Vegeta vs Goku: Who was the true winner?

[Mr.Piccolo]

Let's start after the kaioken x4 kamehameha. Vegeta lost that struggle but didn't lose too much energy. His armor was shattered but not as much as his pride. Goku made some sort of note on that with Yajirobe, who by the way injured the great Son Goku by giving him a pat on the back. Vegeta made a the artifical moon which lowered his power..*sigh*..over 9000.

Keep in mind that the weaker Goku used a move that boosted his power and left him in a weakened state against a Vegeta that was already stronger than Goku in the first place. So Vegeta goes Oozaru and I estimate his power is about 100,000 against a weakened Goku. Goku begins the spirit bomb but once Vegeta finds him, he attacks Goku causing the bomb to lose power.

While I think the Genki Dama is very powerful, Vegeta was a much stronger opponent than everyone expected. I mean even after all that, he took a sword slash to the back, fought Gohan in his Oozaru form, and had him fall on top of him in that form. Yet he still was able to move around enough to retreat.

As we know, Vegeta gets his tail cut off, a weaker spirit bomb thrown at him, and crushed by an Oozaru Gohan. This may be a dumb way to look at it but.. at least Vegeta was still able to move. Goku could've move at all or speak for that matter. So after everything he took, Vegeta was still in better condition.

Also keep in mind that Gohan was to be the hero of DBZ, which is why his blow was the one to make Vegeta retreat. The intention was probrably that this guy Vegeta stood up to Goku and his stongest move (the Genki Dama), he must be amazing. With Gohan making the save at the end, the fans would begin to focus on his character.However, I think this backfired because of the fight between Goku and Vegeta, and only made Goku that much more popular with the fans.

I think this was a period of Gohan becoming the hero: his rite of passage. But this is hardly the arc of Gohan taking center stage imo. I mean, Goku still have a lot of years ahead of him. Look at the results of the Buu Arc. :B
-Rick

[Mystic Jack]

Goku definitely won the first bout, Vegeta retreated, nuff said. The other fight I'd say would be a draw, as Vegeta only knocked Goku out because his back was turned and was "defenceless"

[Lavender Saiyan]

Sure, the Ki in the Spirit Bomb is amazing in comparison to say Krillin or what they had sensed thus far from Goku. But it could have been MUCH stronger.

[the_abberration]

Let's start after the kaioken x4 kamehameha. Vegeta lost that struggle but didn't lose too much energy. His armor was shattered but not as much as his pride. Goku made some sort of note on that with Yajirobe, who by the way injured the great Son Goku by giving him a pat on the back. Vegeta made a the artifical moon which lowered his power..*sigh*..over 9000.

Okay...and my argument is that if Vegeta had not gone Oozaru and Goku used the spirit bomb at "full strength" it may not had work.

Remember I said in response to Lavender Saiyan:

Now, if Vegeta had not used the energy to become OOzaru he would have been stronger in his base form. That would have made a difference in relation to the energy Goku would have gained during the first attempt as per your theory.

So are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Your post is confusing me. Also if you read my post you would see, I am speaking of instances when Vegeta was not transformed. The first as per Lavender Saiyan's thoery and the second as per the manga/anime.

Keep in mind that the weaker Goku used a move that boosted his power and left him in a weakened state against a Vegeta that was already stronger than Goku in the first place. So Vegeta goes Oozaru and I estimate his power is about 100,000 against a weakened Goku. Goku begins the spirit bomb but once Vegeta finds him, he attacks Goku causing the bomb to lose power.

Again, I am speaking in relation to when Vegeta was not in his Oozaru state. Once hypothetical....once that actually happened.

If Vegeta managed to survive a Genki Dama in his base form when it was actually used on him, why wouldn't he be able to survive it if Goku had not lost most of his energy when making the first one? As you posted.

As we know, Vegeta gets his tail cut off, a weaker spirit bomb thrown at him, and crushed by an Oozaru Gohan. This may be a dumb way to look at it but.. at least Vegeta was still able to move. Goku could've move at all or speak for that matter. So after everything he took, Vegeta was still in better condition.

Again, are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

I think this was a period of Gohan becoming the hero: his rite of passage. But this is hardly the arc of Gohan taking center stage imo. I mean, Goku still have a lot of years ahead of him. Look at the results of the Buu Arc. :B
-Rick

Again, I'm confused. I never said this was the arc that Gohan takes center stage. I said their intent might have been to build interest in Gohan's character by him dealing the final blow on Vegeta. Your first sentence seemed to agree with my view. But after that it goes in the other direction.

I think an empass may have been reached here. I think it may be best if I back away from this topic after this.

[Mr.Piccolo]

Goku definitely won the first bout, Vegeta retreated, nuff said.

As the previous pages implied, the winner of the first fight was Vegeta or it was an even draw. Goku was weakened after the energy struggle and Vegeta goes Oozaru only to lose his tail, get hit by a spirit bomb, slashed by a sword, and crushed by an oozaru. After being triple teamed, Vegeta is still able to move. All in all, Vegeta was the victor and this is coming from someone that hates Vegeta for the most part. Saying Goku won because Vegeta retreated is like saying, I don't know, Goku won because Vegeta retreated.

The other fight I'd say would be a draw, as Vegeta only knocked Goku out because his back was turned and was "defenseless"

Goku, being a trained warrior, should've known better. All is fair in war, doesn't matter who you're fighting.

(His/Her post)

Oh, heh, I should read more carefully then ^^; I agree with you for the most part.

Aha! I forgot to mention that Goku admitted to defeat. "Shut up, you beat me. You were stronger than I thought. If you think that's something to be proud of, you'll learn.." That wasn't word for word from the manga but Goku does admit defeat. When someone admits defeat, I assume the other person wins.
-Rick

[Victator Supreme]

It was an all out war, and he was forced to retreat and he lost.

[ChaotixXero]

Goku was so beaten he couldn't retreat.

[Victator Supreme]

He had no intention of retreating. But it is beyond the point. Vegeta was forced to retreat. In fact if not for Goku, he would have died at Kuririn's hands.

[ChaotixXero]

If not for Vegeta, everyone would have died on Namek.

[Victator Supreme]

Um no.

[ChaotixXero]

Uh, yeah. Zarbon would have killed Gohan and Kuririn, Guldo would have killed them too if they survived Zarbon. Dodoria would have gotten them sooner or later too. They wouldn't have had armor. They wouldn't have gotten all the dragonballs either. They wouldn't have holded off Freeza while Goku recovered. Goku couldn't have survived by himself on Namek and Bulma couldn't do anything.

[Victator Supreme]

How is that relevant to the battle between Goku and Vegeta?

[ChaotixXero]

You were the one who brought out "Vegeta would have died if it weren't for Goku."

[Mr.Piccolo]

That whole "cause and effect" back and forth stuff gets tired. Just end it with if Namek never had that disaster, Kami would never come to earth and there would be no story. Okay?
-Rick

[ChaotixXero]

If Kami never went to Earth then Vegeta would have no reason to go to Earth.

[Victator Supreme]

Vegeta would have went to kill the traitor. That or Raditz would have successfully converted little brother to his cause.

But no matter how you cut it Vegeta lost the war with Goku. When you esacpe with you with your life, only because your enemyhad mercy, you lost.

[KinoFourpaws]

That whole "cause and effect" back and forth stuff gets tired. Just end it with if Namek never had that disaster, Kami would never come to earth and there would be no story. Okay?
-Rick

If Kami never went to Earth then Vegeta would have no reason to go to Earth.

Vegeta would have went to kill the traitor. That or Roaditz would have successfullyb converted little brother to his cause.

This is actually quite amusing.

What's your point, trying to come up with these snappy comebacks, Chaotix? You just totally ignored poor Mr. Piccolo. He wasn't even arguing with you... :/

Give it up. This isn't grade school. .__.;

[ChaotixXero]

I wasn't arguing. I was jsut stating that if Kami never went to Earth then Vegeta would have no point to going there. He never cared about Raditz. I never meant to call out a debate, sorry.

[Victator Supreme]

He would have went on the principle of the matter. Besides without Kami there are no Dragonballs. With Dragonballs, Bulma would have never of found Goku. So he would be a hillbilly who turns into a giant monkey every few months. Maybe Roshi would have found him anyway and trained him. But in this timeline many things would be diffeent.

1. No Yamcha. He would still be robbing dudes in the desert.

2. Pilaf may or may not still be trying to take over the world. Same goes for the Red Ribbon army. But without the Dragonballs to inspire them, who knows.

3. Mercenary Tao is still the top assassain in the world. Though he maybe due for a run in with Tenshinhan, who is gunning for his spot.