Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[SoulSurj]

When was Golden Oozaru equated with fusion, in terms of raw power?

There wasn't a direct statement. I calculated their multipliers when I compared the two to Baby Vegeta and found that they were about the same distance from Goku's base forms.

(Buu arc) Base Goku
Ssj 3 Buu Arc Goku= (GT) Base Goku
Ssj 3 (GT) Goku< Ssj Baby Vegeta
Ssj Baby Vegeta<= Super Vegito
Super Vegito> 160,000× (Buu arc) Base Goku
Super Baby 1= 2× Ssj Baby Vegeta
Super Baby 2 (4× Super Baby 1)= GO Goku
Golden Oozaru Goku> 3,200× (GT) Base Goku
GO Baby Vegeta/Ssj 4 Goku= 10× Super Baby 2

[Mireya]

Would you guys say Roshi got stronger in-between the 22nd Budokai and Raditz's arrival?

[AtlasFlame18]

Would you guys say Roshi got stronger in-between the 22nd Budokai and Raditz's arrival?

Most likely but not any significant gains

[BWri]

Would you guys say Roshi got stronger in-between the 22nd Budokai and Raditz's arrival?

Initially, I would think so but only marginally, but with Super's lore thrown in the mix I would think he was much stronger than I initially thought. Everyone had surpassed him by the 23rd, but now I think his full power might have only been a touch behind Krillin's. He and Yamcha might have been closer than we all thought at full power. I know at rest they were 139 and 177 respectively.

Maybe I'm overestimating, but Super's scaling makes you rethink some stuff. I'm thinking by the time of Vegeta and Nappa's arrival that Roshi could've reached a resting power of 600.

[AtlasFlame18]

Would you guys say Roshi got stronger in-between the 22nd Budokai and Raditz's arrival?

Initially, I would think so but only marginally, but with Super's lore thrown in the mix I would think he was much stronger than I initially thought. Everyone had surpassed him by the 23rd, but now I think his full power might have only been a touch behind Krillin's. He and Yamcha might have been closer than we all thought at full power. I know at rest they were 139 and 177 respectively.

Maybe I'm overestimating, but Super's scaling makes you rethink some stuff. I'm thinking by the time of Vegeta and Nappa's arrival that Roshi could've reached a resting power of 600.

I think this logic could work because it wouldn't break the power scale that previously existed. Roshi can still make great increases in power but it's still far too low to matter in the grand scheme of things until the Tournament of Power where he finally caught up.

[In Brightest Day]

How strong do you think Nam, King Chappa and Bora were at the beginning of Z, assuming they each continued training throughout that entire time period? How would they perform at the 22nd or 23rd tournaments? Any power level numbers welcome.

[BWri]

How strong do you think Nam, King Chappa and Bora were at the beginning of Z, assuming they each continued training throughout that entire time period? How would they perform at the 22nd or 23rd tournaments? Any power level numbers welcome.

Good question! I think Nam and King Chappa would have trained hard for the tournament. I'm not sure if Bora would have done more than his usual duties as a protector.

Nam and Chappa never made it past the qualifiers during the 22nd. I don't think Bora would have either given the talent of the turtle and crane schools.

As far as Z goes. Chappa may have gotten to a level where he could challenge the Goku he fought during the 22nd TB qualifiers. He certainly thought he'd improved enough to challenge an even stronger Goku in the 23rd but stood even less of a chance this time. It's possible he got stronger than Tambourine but I'm not sure either way. He was always stronger than Nam though, IMO. Roshi assumed Chappa would give Goku some trouble. So equal to or less than Goku/Tien from the 22nd.

Nam on the other hand, would be weaker than Chappa, so by the time Z rolls around I'd put Nam at around Yamcha's level from the 22nd TB. I think that's big for him but in 8 years, I can see him managing it.

I don't think Bora got much stronger but I can see him increasing his strength by 50% by the start of Z in the 9 or so years since Tao killed him.

BONUS:
By the time Super rolls around, I think Chappa might have reached a level close to Goku and Piccolo from the 23rd TB

For Nam, I think he wouldn't have grown nearly as much as Chappa. He might have maxxed out at that 22nd TB Yamcha level or grown ever so slightly stronger.

As for Bora, I don't think he'd grow that much from what I stated before, unless he trains with Korin.

[ZombieVito]

Would you guys say Roshi got stronger in-between the 22nd Budokai and Raditz's arrival?

I don't think so. I believe where he begins to train again is after the Cell arc. Just look how mad he is when Tenshinhan goes to help Piccolo against Cell.

That hopelessness gives him the nudge to start training again.

[Noah]

How about Roshi on RoF to ToP? It almost makes puke... but did was he at least on Nappa to Vegeta (Saiyan arc) level on those periods?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Battle Powers

Starting from Part 1

<SNIP>

I've tried to leave it as small and readable as possible. Comment!

I like these, they look a lot like my own levels. I don't have Piccolo really at under half his power vs Goku, but it works here in your list.

Would you guys say Roshi got stronger in-between the 22nd Budokai and Raditz's arrival?

Probably. There's no way Yamcha was closer to 22nd Budokai levels than he is to BoZ Tenshinhan. This is also supported by Super having Roshi keeping himself relevant.

How strong do you think Nam, King Chappa and Bora were at the beginning of Z, assuming they each continued training throughout that entire time period? How would they perform at the 22nd or 23rd tournaments? Any power level numbers welcome.

I think by the 23rd Budokai King Chappa was already capable of beating everyone from the 22nd Budokai. He was confident in beating Goku this time around. Granted he might only have surpassed the level Goku used to beat him, but I like to give Chappa the benefit of the doubt. I have him as strong as Goku was after the 22nd Budokai and his Zenkai from Tambourine.

5 years later I'd say he made minimal progress since he seems to have given up the Budokais (By the time of the 24th no super humans were participating since Mr. Satan was the winner), so he's Drum level at most.

Namu is a bit more complicated. He came back for the 22nd Budokai in anime filler, but it was mostly just to see the others. He's still a martial artist though and ought to have kept on training. I think he's comparable to Goku before he trained with Karin.

Bora doesn't seem to be much of a training guy so I don't think he's gotten much stronger if at all. I have him stronger than 21st Budokai Namu since him throwing Yajirobe up is far more impressive than Namu's leaps. He's not much stronger though since he's clearly weaker than Goku was when they met.

[ZombieVito]

How about Roshi on RoF to ToP? It almost makes puke... but did was he at least on Nappa to Vegeta (Saiyan arc) level on those periods?

The series never cared for consistent power growth. Gohan went from base tier to Blue tier in less than 2 days in the anime. In the manga he gets a similar boost in 33 minutes.

I rather have this than Roshi being a cheerleader like Yamcha or Chaoz became.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Here's a little experiment of mine. What if the power levels at the start of the series are as low as decimals, and the Farmer with a Shotgun is just absurdly strong? Surprisingly, I just had to take my latest non scouter power levels list and chop it by 1,000x to make everything fit. There was an earlier attempt where I took Goku and Piccolo's BoZ powers and tried to work backwards, but it didn't really work.

Spoiler:

Pilaf Saga

Goku: 0.050
~ Hungry: 0.045
~ Oozaru: 0.500
~ Tail cut: 0.040

Bulma: 0.04

Bear Bandit: 0.025

Master Roshi: 0.108
~ Full power: 0.360
~ Full power Kamehameha: 0.450

Oolong: 0.03

Puar: 0.02

Yamcha: 0.045
~ Roga Fufuken: 0.048

Gyumao: 0.080

Chi-Chi: 0.040

Rabbit Goons: 0.005
Boss Rabbit: 0.010

Pilaf: 0.03
Shu: 0.04
Mai: 0.05

Kuririn: 0.030

Lunch: 0.004
~ SSJ: 0.020

21st Tenkaichi Budokai

Goku: 0.120
~ Tail regrown: 0.150
~ Kamehameha: 0.180
~ Oozaru: 1.500

Kuririn: 0.075
~ Full power: 0.100

Yamcha: 0.060
~ Roga Fufuken: 0.064

Orinji Temple Bullies: 0.035~0.045

Bacterian: 0.045

Ranfan: 0.0675

Giran: 0.090

Namu: 0.135

Jackie Chun: 0.080
~ Serious vs Kuririn: 0.108
~ Fake full power: 0.144
~ Kamehameha: 0.180
~ Full power: 0.360
~ Full power Kamehameha: 0.450

Red Ribbon Army

Goku: 0.135
~ Full power: 0.165
~ Kamehameha: 0.198
~ Post Muscle Tower: 0.180
~ Kamehameha: 0.225
~ Post Karin's training: 0.540

Col. Silver: 0.045

Sergeant Metallic: 0.135

Sergeant Major Murasaki: 0.090

Android 8: 0.400

Buyon: 0.125

General White: 0.007

Kuririn: 0.090

Pirate Robot: 0.120

General Blue: 0.144

Bora: 0.140

Tao Pai Pai: 0.300
~ Full power: 0.450
~ Dodonpa: 0.5625

Commander Black: 0.240
~ Battle Jacket: 0.480

Yamcha: 0.060

Dracula Man: 0.040

Invisible Man: 0.050

Mummy Man: 0.180

Akkuman: 0.360

Grandpa Gohan: 0.540

22nd Tenkaichi Budokai

King Chappa: 0.600

Chaozu: 0.700
~ Dodonpa: 0.875

Yamcha: 0.720
~ Shin Roga Fufuken: 0.810
~ Kamehameha: 0.900

Kuririn: 0.750

Master Tsuru: 1.050

Jackie Chun: 0.960
~ Shirtless: 1.200
~ Unseen full power: 1.440

Tenshinhan: 0.720
~ Countering the RFF: 0.840
~ Knocking Yamcha: 0.960
~ Serious vs Jackie: 1.200
~ Initial vs Goku: 1.750
~ Full power: 1.750
~ Kikoho: 3.500

Goku: 0.675
~ Vs Kuririn: 0.750
~ More effort: 0.825
~ Full match level: 1.500
~ Battle level: 2.250

Piccolo Daimao

Young Roshi: 2.5
Young Tsuru: 2.5
Master Mutaito: 2.75

Goku: 3
~ Kamehameha: 3.75
~ Post Choushinsui: 33.75
~ Full power: 75
~ Kamehameha: 93.75
~ Crippled: 7.5

Yajirobe: 2.7
~ Post tower climb: 3.375
~ 2nd tower climb: 3.75

Tenshinhan: 2.1

Master Roshi: 1.44

Chaozu: 0.7

King Castle Guard: 10

Cymbal: 0.6

Tambourine: 1.8

Cymbal: 3.6

Piccolo Daimao: 2.88
~ 40%: 9
~ Unseen 100%: 22.5
~ Young: 30
~ Full power: 37.5
~ Bakurikimaha: 56.25

Mr. Popo: 150
Kami-Sama: 300

23rd Budokai

King Chappa: 2.4

Goku: 100
~ Unweighted: 150
~ Warming up: 300
~ Full power: 600
~ Super Kamehameha: 910
~ Fatigued: 400

Tenshinhan: 75
~ Full speed: 100

Kuririn: 67.5
~ Kamehameha: 84.375

Yamcha: 62.5
~ Sokidan: 78.125

Chi-Chi: 56.25

Chaozu: 21

Yajirobe: 22.5

Tao Pai Pai: 50
~ Super Dodonpa: 75

Kami-Sama: 300
~ Shen's body: 90
~ Limits of Shen's body: 270

Piccolo Jr: 75
~ Serious vs Kuririn: 90
~ Vs Shen: 300
~ Full power: 600
~ Bakurikimaha: 880
~ Chou Bakuretsumaha: 1,000
~ Fatigued: 400

Beginning of DBZ

Farmer with Shotgun: 5

Goku: 334
~ Unweighted: 416
~ Full power: 693
~ Kamehameha: 924

Piccolo: 322
~ Unweighted: 408
~ Full power: 689
~ Makkankosappo: 1,330

Kami-Sama: 300
Mr. Popo (Post training Goku): 300

Tenshinhan: 250
Kuririn: 206
Yamcha: 177
Yajirobe: 153
Chaozu: 148
Master Roshi: 139

Turns out the Farmer can beat everyone at the 22nd Budokai with ease. What a beast.

[Koitsukai]

We Need To Talk About Z Broly.

His base form, how strong is he in that state? he was tanking blows from base Goku like a boss, although bleeding a bit from it. I believe I'm talking about that ikari-like hairdue, not his relaxed black-haired base form.

His regular SS form was tanking SS Goku's blows IIRC, and in the sequel he wasn't able to put down base Gohan. Anyway, his SS seemed fucking strong in the original movie.

So how strong are those forms?
who can he take from Z in those forms?

How would the movie turned out if there was no LSS form?

[Kaboom]

I like to think that Z Movie 8 takes place in a little AU where Vegeta or Trunks managed to defeat Cell before he became perfect, and so with the threat having passed, Goku and Gohan left the Room of Spirit and Time sooner than otherwise. Piccolo probably still took a turn in there anyway just to avoid being left so far behind.

So Goku is the strongest of the Super Saiyans, but not by a huge amount like he was in the main story. Broli at SS1 is equivalent to Perfect Cell when he first appeared and beat up Vegeta, and is also already stronger than Goku by at least a little bit. When he goes Legendary, it's like his own even-beefier version of Grade 3 or SS2, and a little more than doubles his power.

So if Broli had remained at just SS1, then the gang may have been able to win by ganging up on him, but at LSS he's only beatable by the power-pooling strategy that happened in the movie.

My numbers for demonstration:

Spoiler:

Vegeta: 13,000,000 / SS1: 650,000,000 / Grade 2: 1,000,000,000
Trunks: 12,000,000 / SS1: 600,000,000 / Grade 2: 900,000,000
Piccolo: 1,200,000,000

Son Gohan: 24,000,000 / SS1: 1,200,000,000
Son Goku: 30,000,000 / SS1 – 1,500,000,000
The Power of FRIENDSHIP: 6,000,000,000

Broli: 40,000,000 / SS1: 2,000,000,000 / "Legendary" SS: 4,600,000,000

[GreatSaiyaman123]

We Need To Talk About Z Broly.

His base form, how strong is he in that state? he was tanking blows from base Goku like a boss, although bleeding a bit from it. I believe I'm talking about that ikari-like hairdue, not his relaxed black-haired base form.

His regular SS form was tanking SS Goku's blows IIRC, and in the sequel he wasn't able to put down base Gohan. Anyway, his SS seemed fucking strong in the original movie.

So how strong are those forms?
who can he take from Z in those forms?

How would the movie turned out if there was no LSS form?

I think the movie is supposed to happen around the time of the Cell Games. The way I see it, the producers always regard the movies as canon to the anime and try to fit them in the timeline, most of the time after the current arc ends. The thing is, they don't always know how the saga ends... thus why Goku is alive here (and why most movies don't fit in the timeline). Daizenshuu 6 also fits this place in the 10 days wait, which is a close enough period.

So I think everyone is on their Cell Games levels here. Vegeta and Trunks are shown to be using SSJ Grade 2 in the anime version of the Cell Games, so I don't think that's an issue here.

So, SSJ Broly tanked Super Vegeta's kick to the head just like Cell did, surprising even Goku. Only this is a stronger Vegeta. I think a FP Cell level is required to do that. Add LSSJ on top of that, and Broly is stronger than Boo Saga SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta.

Some numbers:

Spoiler:

Goku: 1,800
~ SSJ: 90,000

Vegeta: 1,200
~ SSJ: 60,000
~ Grade 2: 75,000

Trunks: 1,200
~ SSJ: 60,000
~ Grade 2: 75,000

Gohan: 2,400
~ SSJ (Yuuki loss?): 60,000

Piccolo: 40,000

Broly: 3,750
~ SSJ (Tanking Vegeta): 150,000
~ SSJ (Full power): 187,500
~ LSSJ: 375,000

Perfect Cell: 180,000
SSJ2 Gohan/Super Perfect Cell: 270,000
SSJ2 Goku (Boo Saga): 300,000
Mr. Boo: 400,000

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Do we underestimate Mecha Freeza? Most people place him in the 150-160mil range since he was confident on fighting Goku. But it’s been a year since their last fight. What if Freeza expected Goku to have gotten stronger? He acknowledged back on Namek that Saiyans are always getting stronger, after all.

That would explain why Freeza sounds a bit uncertain. He can definitely beat Goku as he was back on Namek, but what about now?

[ZombieVito]

Do we underestimate Mecha Freeza? Most people place him in the 150-160mil range since he was confident on fighting Goku. But it’s been a year since their last fight. What if Freeza expected Goku to have gotten stronger? He acknowledged back on Namek that Saiyans are always getting stronger, after all.

That would explain why Freeza sounds a bit uncertain. He can definitely beat Goku as he was back on Namek, but what about now?

People have him that high? I think I have him at 130 million, 135 max.

We know from Super that Goku spent almost the entire time on Yadart learning IT so he shouldn't be that much stronger than on Namek.

[DanielSSJ]

People have him that high? I think I have him at 130 million, 135 max.

We know from Super that Goku spent almost the entire time on Yadart learning IT so he shouldn't be that much stronger than on Namek.

Yeah, but doesn't learning Shunkan Ido involve lots of Spirit Control training? Just meditating on a spike for a few days amped up Vegeta's power so that he was nearly knocked over by the recoil of a basic ki blast. If Goku was doing stuff like that for the better part of a year, it's not hard to imagine that he got waaaaaay stronger.

[ZombieVito]

People have him that high? I think I have him at 130 million, 135 max.

We know from Super that Goku spent almost the entire time on Yadart learning IT so he shouldn't be that much stronger than on Namek.

Yeah, but doesn't learning Shunkan Ido involve lots of Spirit Control training? Just meditating on a spike for a few days amped up Vegeta's power so that he was nearly knocked over by the recoil of a basic ki blast. If Goku was doing stuff like that for the better part of a year, it's not hard to imagine that he got waaaaaay stronger.

Vegeta never trained his spirit so the gains were big. Goku already did with Kaio.

[DanielSSJ]

Vegeta never trained his spirit so the gains were big. Goku already did with Kaio.

Even if his spirit wasn't as unpolished as Vegeta's, if it took him most of a year to master Shunkan Ido, there was definitely plenty of room for improvement. I'm not saying he doubled or tripled his strength or anything like that, but a 20 increase wouldn't be totally out of the question.