Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Well, if Goku couldn’t finish off Moro on his own, I guess Moro is arguably better than Goku? They were equally matched in combat prowess, but Moro’s magic required a helping hand.

[Koitsukai]

So the idea is that UI Moro is on equal footing with UI Goku. Which I agree with.

I had to ask since some people say that Moro is undeniably stronger since Merus + weakened 7-Moro-3 >> MUI Goku

Or I've seen the debate that angelic Moro cannot defeat Goku, but Planet Moro is actually stronger? Anyway Planet Moro is a can of worms on his own, easily contending with Kefla imo

Thanks for the opinions though! I kinda wish we saw a bit more of UI Moro or 'Morus' in the manga. I do question Blue Fusion being superior though. I guess it is up to the individual on whether Blue Fusion is actually above MUI.

Well, "undeniably" is not possible based on how he never stomped Goku, in those moments before his body failed on him, he only caught Goku by surprise once and with no repercussions. Goku didn't believe Moro had any advantage at all, and even taunted him. I'd say any magical edge was cancelled out by Goku's skills and mindset (which is key for UI).

I mean, before any of them got UI, Moro was way stronger than Goku, and when Moro got UI, that previous gap should've come back, but it didn't, they were on even grounds, he only managed to caught up to Goku. Seems UI doesn't follow typical boosts, and Goku's advanced control of the technique let him contend with Moro's UI and his magic. Even as a planet, he couldn't get pass Goku's block and relied on absorbing genki (including Goku's) to finally get the edge.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Sorry for being late for the show but I returned to the forum after a long while to get some opinions. So if you got a post where this has been asked for before please lead me to it!

Angelic Moro. The one confident in taking on MUI Goku. And just cause I love scales:

MUI Goku (current) is a 100. Then add as many as you want for reference like Jiren, ToP MUI, Broly etc. What I'm here for is Moro. How do you think he would compare to non-canon entities like Godslayer Hearts, Dark King Mechikaboola and ofc canon beings like a Moro arc Gogeta?Vegito. Would they need Kaio Ken introduced in the main series to defeat Moro in this form, or was the training Goku and Vegeta underwent enough?

Moro says he’s equal to Goku now with Merus’ abilities and they fight evenly. Earth Moro is only a thing so Moro can control his power. Whatever power he absorbed was very small.

Earlier, Moro said he was stronger than the gods and had a bit of an upperhand over UI Omen Goku. I like to think Goku’s UI Omen rivals his ToP MUI now, so Moro is slightly above Jiren and most Hakaishins.

Beerus is unknown as of now. The guy probably isn’t getting surpassed until the series ends, so he, Broly, Quitela and the fusions are just way higher than 100.

Earth Moro: 100.1
MUI Goku/Merus/Moro (Merus): 100
Moro: 54
UI Omen Goku: 50
MUI Goku (ToP): 50
Jiren: 48
Belmond: 40

[Miracles]

When 7-3 copies a person, the techs and moves are equally powerful. This also goes for physical attacks. So Moro copied Merus completely. Moro was using Merus full power since it's "no different" as if Merus used it. UI Goku was stated to be equal with that ability. It's a fact, UI Goku is just as strong as Merus in battle power.

[BagetaSama]

Earth Moro: 100.1
MUI Goku/Merus/Moro (Merus): 100
Moro: 54
UI Omen Goku: 50
MUI Goku (ToP): 50
Jiren: 48
Belmond: 40

I mean, wasn't suppressed Moro arc UI Omen Goku implied to be on ToP UI's level?

[Yuji]

When 7-3 copies a person, the techs and moves are equally powerful. This also goes for physical attacks. So Moro copied Merus completely. Moro was using Merus full power and UI Goku was stated to be equal with that ability. It's a fact, UI Goku is just as strong as Merus in battle power.

I think it's debatable. Moro implies he only really copied Ultra Instinct and not much else. Not to mention Goku himself seems doubtful he could pull off the same stunt Merus did when Whis explains what he had to do.

[Miracles]

When 7-3 copies a person, the techs and moves are equally powerful. This also goes for physical attacks. So Moro copied Merus completely. Moro was using Merus full power and UI Goku was stated to be equal with that ability. It's a fact, UI Goku is just as strong as Merus in battle power.

I think it's debatable. Moro implies he only really copied Ultra Instinct and not much else. Not to mention Goku himself seems doubtful he could pull off the same stunt Merus did when Whis explains what he had to do.

It's really not debatable. Especially when the texts tells us, 7-3 copying a person; it's just like the individual is fighting a mirror. Strength and all.

[Grand Marshal 1]

It does beg the question on 1 thing though. Moro grabbed Merus before he used any portion of his angelic powers (and we know angels, even trainees, are beasts), which doesnt contradict with the fact that anyone can utilize Ultra Instinct if they want to (and train for it).

So, what if the powers he copied was those of a 'non-powered up' Merus, but given how 7-3's copying ability works, all that angelic potential started bursting out, prompting Moro to fuse with the planet? For the sake of the argument of course.

Spoiler:

So I suppose we gotta see if Merus retain's total control over Ultra Instinct after his revival.

[Miracles]

Actually, In the second battle against Moro's minions, after the Z fighters trained for two months. 7-3 grabbed the stronger Gohan and Piccolo. It was then stated "any training" they did was "totally worthless" now. This means he copies everything one fully has. Whatever strength they gained belongs to 7-3.

[ZombieVito]

Yup. 73 copies battle power along with techniques.

This also confirms 17 is stronger than the Moro that was on Namek.

[shadd21]

Is Goku's usage of UI superior to Roshi's due to god ki?

[Thani]

Is Goku's usage of UI superior to Roshi's due to god ki?

Well, it is by default since he's actually using UI. What Roshi has is essentially a very accurate facsimile, but not quite the real thing.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I mean, wasn't suppressed Moro arc UI Omen Goku implied to be on ToP UI's level?

If he was, I missed that part. When was that said?

[Grand Marshal 1]

I mean, wasn't suppressed Moro arc UI Omen Goku implied to be on ToP UI's level?

If he was, I missed that part. When was that said?

Nowhere. It has been assumed time and time again. There is a clear increase in power yes, current MUI is above ToP's MUI both in terms of strength/speed and ability to use/maintain.

But nothing really hints at Omen Goku being MUI ToP level. Even after all his training, no one can be used as a correct measuring stick and especially not Piccolo who can't identify whether there is a difference or not (iirc he said something about it, but he was then debunked by himself by saying that he can't rly feel Goku's power in Omen).

The only way to look at it is via how Vegeta performed. We know he is stronger than in Namek and it's pretty evident that in Namek his power was relative to the ToP. Therefore, if we maintain a 'lowball' in this analysis:

MUI ToP > Prime Moro >= 'power stressed Omen' > Spirit Control Blue Evo > normal Omen > ToP Omen > Blue Evo ToP

Something that would make sense, because just casually going beyond the level of power which impressed GoDs in the previous arc with an imprefect version of it, would basically take away from the meaning this form already represents. Perfect combat.

Now 7-Moro-3 would probably have a good chance against Jiren in the ToP and his magic would definitely be an issue for ToP MUI Goku, but I still don't believe he reached that level. Which is why him attaining UI later via Merus seemed like an amazing boost, pitting him against the power which dwarved him.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I mean, wasn't suppressed Moro arc UI Omen Goku implied to be on ToP UI's level?

If he was, I missed that part. When was that said?

Some folks made that claim on the basis that Ultra Instinct Omen Goku this time around was said to be stronger than ever with a few hyperbole statements to support the notion he surpassed the limits of the completed Ultra Instinct from before.

I've always taken it as being vaguely stronger than before, but not enough to actually leapfrog its successive form upgrade entirely; UI Omen from before is likely still competitive with UI Omen now, like SSB or SS1-3, etc., at least for me personally.

[Yuji]

When 7-3 copies a person, the techs and moves are equally powerful. This also goes for physical attacks. So Moro copied Merus completely. Moro was using Merus full power and UI Goku was stated to be equal with that ability. It's a fact, UI Goku is just as strong as Merus in battle power.

I think it's debatable. Moro implies he only really copied Ultra Instinct and not much else. Not to mention Goku himself seems doubtful he could pull off the same stunt Merus did when Whis explains what he had to do.

It's really not debatable. Especially when the texts tells us, 7-3 copying a person; it's just like the individual is fighting a mirror. Strength and all.

It's up for debate because OG-73 using Moro's backup was easily defeated by #17 and #18. If he had access to Moro's physical prowess on top of his magic, then he wouldn't lose, unless you believe #17 and #18 are stronger than spirit fission Vegeta and Sign Goku (or that OG-73 had an outdated backup, but why wouldn't Moro update it?). When it comes to Moro and Merus it seems like he only copied their abilities instead of their full physical strength. When speaking of Merus, Moro only mentions Ultra Instinct and nothing else.

[Miracles]

I think it's debatable. Moro implies he only really copied Ultra Instinct and not much else. Not to mention Goku himself seems doubtful he could pull off the same stunt Merus did when Whis explains what he had to do.

It's really not debatable. Especially when the texts tells us, 7-3 copying a person; it's just like the individual is fighting a mirror. Strength and all.

It's up for debate because OG-73 using Moro's backup was easily defeated by #17 and #18. If he had access to Moro's physical prowess on top of his magic, then he wouldn't lose, unless you believe #17 and #18 are stronger than spirit fission Vegeta and Sign Goku (or that OG-73 had an outdated backup, but why wouldn't Moro update it?). When it comes to Moro and Merus it seems like he only copied their abilities instead of their full physical strength.

The story blatantly states that Moro absorbed Merus's power. Not just his ability. This is the reason why Moro's body was breaking down due to the "angel power" spilling over his limit. Moro also stated that his body "became tougher to compensate on it's own." Meaning he also got more durability after absorbing Merus power. Moro also was somehow able to override 7-3's time limit of absorption and was able to keep copied powers forever. It's not really debatable if you look at the whole scope of the story.

[Koitsukai]

Now 7-Moro-3 would probably have a good chance against Jiren in the ToP and his magic would definitely be an issue for ToP MUI Goku, but I still don't believe he reached that level. Which is why him attaining UI later via Merus seemed like an amazing boost, pitting him against the power which dwarved him.

Goku considers Moro73 to be the toughest he's ever met, so Jiren should already be left behind beyond reasonable doubt.

I agree about UI and Sign. Perfect combat shouldn't be surpassed by non-perfect combat, specially when the form is NOT based on strength. I mean, it could happen if you put BoG UI next to ToP Sign, back then Goku was nowhere near the level he had by the time the ToP took place, so a non-perfect 95 level character could be above a perfect 60 level character. But from the ToP to the Moro arc we are talking about two relatively close power levels.

Also, this arc -and now that it ended we can safely say it- proved that UI is in a whole other league from Sign, it had Goku not being able to touch Moro73 to breaking his wrist just by flexing. Meaning the leap Goku took from Sign to UI during the ToP is too big for GP arc Sign to close, so a perfect 90 should be above a non-perfect 95 (numbers came out of my ass, yes)
I was expecting some sort of explanation from Whis, like "now that you have it under your belt and can use it at will, it makes you much stronger than it did during the ToP", but I guess Goku's initial UI -before the toll- really took him to the next level.

[Yuji]

It's really not debatable. Especially when the texts tells us, 7-3 copying a person; it's just like the individual is fighting a mirror. Strength and all.

It's up for debate because OG-73 using Moro's backup was easily defeated by #17 and #18. If he had access to Moro's physical prowess on top of his magic, then he wouldn't lose, unless you believe #17 and #18 are stronger than spirit fission Vegeta and Sign Goku (or that OG-73 had an outdated backup, but why wouldn't Moro update it?). When it comes to Moro and Merus it seems like he only copied their abilities instead of their full physical strength.

The story blatantly states that Moro absorbed Merus's power. Not just his ability. This is the reason why Moro's body was breaking down due to the "angel power" spilling over his limit. Moro also stated that his body "became tougher to compensate on it's own." Meaning he got more durability after absorbing Merus power. Moro also was somehow able to override 7-3's time limit of absorption and was able to keep copied powers forever. It's not really debatable if you look at the whole scope of the story.

Those are all products of Ultra Instinct. Whis describes that Ultra Instinct will toughen the body on its own, and when Goku tells Moro to abandon Merus' power, he specifically says that he can only handle that power because he trained his body; he's referring to Ultra Instinct. Moro as well states that Goku and him are evenly matched because they both possess Ultra Instinct. The fight hinges thematically on Moro possessing ultra instinct and nothing else, he doesn't have any other of Merus' abilities. Not to mention that Moro only touched Merus' neck before he even activated his angelic powers: Merus only activates his power when the ring appears around his neck (that's when he was erased, and when Whis intervened back when he was sparring with Goku, so it is what signifies the usage of his full angelic strength).

And once more, there is precedent if you look at 73's usage of Moro's backup.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Now 7-Moro-3 would probably have a good chance against Jiren in the ToP and his magic would definitely be an issue for ToP MUI Goku, but I still don't believe he reached that level. Which is why him attaining UI later via Merus seemed like an amazing boost, pitting him against the power which dwarved him.

Goku considers Moro73 to be the toughest he's ever met, so Jiren should already be left behind beyond reasonable doubt.

I agree about UI and Sign. Perfect combat shouldn't be surpassed by non-perfect combat, specially when the form is NOT based on strength. I mean, it could happen if you put BoG UI next to ToP Sign, back then Goku was nowhere near the level he had by the time the ToP took place, so a non-perfect 95 level character could be above a perfect 60 level character. But from the ToP to the Moro arc we are talking about two relatively close power levels.

Also, this arc -and now that it ended we can safely say it- proved that UI is in a whole other league from Sign, it had Goku not being able to touch Moro73 to breaking his wrist just by flexing. Meaning the leap Goku took from Sign to UI during the ToP is too big for GP arc Sign to close, so a perfect 90 should be above a non-perfect 95 (numbers came out of my ass, yes)
I was expecting some sort of explanation from Whis, like "now that you have it under your belt and can use it at will, it makes you much stronger than it did during the ToP", but I guess Goku's initial UI -before the toll- really took him to the next level.

It makes sense. The thing to question is, if we ever get the anime to this point, will the gap between Omen and MUI still be visible like this?

For all it's worth, I believe that the anime has shown a far smaller gap between the 2, probably due to the 3 phases of Omen being upgraded each singular time (more or less implying peak 3rd Omen = subpar MUI tier). As for Moro, it is as you said, 7-Moro-3 represents that previous ceiling of power. And seeing how ToP MUI dealt with Jiren, it doesn't sound far fetched that it would still contend with Moro and have the upper hand.

Anyway to not complicate this further, I agree. You can't just solo a lvl 90 raid boss, just because you are lvl 95.