Tenshinhan an alien?

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Sat May 12, 2007 2:36 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:
Pieter wrote:
Jerseymilk wrote: Even if he didn't write them, they were made with his approval. That's good enough for me.
The dub was also made with his approval. What's the difference?
Uh ya....that's not even an accurate comparison. The Daizenshuu were made to be companion guide books to the series. Toriyama himself makes a foreword at the beginning of them, praising the job the staff did at sorting out his work. I don't seem to recall Toriyama doing that with Funi's dub.

As for Desire's point about GT, hey, that's good enough for me too.*shrug* Just as the entirety of the anime version is, which he's always stated he was pleased with and even worked with the animators sometimes. I may not personally like GT, but Toriyama does. That's just tough for me isn't it?

Really when it comes down to it, it's *his* work. He can leave unanswered questions and change up as much as he wants. Honestly, some people here are starting to sound as bad as "otakukin". *shudders*>>

It was just a question. As for GT Toriyama named it a "side-story".

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat May 12, 2007 2:57 pm

Just for clarification's sake, the daizenshuu says that Tenshinhan is descended from "the three-eyes" who emmigrated to Earth years ago.

Lavender Saiyan · Post by **Lavender Saiyan** » Sat May 12, 2007 3:51 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:
Lavender Saiyan wrote:
They're not his words, technically, since he didn't actually write the Daizenshû. But I'd think the information does come from him, and that's all that matters, the way I see it.
Not true, I'd never take a word from the Daizenshuu seriously that's not in the Manga. Esspecially when the Daizenshuu is known to directly contradict the Manga.
Even if he didn't write them, they were made with his approval. That's good enough for me.

It's basically a Fanbook. I'd take a Daizenshuu written by EX more seriously than those books. I'm not joking.

So Ten could be an alien, but there's nothing in the series proper to support that, and such a statement is very unlike Toriyama's writing style

Exactly, there is no actual canon basis for these claims.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat May 12, 2007 4:14 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
Jerseymilk wrote:Even if he didn't write them, they were made with his approval. That's good enough for me.
*cough*cough*GT*cough*

The daizenshuu says he's an alien, but that's quite 'strange' considering how Toriyama writes. Toriyama makes it clear when someone is non-human, even if that character wasn't originally intended to be an alien. Look at Goku and Piccolo. Both were introduced as non-aliens, but as Toriyama changed the story, they became aliens.

So Ten could be an alien, but there's nothing in the series proper to support that, and such a statement is very unlike Toriyama's writing style.

1) Much of GT is based off suggestions and character designs by Toriyama.

2) It isn't that unbelievable that Toriyama would write something like that. Just look at the abundantly extensive notes he made and never used regarding Akkuman. It's entirely possible, if not probable, that he original wanted to make Tenshinhan descended from the three-eyes, changed his mind, and gave the daizenshuu writers his notes about them.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat May 12, 2007 4:54 pm

Lavender Saiyan wrote:It's basically a Fanbook.

Of course not. It's official, published by Shûeisha, and Toriyama was involved.
What more do you need? Toriyama being the actual writer? Mangaka don't write guidebooks...

I'd take a Daizenshuu written by EX more seriously than those books. I'm not joking.

You've got to be...

there is no actual canon basis for these claims.

Except for the Daizenshû. Of course, if you consider them "fanbooks" for some reason...

Dayspring wrote:It isn't that unbelievable that Toriyama would write something like that. Just look at the abundantly extensive notes he made and never used regarding Akkuman. It's entirely possible, if not probable, that he original wanted to make Tenshinhan descended from the three-eyes, changed his mind, and gave the daizenshuu writers his notes about them.

Or maybe he didn't change his mind. Maybe he simply never got to use that particular detail within the series.
Heck, maybe he decided that after the series was over.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat May 12, 2007 5:17 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Lavender Saiyan wrote:It's basically a Fanbook.
Of course not. It's official, published by Shûeisha, and Toriyama was involved.
What more do you need? Toriyama being the actual writer? Mangaka don't write guidebooks...

I'd take a Daizenshuu written by EX more seriously than those books. I'm not joking.
You've got to be...

there is no actual canon basis for these claims.
Except for the Daizenshû. Of course, if you consider them "fanbooks" for some reason...

Dayspring wrote:It isn't that unbelievable that Toriyama would write something like that. Just look at the abundantly extensive notes he made and never used regarding Akkuman. It's entirely possible, if not probable, that he original wanted to make Tenshinhan descended from the three-eyes, changed his mind, and gave the daizenshuu writers his notes about them.
Or maybe he didn't change his mind. Maybe he simply never got to use that particular detail within the series.
Heck, maybe he decided that after the series was over.

Or, as Toriyama often does, he completely and utterly forgot who Tien was, saw he had three eyes, and then came up with that information for them right then and there.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Sat May 12, 2007 5:47 pm

Lavender Saiyan wrote:
Jerseymilk wrote:
Lavender Saiyan wrote: Not true, I'd never take a word from the Daizenshuu seriously that's not in the Manga. Esspecially when the Daizenshuu is known to directly contradict the Manga.
Even if he didn't write them, they were made with his approval. That's good enough for me.
It's basically a Fanbook. I'd take a Daizenshuu written by EX more seriously than those books. I'm not joking.

So Ten could be an alien, but there's nothing in the series proper to support that, and such a statement is very unlike Toriyama's writing style
Exactly, there is no actual canon basis for these claims.

I find it really, really amusing how fans can argue that they disregard these books because Toriyama didn't write them, when simultaneously, the staff themselves, did a lot consulting, research, and study to create them, and the original author can't even be bothered to remember facts properly so his manga remained consistent in it's details. XD The man doesn't even remember who Kamesennin is nowadays people.

They aren't "fanbooks". Were they made by random DB "fans"? No. They were made by the people that worked on the publishing of the manga and creation of the anime. I find it distressing that you would lump the Daizenshuu in the same category as that God awful crap book that that mother and son wrote a couple of years back. >>

To answer Pieter's question: We're talking about companion guides that were published with the approval and help of the original creator while DB was still going in Japan. We aren't talking about some American company that got the rights cheap from Toei, to broadcast and dub said series, years afterwards, when the manga-ka had moved on and wasn't even bothering about it anymore. (refer up to my Kamesennin statement again to see how much he cared at that point)

I swear I see no other fans of a community have this attitude and view as much as DB ones when it comes to reference books that the publishing companies put out. *sigh*It's really sad and discouraging to me. :/

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sat May 12, 2007 8:35 pm

Even in all my so called "Manga Purism", I can't deny the legitimacy of the Daizenshuu. Regardless of where the detail came from, we can't discard the note of Tenshinhan's "alien-hood" as it is specified. It may be an unexplored idea from Toriyama-sensei or just something he whipped up on the spot, but it just doesn't seem anywhere near likely someone who was writing the Daizenshuu made it up. They just would've left that much of his profile shorter if they had to, or fill it up with stuff about his unique techniques.

But who else can (in the Manga) use Shishin (Four Bodies) and Shiyo-ken (Fist of Four Arms) ? The guy was possibly the most unique fighter in the entire series. Having a reason behind it besides brilliance doesn't disgust me.

Lavender Saiyan · Post by **Lavender Saiyan** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:09 pm

Duo wrote:Even in all my so called "Manga Purism", I can't deny the legitimacy of the Daizenshuu.

Those books directly contradict stated Power Levels though. It put Nappa at 4,000...Goku and Krillin against Ginyu below 20,000. If this book can't get directly stated nukmbers correct, how can you NOT question the legitamacy of something never directly stated not only in the Manga. But in Filler and Movies too.

Or, as Toriyama often does, he completely and utterly forgot who Tenshinhan was, saw he had three eyes, and then came up with that information for them right then and there.

I'm all for that theory. Maybe one day Toriyama will look at Piccolo and think he's a Cucumber.

Seriously though, I'm not denying the possibility of Tien being a decendant of an alien race somehow. Similar to the way Yusuke Urameshi (Yu Yu Hakusho) was part demon. But this book, though a good guide book, is not the 100% truth of DragonBall. It can't be taken as a word-for-word canon fact.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:25 pm

Lavender Saiyan wrote:
Duo wrote:Even in all my so called "Manga Purism", I can't deny the legitimacy of the Daizenshuu.
Those books directly contradict stated Power Levels though. It put Nappa at 4,000...Goku and Krillin against Ginyu below 20,000. If this book can't get directly stated nukmbers correct, how can you NOT question the legitamacy of something never directly stated not only in the Manga. But in Filler and Movies too.

Or, as Toriyama often does, he completely and utterly forgot who Tenshinhan was, saw he had three eyes, and then came up with that information for them right then and there.
I'm all for that theory. Maybe one day Toriyama will look at Piccolo and think he's a Cucumber.

Seriously though, I'm not denying the possibility of Tenshinhan being a decendant of an alien race somehow. Similar to the way Yusuke Urameshi (Yu Yu Hakusho) was part demon. But this book, though a good guide book, is not the 100% truth of DragonBall. It can't be taken as a word-for-word canon fact.

Uhh...there's a difference between, typos, bad math and flat out lies though. Nappa's actual PL was NEVER stated outside the daizenshuu's listing of 4,000. The same thing goes for Krillin + Gohan against the Ginyu Force: the manga only states that their PLs have both exceeded 10,000. Last I checked, 13,000 and 14,000 was greater than 10,000. The only flat out mistake is Radditz's PL in that section, but that could be chocked up to bad proofing since in 2 other sections it gives Radditz's proper PL.

Hell, even Toriyama made more mistakes than the daizenshuu made. After Earth Vegeta went from 18,000 to 24,000. Against Recoom, Toriyama lowered him to 20,000. At least the daizenshuu fixed that. There's also the problem with Soba/Shuu's name, and the whole date of the Cell Games to list some of numerous mistakes made by Toriyama.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:47 pm

Yeah, the power levels thing is a bit off, but I try not to let my former PL obsession play a role in judging the rest of the Daizenshuu. Either way, most "errors" were either lacking in context or just minor flaws.

However, Dayspring, the statement was that Vegeta (against Reacoom) was "Over 20,000" so, by what you said in regard to Gohan and Kuririn, it is still technically correct.

Also, Nappa may well have been at 4,000 before he went his fullest against Goku. They simply forgot to include the fact he peaked out near or at 8,000.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat May 12, 2007 10:25 pm

Duo wrote:Yeah, the power levels thing is a bit off, but I try not to let my former PL obsession play a role in judging the rest of the Daizenshuu. Either way, most "errors" were either lacking in context or just minor flaws.

However, Dayspring, the statement was that Vegeta (against Reacoom) was "Over 20,000" so, by what you said in regard to Gohan and Kuririn, it is still technically correct.

Also, Nappa may well have been at 4,000 before he went his fullest against Goku. They simply forgot to include the fact he peaked out near or at 8,000.

Woops. Forgot the "over." Ignore that example then.

As for Nappa, my personal preference was that he peaked in the 7,500 - 8,000 range, but his bio specifically states his max is "in the 4,000s." However, it's still possible that he be that much weaker than Goku: if the fight got too close, Vegeta could just step in. Vegeta only got pissed because Nappa disobeyed him, getting himself paralyzed in the process t'boot. Having a PL of only 4,000-something also explains how Gohan's 2,800PL Masenko hurt Nappa's arm so much, as well as how Goku could take Nappa's energy attack without blocking it.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sat May 12, 2007 10:40 pm

Dayspring wrote:As for Nappa, my personal preference was that he peaked in the 7,500 - 8,000 range, but his bio specifically states his max is "in the 4,000s." However, it's still possible that he be that much weaker than Goku: if the fight got too close, Vegeta could just step in. Vegeta only got pissed because Nappa disobeyed him, getting himself paralyzed in the process t'boot. Having a PL of only 4,000-something also explains how Gohan's 2,800PL Masenko hurt Nappa's arm so much, as well as how Goku could take Nappa's energy attack without blocking it.

Nappa specifically powered up three times though. However, he only needed to power up once to dominate everyone who arrived before Goku. Gohan's Masenko of 2,800 hardly hurt Nappa at this point. After Nappa plowed the blast into the ground he simply smiled off the slight pain he stated he felt.

When Goku shows up and knocks Nappa around a little he does a further power up, yet still can't come close to Goku. Can't even land a hit. Goku in his "over 8,000" awesomeness can't be touched.

After Nappa starts going insane at this, Vegeta warns him to calm down. Nappa settles down and does his final power up we see. In this position he still can't get a hit on Goku in the air, but even Goku is impressed with how well he's keeping up, and sweats after Nappa's ultimate attack.

If Nappa were 2x weaker than Goku, he wouldn't be able to do any of that in the end. Look at Raditz ("over 1,200") when compared to Goku and Piccolo (416 and 408). He's about 3x as strong as them, and had it not been for their ki techniques, they wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell to survive.

Lavender Saiyan · Post by **Lavender Saiyan** » Sat May 12, 2007 10:51 pm

It's stated though that Goku was at 8,000 and Goku and Napa were about even. Also, Krillin and Gohan beat up on Ginyu in Goku's Body who maxed out at 23,000.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat May 12, 2007 11:12 pm

Lavender Saiyan wrote:It's stated though that Goku was at 8,000 and Goku and Napa were about even. Also, Krillin and Gohan beat up on Ginyu in Goku's Body who maxed out at 23,000.

1) The Power Level section, for the most part, was rounding off. As was the case with Toriyama once he got into the bigger numbers. The specific PL of Goku was unknown at that time. Also, it did not make any such statement about them being about even.

2) Ginyu couldn't control Goku's body. What little energy he could control was being wasted all over the place. Plus Krillin wasn't beating on Ginyu. He only got one attack in from behind.

3) Gohan, after getting the snot kicked out of him by Recoom, has his spine broken and starts to die. If not for Goku forcing him to swallow a senzu, he'd be dead. It's really likely that the zenkai he got, along with the help of Krillin, would be enough to handle a max PL of 23,000.

Coola Yagami · Post by **Coola Yagami** » Sat May 12, 2007 11:23 pm

As far as I'm concerned, seeing as DragonWorld has animals and stuff, Ten was just plain born with a third eye, simple as that. You think if he was an alien or developed an eye through enlightenment, they wouldn't have covered that? They didn't explain why Chaozu looks like that and why Kuririn was born without a nose. Or why Marron was born with no nose and suddenly had one when she got into her teen years.

I also find it odd that in the 'Remastered set' of season 1, they called Ten an alien, yet they still called Chaozu a human.

Lavender Saiyan · Post by **Lavender Saiyan** » Sat May 12, 2007 11:24 pm

2) Ginyu couldn't control Goku's body. What little energy he could control was being wasted all over the place. Plus Krillin wasn't beating on Ginyu. He only got one attack in from behind.

You're making things up. Ginyu's PL was 23,000. Nothing is stated about his energy being wasted. He couldn't unlock Goku's power. He fought with the capability of 23,000. Also, Krillin and Ginyu were fighting even. Look through the fight. Krillin hits him fro behind, then the fight continues in the next volume. Ginyu throws a punch which Krillin easily dodges. Then they go on fighting together rapidly. Krillin appears calm while Ginyu is rowdy and mad due to his inability to win. Vegeta then goes on to say that Krillin and Gohan haven't beaten Ginyu because he looks like Goku. Meaning Krillin wasn't even going all-out yet.

Mr. Announcer · Post by **Mr. Announcer** » Sun May 13, 2007 3:26 pm

It's not like I want to discredit the Daizenshuu but having watched the entire series through and knowing how weird characters can be and still be considered human, I just don't buy it. I mean look at Chaozu and Lunch, you could just as easily say that they were descended from an alien race of white midgets or aliens that transform when they sneeze.....only you don't! Compared to that, what? Tenshinhan just has an extra eye. No biggie. I can understand that it may be something Toriyama thought of after the fact like Gokuh and Piccolo being aliens and such but I mean if Tenshinhan had been one don't you think he would have made a big kafriggin deal out of that too?

I suppose there's really no point in arguing since we don't really understand the origin of the information whether it was just Toriyama being forgetful or whatever, but all I can say is that given there was no daizenshuu, I wouldn't think for a second that Tenshinhan wasn't a human in the context of Dragonball.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun May 13, 2007 3:34 pm

Lavender Saiyan wrote:
2) Ginyu couldn't control Goku's body. What little energy he could control was being wasted all over the place. Plus Krillin wasn't beating on Ginyu. He only got one attack in from behind.
You're making things up. Ginyu's PL was 23,000. Nothing is stated about his energy being wasted. He couldn't unlock Goku's power. He fought with the capability of 23,000. Also, Krillin and Ginyu were fighting even. Look through the fight. Krillin hits him fro behind, then the fight continues in the next volume. Ginyu throws a punch which Krillin easily dodges. Then they go on fighting together rapidly. Krillin appears calm while Ginyu is rowdy and mad due to his inability to win. Vegeta then goes on to say that Krillin and Gohan haven't beaten Ginyu because he looks like Goku. Meaning Krillin wasn't even going all-out yet.

And you're taking things completely out of context! Power Levels were never the be-all and end-all of Dragonball, let alone this late in their appearences. Ginyu tapping into 180,000 got him 23,000. He's also lost his concentration on the battle due to the fact that he can't control his body. The wild swing you just cited proves that, as well as the fact that Goku brings up that Ginyu can't control his body yet.

Lavender Saiyan · Post by **Lavender Saiyan** » Sun May 13, 2007 4:00 pm

You're assuming things. Ginyu was fighting hard because he was losing. As we've seen basically every other villian do when backed into a corner.

Kanzenshuu

Tenshinhan an alien?

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