Theory on how much power it takes to destroy planets

[Kamiccolo9]

That's way to much sciency math stuff for me

[rereboy]

Well, Vegeta could generate a Final Flash capable of possibly destroying Cell, but I doubt he could survive it himself. I doubt that Goku could tank his own Warp Kamehameha, that Tenshinhan could tank a Shin Kikoho, etc. Buu's planet busting attack blew himself to bits.

I don't agree with that. If Vegeta could achieve such a power level to attack, he could also achieve such a power level to defend. And if he could match with his defense an attack, I don't see how the attack would kill him. It would probably hurt him, though. It worked agaisnt Cell because Cell underestimated him and didn't consider that the attack could possibly surpass the level of power he was using at that moment. And after the attack Vegeta was worn out.

Shin Kikoho and Buu are special cases. The Shin Kikoho saps the very life force of the user and even endagers the life expectancy of the user to increase the attack. For that reason, I doubt that Tenshinhan could achieve a defense as high as his own attack. Buu on the other hand can be pierced by bullets and be torn apart by normal explosions because of his abnormal body, so his body is useless as an indicator.

[Kamiccolo9]

Well, Vegeta could generate a Final Flash capable of possibly destroying Cell, but I doubt he could survive it himself. I doubt that Goku could tank his own Warp Kamehameha, that Tenshinhan could tank a Shin Kikoho, etc. Buu's planet busting attack blew himself to bits.

I don't agree with that. If Vegeta could achieve such a power level to attack, he could also achieve such a power level to defend. And if he could match with his defense an attack, I don't see how the attack would kill him. It would probably hurt him, though. It worked agaisnt Cell because Cell underestimated him and didn't consider that the attack could possibly surpass the level of power he was using at that moment. And after the attack Vegeta was worn out.

Shin Kikoho and Buu are special cases. The Shin Kikoho saps the very life force of the user and even endagers the life expectancy of the user to increase the attack. For that reason, I doubt that Tenshinhan could achieve a defense as high as his own attack. Buu on the other hand can be pierced by bullets and be torn apart by normal explosions because of his abnormal body, so his body is useless as an indicator.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I just don't see Vegeta surviving his Final Flash. Or any of the other's surviving their own hugely amped up attacks.

[Draken]

Well, Vegeta could generate a Final Flash capable of possibly destroying Cell, but I doubt he could survive it himself. I doubt that Goku could tank his own Warp Kamehameha, that Tenshinhan could tank a Shin Kikoho, etc. Buu's planet busting attack blew himself to bits.

I don't agree with that. If Vegeta could achieve such a power level to attack, he could also achieve such a power level to defend. And if he could match with his defense an attack, I don't see how the attack would kill him. It would probably hurt him, though. It worked agaisnt Cell because Cell underestimated him and didn't consider that the attack could possibly surpass the level of power he was using at that moment. And after the attack Vegeta was worn out.

Shin Kikoho and Buu are special cases. The Shin Kikoho saps the very life force of the user and even endagers the life expectancy of the user to increase the attack. For that reason, I doubt that Tenshinhan could achieve a defense as high as his own attack. Buu on the other hand can be pierced by bullets and be torn apart by normal explosions because of his abnormal body, so his body is useless as an indicator.

You can achieve a kick strong enough to break a thick wooden board in two. Can you also tank a kick strong enough to break a thick wooden board in two?
A gun can shoot out a bullet strong enough to break through steel. Can the gun tank a bullet shot?

[rereboy]

You can achieve a kick strong enough to break a thick wooden board in two. Can you also tank a kick strong enough to break a thick wooden board in two?
A gun can shoot out a bullet strong enough to break through steel. Can the gun tank a bullet shot?

Terrible examples... As for the first one, yes I could if I knew how to take it. How do you think kickboxers fight without dying? As for your second example... Do I even have to adress it? There are so many reasons for why its a bad example I don't even know where to start... First, what created the force and speed of the bullet is the explosion within the gun, the gun merely directs the bullet. Second, if we take the survival of the gun to mean that it remains functional after taking a bullet, then there's a good chance that a gun remains functional after taking a bullet depending on how and where it takes it, it doesn't have to have zero damage to function.

Anyway, besides real "examples" such as those, within the dragon ball world, Ki can be used for defense and for offence. That was proven when Vegeta lowered his Ki so that Krillin could hurt him. Therefore a Ki user can use and amplify his ki for attack and for defense. As a pratical example, we have Goku when he braced himself for Piccolo Jr' ultimate attack and tanked it.

So, if a fighter can achieve a power level of, for example, 25.000 in order to attack, unless he couldn't for some reason achieve that same power level and focus it on defense, I don't see why he would be killed by an attack with a power level of 25.000. There are even various examples of fighters surviving attacks that probably had more power than their own, so surviving an attack equal to their power level doesn't seem that special.

[Draken]

The thing is they concentrate it into one point, ie; their hands, to amplify their ki and release the attack. I don't think they can amplify their entire body to tank an attack.

[rereboy]

The thing is they concentrate it into one point, ie; their hands, to amplify their ki and release the attack. I don't think they can amplify their entire body to tank an attack.

Like I said, as a pratical example we have Goku bracing himself to take Piccolo Jr's ultimate attack in the 23rd tournament. He litteraly amplified his whole defense to take it and thanks to it he survived it with little damage.

Afterwards, when he thought he had won, he was distracted and relaxed and Piccolo Jr's was able to hurt him severely with a weaker attack (mouth blast) that pierced him completely.

[Draken]

The thing is they concentrate it into one point, ie; their hands, to amplify their ki and release the attack. I don't think they can amplify their entire body to tank an attack.

Like I said, as a pratical example we have Goku bracing himself to take Piccolo Jr's ultimate attack in the 23rd tournament. He litteraly amplified his whole defense to take it and thanks to it he survived it with little damage.

Afterwards, when he thought he had won, he was distracted and relaxed and Piccolo Jr's was able to hurt him severely with a weaker attack (mouth blast) that pierced him completely.

But would you be able to amp your entire body to the same degree you can amp a single point? I doubt it. Piccolo's big AoE attack would actually be weaker than if he amp'd it into one spot (Makankosappo) because he's releasing it in a big radius all over, thus a smaller amp. So Goku could have a smaller amp around his entire body to defend it.

[rereboy]

But would you be able to amp your entire body to the same degree you can amp a single point? I doubt it. Piccolo's big AoE attack would actually be weaker than if he amp'd it into one spot (Makankosappo) because he's releasing it in a big radius all over, thus a smaller amp. So Goku could have a smaller amp around his entire body to defend it.

Goku wasn't particularly hurt in specific body areas after Piccolo Jr's attack and his attack was omnidirectional. So the little we have to go on to answer that question seems to imply that a fighter can protect his whole body quite effectively with no significant differences in protection in some areas of the body.

[Draken]

But would you be able to amp your entire body to the same degree you can amp a single point? I doubt it. Piccolo's big AoE attack would actually be weaker than if he amp'd it into one spot (Makankosappo) because he's releasing it in a big radius all over, thus a smaller amp. So Goku could have a smaller amp around his entire body to defend it.

Goku wasn't particularly hurt in specific body areas after Piccolo Jr's attack and his attack was omnidirectional. So the little we have to go on to answer that question seems to imply that a fighter can protect his whole body quite effectively with no significant differences in protection in some areas of the body.

That's what I said... the omnidirectional attack would have a smaller amp, and thus Goku could brace himself and defend by amping up his entire body. However, you can't amplify your entire body as much as you can concentrate and amplify in a single point.

[rereboy]

Whatever you are trying to say now has nothing to do with the point I was making in this discussion.

[Draken]

Whatever you are trying to say now has nothing to do with the point I was making in this discussion.

Your point was that characters can survive their own heavily amplified and concentrated attacks. I and others say they can't.

[rereboy]

Whatever you are trying to say now has nothing to do with the point I was making in this discussion.

Your point was that characters can survive their own heavily amplified and concentrated attacks. I and others say they can't.

And whatever you were trying to say in your latest posts has nothing to do with that. It doesn't invalidate any of my arguments at all.

I provided you with logical arguments based on specific examples from Dragon Ball to support my opinion. Did whatever you were trying to say go agaisnt said arguments and said examples and said opinion? No.

Can a fighter protect himself better in a single spot rather than in his entire body or not? Has the answer to this question any bearing over the fact that if a fighter can reach a certain power level, he should be able to survive an attack of the same power level, given the various examples in Dragon Ball that show us that Ki can be applied to defense as effectivily as to attack (that I mentioned), and the various examples of fighters surviving attacks that probably surpassed even their own power? No, it hasn't. Whatever the answer to that question is, its doesn't change the answer to the question of whether the fighter should be able to survive or not.

And that's why I stated that what you were trying to say had nothing to do with my point.

[Draken]

Whatever you are trying to say now has nothing to do with the point I was making in this discussion.

Your point was that characters can survive their own heavily amplified and concentrated attacks. I and others say they can't.

And whatever you were trying to say in your latest posts has nothing to do with that. It doesn't invalidate any of my arguments at all.

I provided you with logical arguments based on specific examples from Dragon Ball to support my opinion. Did whatever you were trying to say go agaisnt said arguments and said examples and said opinion? No.

Can a fighter protect himself better in a single spot rather than in his entire body or not? Has the answer to this question any bearing over the fact that if a fighter can reach a certain power level, he should be able to survive an attack of the same power level, given the various examples in Dragon Ball that show us that Ki can be applied to defense as effectivily as to attack (that I mentioned), and the various examples of fighters surviving attacks that probably surpassed even their own power? No, it hasn't. Whatever the answer to that question is, its doesn't change the answer to the question of whether the fighter should be able to survive or not.

And that's why I stated that what you were trying to say had nothing to do with my point.

A person can heavily amplify a concentrated ki attack, like what Goku did against Raditz, raising his power level. Are you really expecting us to believe Goku could do the same thing for his entire body? He had to concentrate it to amplify so much, spreading his ki around his body to defend himself would NOT reach the same power level. How does that not have to do with your point? It's stupid for Vegeta to be able to survive his own extremely amplified and concentrated attack, especially since it would A:Engulf his entire body, which he would not be able to amp for defense as much as a guy releasing it from one spot would amp for offense and B:It took so long to charge so unless he had more time to amp his defense, he wouldn't reach such a high level anyways.

I mean what you're saying is person A has a maximum power level of 300 but can amp and concentrate it into one spot to raise it to 500. Person A can then raise his power level in general to 500 to defend... what?

[rereboy]

A person can heavily amplify a concentrated ki attack, like what Goku did against Raditz, raising his power level. Are you really expecting us to believe Goku could do the same thing for his entire body? He had to concentrate it to amplify so much, spreading his ki around his body to defend himself would NOT reach the same power level. How does that not have to do with your point? It's stupid for Vegeta to be able to survive his own extremely amplified and concentrated attack, especially since it would A:Engulf his entire body, which he would not be able to amp for defense as much as a guy releasing it from one spot would amp for offense and B:It took so long to charge so unless he had more time to amp his defense, he wouldn't reach such a high level anyways.

I mean what you're saying is person A has a maximum power level of 300 but can amp and concentrate it into one spot to raise it to 500. Person A can then raise his power level in general to 500 to defend... what?

I don't understand why you think its so hard to believe that Goku could protect his all body by amplifying Ki. Goku's heavily amplified attacks are almost always larger than his entire body and can engulf his opponents completely. Considering that, what's so difficult about concentrating Ki and focus it on the defense of his own entire body...?

In my opinion, yes, he can. Just like he did to protect himself from Piccolo Jr's ultimate attack. Like I've already told you, that's a clear and pratical example, unless you believe that all that Goku did was put his arms in front of his head and amplified Ki had nothing to do with it, even though Goku was still somehow nearly fatally wounded afterwards by a much weaker attack when he wasn't concentrating on defense. The process is basically the same, but the amplified Ki is used on defense instead of on the attack.

However, besides all that, you are completely ignoring all the times that fighters took attacks stronger than themselves and lived. For example, Vegeta took Goku's Kaioken x4 Kamehameha in the face, lived and he didn't even have serious injuries from it. And he did this despite the fact that the attack had proven to be stronger than Vegeta's most powerful attack. According to what you are saying, Vegeta couldn't survive an attack of the same kind of power that he could produce... Yet, he took an even stronger attack right on, didn't die and he wasn't even that badly injured by it.

And, despite all this, you still claim that fighters should die if they were attacked with the same power that they can produce...? I frankly don't see how that opinion is sustainable, given all this. And I still don't see how what you were arguing had any bearing on this answer... Lets imagine that I agreed with you and that I thought that Goku couldn't protect all of his body as well as a single spot. Does that change the fact that Vegeta survived Goku's Kaioken x4 Kamehameha without very serious injuries? Does that change the fact that Goku could tank the ultimate attack of an opponent with pratically the same power as him (Piccolo Jr) simply by concentrating on defense? No. So, how would that change the answer? It wouldn't.

[Draken]

Ultimate attack = omnidirectional, meaning it wasn't amped as much, meaning Goku didn't have to amp his own defenses as much, idk how many times I've said.

[rereboy]

Ultimate attack = omnidirectional, meaning it wasn't amped as much, meaning Goku didn't have to amp his own defenses as much, idk how many times I've said.

The point of that example is to show you that fighters can use their Ki and amplify it to raise their defenses and protect their whole body. Nothing else. You are not disagreeing with this and this is all that matters.

Its pointless to discuss if they can do this better by focusing on a single spot or their entire bodies, or any other sort of little detail about the process itself since there are various examples of fighters surviving (sometimes even without much injuries, like Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga) stronger attacks than themselves that they couldn't have hoped to match either in defense or in attack no matter what they did. The fact that they can increase their defenses by amplyfing Ki just helps us understand how they can do it as well as they do against amplified attacks.

You keep insisting on that irrelevant argument that has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever and you keep ignoring clear arguments that do have a bearing on the discussion, like fighters surviving attacks stronger than themselves.

[Rocketman]

The only interesting tidbit that's not total horsefeathers:

Roshi destroys the Moon at a minimum of 140.
The (real-world) Moon is 100x less massive than the Earth.
The first threat to the Earth comes from Vegeta, the first to be 100x stronger than Roshi.

[Draken]

Ultimate attack = omnidirectional, meaning it wasn't amped as much, meaning Goku didn't have to amp his own defenses as much, idk how many times I've said.

The point of that example is to show you that fighters can use their Ki and amplify it to raise their defenses and protect their whole body. Nothing else. You are not disagreeing with this and this is all that matters.

Its pointless to discuss if they can do this better by focusing on a single spot or their entire bodies, or any other sort of little detail about the process itself since there are various examples of fighters surviving (sometimes even without much injuries, like Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga) stronger attacks than themselves that they couldn't have hoped to match either in defense or in attack no matter what they did. The fact that they can increase their defenses by amplyfing Ki just helps us understand how they can do it as well as they do against amplified attacks.

You keep insisting on that irrelevant argument that has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever and you keep ignoring clear arguments that do have a bearing on the discussion, like fighters surviving attacks stronger than themselves.

Stronger sure. But their strongest single amplified concentrated attack? Nope.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Roshi destroys the Moon at a minimum of 140.

Are you saying that his Kamehameha is at minimum 140? Because Roshi was below 139 at that point.