against Nam initially, Krillin avoiding Nappa's retaliatory attack, the Namekian warrior narrowly dodging a strike from Dodoria, ect.

Natural defences and aptitude might go a certain way to explaining this but when the gap is dimensions wide, you have to ask how this is possible. Roshi fighting Jiren has to be one of the most egregious of modern examples.

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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by precita » Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:11 pm

Another thing is Krillin/Yamcha/Tien managing to survive despite being beaten up by the Cell Jr's. Yeah it's obvious the Cell Jr's were toying with them, but the fact that none of the 3 humans managed to get killed is impressive in itself. Especially in the anime where they not only all got back up again and fired shots at Cell during the final Gohan power struggle.

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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:42 pm

There has to be a factor of randomness involved. Just like it's possible IRL to get shot with a gun or struck by lightning and survive.
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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:08 pm

There's also likely mentality to factor in, as well.

Does the stronger fighter want to kill the weaker one, or simply beat the crap outta them? Because your mental state and intentions matter just as much as your actual power level; if you aren't focused on simply taking down your opponent quickly and cleanly, a fight can drag out despite the power difference.

Combined with what I stated above about greater differences in power sending weaker martial artists flying away more often than actually dealing damage, you mostly get a case of massively stronger fighters underestimating how tough their opponents are and thus mostly just knocking them around instead of actually hurting them well.

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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by precita » Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:32 pm

That's the case with Goku and Golden Freeza. As seen in the climax of the film, Goku could have vaporized Freeza right from the start and done away with him in 1 attack. Instead he fights him for a long time not even using his full strength. Goku didn't need to trade all those blows and punches with Freeza, he severely outclassed him. I guess Freeza withstanding those blows means Goku was still testing him to see how strong he had gotten.

We later see the same with Vegeta, he beats Freeza up a little bit before doing what would have been the final blow, not because he needed to but he wanted to get his revenge on him.

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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:41 pm

precita wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:32 pm That's the case with Goku and Golden Freeza. As seen in the climax of the film, Goku could have vaporized Freeza right from the start and done away with him in 1 attack. Instead he fights him for a long time not even using his full strength. Goku didn't need to trade all those blows and punches with Freeza, he severely outclassed him. I guess Freeza withstanding those blows means Goku was still testing him to see how strong he had gotten.

We later see the same with Vegeta, he beats Freeza up a little bit before doing what would have been the final blow, not because he needed to but he wanted to get his revenge on him.
I thought by that point Freeza had exhausted his stamina and become significantly weaker, even reverting out of his golden form.

The attack that Goku used to kill him probably wouldn't have done much damage if he had been fresh and ready for the fight.
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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by Cipher » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:37 pm

theherodjl wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:34 pm Sometimes, its just plot armor. Look at GT Kid Goku in base surviving Super Yi Xing Long's minus energy blast when Goku previously needed SSJ4 to withstand such an attack.
D-...does he?

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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by Jack Bz » Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:02 am

There are plenty of inconsistencies that can't really be explained, but generally I think the most important factor is if the character is specifically trying to do a killing blow or not.

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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:19 pm

Cipher wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:37 pm
theherodjl wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:34 pm Sometimes, its just plot armor. Look at GT Kid Goku in base surviving Super Yi Xing Long's minus energy blast when Goku previously needed SSJ4 to withstand such an attack.
D-...does he?
Yeah and what's worse, Goku was already a bit tired from the extended use of SSJ4(meaning he wasn't even at full power in base form) and he still withstood Super Yi Xing Long's blast. Getting back up from the attack not long after and forming a Genki Dama to boot.
Goku's plot armor in that instance was probably one of the most absurd examples in the series.
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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:36 pm

I thought Goku had basically ascended to a higher plane of existence at that point, hence why nothing could affect him.

I mean, it's still pretty BS, but it is what it is.

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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by ABED » Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:19 pm

theherodjl wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:19 pm
Cipher wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:37 pm
theherodjl wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:34 pm Sometimes, its just plot armor. Look at GT Kid Goku in base surviving Super Yi Xing Long's minus energy blast when Goku previously needed SSJ4 to withstand such an attack.
D-...does he?
Yeah and what's worse, Goku was already a bit tired from the extended use of SSJ4(meaning he wasn't even at full power in base form) and he still withstood Super Yi Xing Long's blast. Getting back up from the attack not long after and forming a Genki Dama to boot.
Goku's plot armor in that instance was probably one of the most absurd examples in the series.
He's dead and these are stories, not an RPG. The rules don't have to make logical sense, they just have to retain an emotional logic.
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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by precita » Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:22 pm

So how do people justify Roshi being punched by Frost multiple times and then blasted and still being able to get up? Yes Frost is holding back, (and he says so), but the gap in power between them is huge. Frost has to be anywhere above Super Saiyan 2 level and Roshi is well...human.

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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by TobyS » Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:51 pm

precita wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:22 pm So how do people justify Roshi being punched by Frost multiple times and then blasted and still being able to get up? Yes Frost is holding back, (and he says so), but the gap in power between them is huge. Frost has to be anywhere above Super Saiyan 2 level and Roshi is well...human.
Flippant answer, because the anime is dumb.

Specific answer the ToP is unique in that it has a no kill rule, any character with Ki control can lower their level to anyone elses below them or down to nothing if they want.

It's easy for a character with a powerlevel of say 100 fighting a character with a power level of 10 to throw punches with a power of like 5-20.

Even when having Psudeo UI used against him, Jiren just increased the power/speed of his attacks until they were sufficient to knock Roshi out but still not killing him. We literally see this happen. A kiai would probably be the next best thing.
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He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by Mac » Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:21 pm

theherodjl wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:19 pm
Cipher wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:37 pm
theherodjl wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:34 pm Sometimes, its just plot armor. Look at GT Kid Goku in base surviving Super Yi Xing Long's minus energy blast when Goku previously needed SSJ4 to withstand such an attack.
D-...does he?
Yeah and what's worse, Goku was already a bit tired from the extended use of SSJ4(meaning he wasn't even at full power in base form) and he still withstood Super Yi Xing Long's blast. Getting back up from the attack not long after and forming a Genki Dama to boot.
Goku's plot armor in that instance was probably one of the most absurd examples in the series.
Didn't a writer or someone say that he might've actually been dead after that attack and was a spirit or something for the Spirit Bomb part?

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Re: Explanation to why weaker characters can withstand stronger ones attacks?

Post by Psajdak » Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:38 am

Basically, ATK:0 DEF:9999.

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