Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[dbgtFO]

On Nappa’s power itself, I’ve just come to accept it as a plothole. The change in his perfomance is too drastic to be a mere shouki issue, he couldn’t even see suppressed Goku. The big differences in numbers also make it hard to swallow: He struggled with 2800 and got clowned by 5000, but he keeps 8000 on edge?

I think it's a case of Toriyama changing his power as the plot saw fit.
He once mentioned in an interview that he would usually have an idea of a character's strength beforehand, but that could change depending on what the story needed.
Nappa seems to be the prime example of this and for many years now, I have believed he needed to ibtroduce Kaioken, so Nappa got buffed up to Goku's level to justify it.

[Noah]

Do you guys think that even considering the huge power gap between SSJ3 Goku and Super Gotenks 3, he could defeat the kids with strategy, tactics, and obviously because he was a warrior with much more combat experience?

[DanielSSJ]

Do you guys think that even considering the huge power gap between SSJ3 Goku and Super Gotenks 3, he could defeat the kids with strategy, tactics, and obviously because he was a warrior with much more combat experience?

Depends on exactly how big you think the gap is between them.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Do you guys think that even considering the huge power gap between SSJ3 Goku and Super Gotenks 3, he could defeat the kids with strategy, tactics, and obviously because he was a warrior with much more combat experience?

Only in a sparring or tournament match, and only because Gotenks never fight seriously. Goku thought he stood no chance against Super Boo in a life or death fight, so the starts would have to align for him to beat Gotenks.

[QuakingStar]

Do you guys think that even considering the huge power gap between SSJ3 Goku and Super Gotenks 3, he could defeat the kids with strategy, tactics, and obviously because he was a warrior with much more combat experience?

Only in a sparring or tournament match, and only because Gotenks never fight seriously. Goku thought he stood no chance against Super Boo in a life or death fight, so the starts would have to align for him to beat Gotenks.

There people who think Goku was just lying and that he could beat Super Buu. I've seen the comments and its brain rot for sure.

[DanielSSJ]

There people who think Goku was just lying and that he could beat Super Buu. I've seen the comments and its brain rot for sure.

More often, I see people say that when Goku said they'd get killed if they went out "like this", he was talking about how they were shrunken down when they were absorbed, and that a regular-sized SS3 Goku could beat Super Boo. Not impossible, but it seems far more likely Goku just meant they'd lose un-fused, since that's what they were talking about (and them being weaker because they're smaller wouldn't be addressed for another chapter anyways).

[GreatSaiyaman123]

There people who think Goku was just lying and that he could beat Super Buu. I've seen the comments and its brain rot for sure.

Nowadays the most common interpretation is that Goku just got retconned/plot boosted into being stronger than Gohan after leaving Super Boo's body somehow. Sounds like people just trying to apply that awful Toei/DBS power scaling logic into the manga.

But to be fair, Kid Boo really is sold as this ultimate threat. Specially in the new material. The original manga is a bit ambiguous with the "He's the most troublesome Boo", but everything post Boo Saga tends to frame Goku vs Kid Boo as the battle of the strongest.

[DanielSSJ]

Nowadays the most common interpretation is that Goku just got retconned/plot boosted into being stronger than Gohan after leaving Super Boo's body somehow. Sounds like people just trying to apply that awful Toei/DBS power scaling logic into the manga.

But to be fair, Kid Boo really is sold as this ultimate threat. Specially in the new material. The original manga is a bit ambiguous with the "He's the most troublesome Boo", but everything post Boo Saga tends to frame Goku vs Kid Boo as the battle of the strongest.

I dunno about anyone else, but I'm kinda comfortable saying the new material is wrong and leaving it at that. The original manga still exists (mostly) unaltered, and I can still interpret it just on its own merits. Toriyama never left me any reason to think that Goku got stronger at any point within the chapters of the Boo arc, so him and Pure Boo being weaker than Gohan and Gotenks still makes the most sense to me.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I dunno about anyone else, but I'm kinda comfortable saying the new material is wrong and leaving it at that. The original manga still exists (mostly) unaltered, and I can still interpret it just on its own merits. Toriyama never left me any reason to think that Goku got stronger at any point within the chapters of the Boo arc, so him and Pure Boo being weaker than Gohan and Gotenks still makes the most sense to me.

The one thing in the Boo Saga that troubles is how they needed everyone's energy for the Genki Dama. Shouldn't Gohan and co. be enough?

[Koitsukai]

I dunno about anyone else, but I'm kinda comfortable saying the new material is wrong and leaving it at that. The original manga still exists (mostly) unaltered, and I can still interpret it just on its own merits. Toriyama never left me any reason to think that Goku got stronger at any point within the chapters of the Boo arc, so him and Pure Boo being weaker than Gohan and Gotenks still makes the most sense to me.

The one thing in the Boo Saga that troubles is how they needed everyone's energy for the Genki Dama. Shouldn't Gohan and co. be enough?

There were only two possibilities:

A) you contribute your regular life force, what keeps you alive, and every living being has the same amount to offer, no matter how strong they are.
B) your contribution depends on how strong you are.

Up until that point, we could believe either of those but after that arc, the answer is A because of what you just pointed out.
I would even go as far as saying that the Namek genkidama also worked that way. It was quite big after the remaining Z-senshi gave their energy, but after it was completed with the lifeforce of plants and other beings, it was huge.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

There were only two possibilities:

A) you contribute your regular life force, what keeps you alive, and every living being has the same amount to offer, no matter how strong they are.
B) your contribution depends on how strong you are.

Up until that point, we could believe either of those but after that arc, the answer is A because of what you just pointed out.
I would even go as far as saying that the Namek genkidama also worked that way. It was quite big after the remaining Z-senshi gave their energy, but after it was completed with the lifeforce of plants and other beings, it was huge.

Or C) Plot.

Which isn't a very satisfying answer, but looking at how Toei treats the Genki Dama (A few dozen people make a Genki Dama to kill Zamasu. Even if Zamasu was weakened, that's still a SSJB+ power), it could be the case.

In the scope of the manga, "A" makes the most sense because Goten and Trunks didn't fuse/transform to give their energies.

[DanielSSJ]

The one thing in the Boo Saga that troubles is how they needed everyone's energy for the Genki Dama. Shouldn't Gohan and co. be enough?

My go-to answer has always been that the Genki Dama needed to be extra strong to account for Boo being able to regenerate from next to nothing, but there's probably an element of it that it only takes a part of your ki and not the whole thing. That said, I have gotten more comfortable with the idea that Pure Boo at least might be that crazy strong, and that he just never went all out against Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

[QuakingStar]

The one thing in the Boo Saga that troubles is how they needed everyone's energy for the Genki Dama. Shouldn't Gohan and co. be enough?

My go-to answer has always been that the Genki Dama needed to be extra strong to account for Boo being able to regenerate from next to nothing, but there's probably an element of it that it only takes a part of your ki and not the whole thing. That said, I have gotten more comfortable with the idea that Pure Boo at least might be that crazy strong, and that he just never went all out against Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

He goes all out the moment he is fighting back the Spirit Bomb as hard as he can, his veins pop out and all. But stronger than Super Buu? Extremely doubtful. Gohan stopped training immediately following Buu's defeat so Goku could have caught up to and surpassed him by that point. He was also beaten up and exhausted by the time he tried the Spirit Bomb and then got healed which could have given him a Zenkai. But during the Kid Buu fight and before that Ultimate Gohan is the strongest unfused character at that time for sure.