Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[FishermanJohnWest]

We can tell by how much Goku compliments Jiren that he was the strongest he has fought so far, until he met Moro. With Broly, we don’t see that certainty. I would say Broly may be equal to Jiren, if not slightly weaker.

He puts Broly > himself, and in the manga, he specifically points to him when talking about stronger people them himself. And Frieza says he is the mightest if he can bring that power out without losing his sense of self. And the novel also places him > Jiren and UI Goku even as a SSJ.

Akira wrote the movie, unlike the anime which has Toei written all over it, same Toei that had them say that they saw a light like Zamasu yet Zamasu in the anime is trash

[GodVegetto91]

We can tell by how much Goku compliments Jiren that he was the strongest he has fought so far, until he met Moro. With Broly, we don’t see that certainty. I would say Broly may be equal to Jiren, if not slightly weaker.

He puts Broly > himself, and in the manga, he specifically points to him when talking about stronger people them himself. And Frieza says he is the mightest if he can bring that power out without losing his sense of self. And the novel also places him > Jiren and UI Goku even as a SSJ.

Akira wrote the movie, unlike the anime which has Toei written all over it, same Toei that had them say that they saw a light like Zamasu yet Zamasu in the anime is trash

FishermanJohnWest is correct. Hugo Boss is wrong. His argument makes no sense, and it is clear that he is arguing purely from a bias. A need for Jiren to be stronger than he really is. All evidence points towards Broly >>> Jiren. It’s time people came to accept it.

[Hugo Boss]

We can tell by how much Goku compliments Jiren that he was the strongest he has fought so far, until he met Moro. With Broly, we don’t see that certainty. I would say Broly may be equal to Jiren, if not slightly weaker.

He puts Broly > himself, and in the manga, he specifically points to him when talking about stronger people them himself. And Frieza says he is the mightest if he can bring that power out without losing his sense of self. And the novel also places him > Jiren and UI Goku even as a SSJ.

Akira wrote the movie, unlike the anime which has Toei written all over it, same Toei that had them say that they saw a light like Zamasu yet Zamasu in the anime is trash

FishermanJohnWest is correct. Hugo Boss is wrong. His argument makes no sense, and it is clear that he is arguing purely from a bias. A need for Jiren to be stronger than he really is. All evidence points towards Broly >>> Jiren. It’s time people came to accept it.

Care to explain your reasoning? I don’t see where Goku and Freeza say that Broly is stronger than Jiren.

[Koitsukai]

I still can't believe the toughest/strongest is still debated. Moro7-3 >>> DBS, end of discussion.

The novel quote from Freeza does not exist in the movie, which happens to be the main product, therefore it cannot be applied to the anime, so if people want to give credit to that quote, then you have to use it for the closest medium: the manga... where Freeza only fights what could be considered base Jiren, before any power up. Meaning SS Broly is stronger than Jiren before powering up to fight Sign Goku, and Jiren had two more power-ups left, one that let him fight UI.

The Moro arc showed the gap between Sign and UI, Goku can't touch Moro and then he can break his wrist just by standing there. Jiren climbed that ladder.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Moro(Merus) >> Moro(7-3) > Broly > Jiren

That is how I have it. Reasonable gaps between them. Broly high diffs Jiren, Moro(7-3) high diffs Broly & Moro(Merus) low / mid diffs his previous form. The Gap really starts to show once Moro taps Into that angelic power.

[TCH]

I still can't believe the toughest/strongest is still debated. Moro7-3 >>> DBS, end of discussion.

The novel quote from Freeza does not exist in the movie, which happens to be the main product, therefore it cannot be applied to the anime, so if people want to give credit to that quote, then you have to use it for the closest medium: the manga... where Freeza only fights what could be considered base Jiren, before any power up. Meaning SS Broly is stronger than Jiren before powering up to fight Sign Goku, and Jiren had two more power-ups left, one that let him fight UI.

The Moro arc showed the gap between Sign and UI, Goku can't touch Moro and then he can break his wrist just by standing there. Jiren climbed that ladder.

This. Jiren is very underrated on here.

[Miracles]

People still in denial about Moro's untrained strength [the topic], being the toughest [describes Moro's power] Goku has ever fought.

Oh boy.

[Nevaeh]

Moro being the strongest while at the same time implied to be weaker than Beerus means Broly doesn't have much to stand on anymore

All of us in the Jiren > Broly club have been vindicated

[Miracles]

I never understood how fans think Jiren is greater than Broly either. The power necessary to defeat Broly escalated from a singular transformation [Ultra Instinct], against Jiren; to our heroes using their strongest trump card in a Blue Gogeta fusion.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I never understood how fans think Jiren is greater than Broly either. The power necessary to defeat Broly escalated from a singular transformation [Ultra Instinct], against Jiren; to our heroes using their strongest trump card in a Blue Gogeta fusion.

Easy:

Ultra Instinct has been played up as this ultimate power that surpasses everything that has come before, even Fusion itself. It's a power even Gods of Destruction haven't mastered, and the starting stage for which one can attain the level that is beyond any gods, the Angels.

Then we have the manga showing how this power is so great that even the strongest opponent they've ever faced yet is hopeless against it without tapping into the source of this power, a trainee Angel. Even the supplementary media have been playing lip service to the idea that Ultra Instinct may well surpass even god-form-level Fusions, mainly SDBH.

Fact of the matter is, Ultra Instinct is the hot new power-up that eclipses the Gods of Destructions. And knowing that it's an angelic technique/power, it really should be something even mere Potara/Metamoran Fusion cannot match. It's like what Super Saiyan God initially represented, but this time actually being executed as such.

[Thani]

"Strongest trump card" can also easily apply to Goku's Ultra Instinct as well. Promotional material rarely means anything nowadays.

[Yuji]

I never understood how fans think Jiren is greater than Broly either. The power necessary to defeat Broly escalated from a singular transformation [Ultra Instinct], against Jiren; to our heroes using their strongest trump card in a Blue Gogeta fusion.

Easy:

Ultra Instinct has been played up as this ultimate power that surpasses everything that has come before, even Fusion itself. It's a power even Gods of Destruction haven't mastered, and the starting stage for which one can attain the level that is beyond any gods, the Angels.

Then we have the manga showing how this power is so great that even the strongest opponent they've ever faced yet is hopeless against it without tapping into the source of this power, a trainee Angel. Even the supplementary media have been playing lip service to the idea that Ultra Instinct may well surpass even god-form-level Fusions, mainly SDBH.

Fact of the matter is, Ultra Instinct is the hot new power-up that eclipses the Gods of Destructions. And knowing that it's an angelic technique/power, it really should be something even mere Potara/Metamoran Fusion cannot match. It's like what Super Saiyan God initially represented, but this time actually being executed as such.

Beerus is implied to be stronger than MUI Goku (which would mean Quitela is as well), he implies Vegeta can surpass it without learning it, and someone this arc will presumably match Goku without it. We know that Goku is at the bottom of the totem pole since he even lost to Jiren who just trained through conventional means. It's a great technique but at Goku's current level, it's not being treated as insurpassable.

[GodVegetto91]

I never understood how fans think Jiren is greater than Broly either. The power necessary to defeat Broly escalated from a singular transformation [Ultra Instinct], against Jiren; to our heroes using their strongest trump card in a Blue Gogeta fusion.

Did you... Just... Change your mind???!

[GodVegetto91]

Moro being the strongest while at the same time implied to be weaker than Beerus means Broly doesn't have much to stand on anymore

All of us in the Jiren > Broly club have been vindicated

It proves no such thing! You really need to learn about what actually constitutes as “proof”.. And that can only be the deductive method of tautologies. Aswell as Occam’s Razor and evidence.

What are the facts?

Fact 1: Broly is being directly compared to Lord Beerus as “probably stronger.”

(A similair statement was given to Vegito Blue in the future Trunks Arc... You know.. a BLUE FUSION!)

Fact 2: UI Goku has NOT been compared to Beerus in anyway, nor has any of the Moro’s, Jiren, and even Merus!

Fact 3: A rematch between Goku and Beerus is BOUND to happen at some point in the future, and it hasn’t happened yet.

And in order for a rematch to have any meaning, it must be a close fight! Meaning if Beerus >>>>> Current UI Goku >>>> ToP LB Jiren. And thus, Broly, who is >= Beerus, ALSO is >>>>>>>>>> Jiren as a result.

Then we have promotional material all lending support to the idea that Broly is far stronger than Jiren! Such as Frieza’s statements that Broly is number one in the whole omniverse, and the promo material stating that Broly is the strongest enemy Goku and co have ever fought!

Then you have the fact that Broly is a Saiyan and thus RAPIDLY improves mid battle.. Even IF Jiren were still stronger than him (I don’t believe this to be the case AT ALL..!) Then Broly could simply surpass and overcome him mid battle (just like Goku did! A much weaker Saiyan!) Broly has infinite potential and is a fan favorite. Toei knows this so Broly will automatically be stronger than Jiren for that reason alone... MONEY! Jiren is completely irrelevant, he likely won’t even appear in the future again and he’s not even from Universe 7! OR... a Saiyan!

Broly is 100% better than Jiren in every single way. This is not even a contest!

Broly literally went from being weaker than Base Vegeta, to forcing a post ToP GOGETA to go SSJ BLUE.!

In just under 2 hours!

And unlocked not 1, not 2, but THREE (3!) transformations in that one single fight! (If you count his Ikari form as newly achieved, which I do since Paragus seemed surprised by it.)

Broly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jiren!

A Fusion’s BASE Form is already stronger than Goku and Vegeta’s most powerful forms! (SSJ Blue!) as clearly shown by the feats of Base Vegito and Base Gogeta in Super respectively!) If the Base form is already >>>SSJ Blue Goku, then imagine how powerful a SSJ Blue VEGITO or GOGETA must be... Do you will the UI multiplier over SSJ Blue is greater than SSJ Blue is over Base???!

[Hugo Boss]

Fact 1: Broly is being directly compared to Lord Beerus as “probably stronger.”

(A similair statement was given to Vegito Blue in the future Trunks Arc... You know.. a BLUE FUSION!)

Considering that Goku confirmed Moro was stronger than Broly and new chapter implies that Beerus is potentially even stronger than Goku, who far surpassed Moro, those assessments are at least questionable. None of them have saw Beerus using the divine technique that rivals Ultra Instinct.

Then we have promotional material all lending support to the idea that Broly is far stronger than Jiren! Such as Frieza’s statements that Broly is number one in the whole omniverse, and the promo material stating that Broly is the strongest enemy Goku and co have ever fought!

This keeps being brought up, but I never saw it written anywhere.

Of course, I don’t doubt that Broly might be able to overcome Goku again in the future, given his potential for growth, but I have yet to see any evidence that he already climbed that ladder in the movie.

Do you will[(?) the UI multiplier over SSJ Blue is greater than SSJ Blue is over Base???!

I don’t quite understand this question. As far as the movie is concerned SS Broly was stronger than two SSBlue and evenly matched with SS Gogeta. There is no comparison to be made between Base Gogeta and SSB.

Are you implying that Ultra Instinct makes Goku less strong than a Super Saiyan Blue fusion? Based on what? Between current Goku and Gogeta from the movie, Goku probably is the strongest, as his strength was far beyond the scope of Moro. Gogeta didn’t show such a dominance, to be honest.

[Miracles]

I never understood how fans think Jiren is greater than Broly either. The power necessary to defeat Broly escalated from a singular transformation [Ultra Instinct], against Jiren; to our heroes using their strongest trump card in a Blue Gogeta fusion.

Easy:

Ultra Instinct has been played up as this ultimate power that surpasses everything that has come before, even Fusion itself. It's a power even Gods of Destruction haven't mastered, and the starting stage for which one can attain the level that is beyond any gods, the Angels.

Then we have the manga showing how this power is so great that even the strongest opponent they've ever faced yet is hopeless against it without tapping into the source of this power, a trainee Angel. Even the supplementary media have been playing lip service to the idea that Ultra Instinct may well surpass even god-form-level Fusions, mainly SDBH.

Fact of the matter is, Ultra Instinct is the hot new power-up that eclipses the Gods of Destructions. And knowing that it's an angelic technique/power, it really should be something even mere Potara/Metamoran Fusion cannot match. It's like what Super Saiyan God initially represented, but this time actually being executed as such.

Well lets not lose truthful story perspective on Dragonball. We know for a fact that Toriyama's current enemy is "always strongest." He even stated he can't "let people" tell him the next enemy is weaker. Even went so far to say there is "no way you can take a step back." Which means Jiren is weaker than Broly on that established fact alone.

Therefore, going into the next arc, a stronger power was needed to face Broly. Something more powerful than TOP UI. That would be a Broly arc Blue fusion. In order to demonstrate the strength escalation of the current enemy from the previous. No way a TOP UI Goku or Jiren beat Blue Gogeta in the Broly arc. Now current UI Goku; from the Moro and Granolah arcs, being stronger than a previous Gogeta Blue fusion, is very likely. Since Moro is stronger than Broly and Granolah will be stronger than Moro.

That's the ladder effect. It's just the law of the land in Dragonball. Former arc power levels are thrown out for the future of our opponents and protagonists.

I never understood how fans think Jiren is greater than Broly either. The power necessary to defeat Broly escalated from a singular transformation [Ultra Instinct], against Jiren; to our heroes using their strongest trump card in a Blue Gogeta fusion.

Did you... Just... Change your mind???!

About what?

[GodVegetto91]

I never understood how fans think Jiren is greater than Broly either. The power necessary to defeat Broly escalated from a singular transformation [Ultra Instinct], against Jiren; to our heroes using their strongest trump card in a Blue Gogeta fusion.

Easy:

Ultra Instinct has been played up as this ultimate power that surpasses everything that has come before, even Fusion itself. It's a power even Gods of Destruction haven't mastered, and the starting stage for which one can attain the level that is beyond any gods, the Angels.

Then we have the manga showing how this power is so great that even the strongest opponent they've ever faced yet is hopeless against it without tapping into the source of this power, a trainee Angel. Even the supplementary media have been playing lip service to the idea that Ultra Instinct may well surpass even god-form-level Fusions, mainly SDBH.

Fact of the matter is, Ultra Instinct is the hot new power-up that eclipses the Gods of Destructions. And knowing that it's an angelic technique/power, it really should be something even mere Potara/Metamoran Fusion cannot match. It's like what Super Saiyan God initially represented, but this time actually being executed as such.

Well lets not lose truthful story perspective on Dragonball. We know for a fact that Toriyama's current enemy is "always strongest." He even stated he can't "let people" tell him the next enemy is weaker. Even went so far to say there is "no way you can take a step back." Which means Jiren is weaker than Broly on that established fact alone.

Therefore, going into the next arc, a stronger power was needed to face Broly. Something more powerful than TOP UI. That would be a Broly arc Blue fusion. In order to demonstrate the strength escalation of the current enemy from the previous. No way a TOP UI Goku or Jiren beat Blue Gogeta in the Broly arc. Now current UI Goku; from the Moro and Granolah arcs, being stronger than a previous Gogeta Blue fusion, is very likely. Since Moro is stronger than Broly and Granolah will be stronger than Moro.

That's the ladder effect. It's just the law of the land in Dragonball. Former arc power levels are thrown out for the future of our opponents and protagonists.

I never understood how fans think Jiren is greater than Broly either. The power necessary to defeat Broly escalated from a singular transformation [Ultra Instinct], against Jiren; to our heroes using their strongest trump card in a Blue Gogeta fusion.

Did you... Just... Change your mind???!

About what?

You’re saying that since Broly requiered a FUSION between Goku and Vegeta to beat, rather than a singular transformation as was the case against Jiren.. Proves that Broly is stronger than Jiren.. (Which I agree with.)

But if you believe in that logic, then you also believe Broly >>>>>>> Moro Merus. Since it requiered singular UI Goku to defeat again just like with Jiren (albeit this time with some outside help from friends.)

Broly (requiers a BLUE Fusion to beat) >>>>> Moro Merus requiers a current UI Goku (with friends’ and Uub’s help) to beat >>>>> Jiren requiers a singular UI Goku to defeat.

[GodVegetto91]

Fact 1: Broly is being directly compared to Lord Beerus as “probably stronger.”

(A similair statement was given to Vegito Blue in the future Trunks Arc... You know.. a BLUE FUSION!)

Considering that Goku confirmed Moro was stronger than Broly and new chapter implies that Beerus is potentially even stronger than Goku, who far surpassed Moro, those assessments are at least questionable. None of them have saw Beerus using the divine technique that rivals Ultra Instinct.

Then we have promotional material all lending support to the idea that Broly is far stronger than Jiren! Such as Frieza’s statements that Broly is number one in the whole omniverse, and the promo material stating that Broly is the strongest enemy Goku and co have ever fought!

This keeps being brought up, but I never saw it written anywhere.

Of course, I don’t doubt that Broly might be able to overcome Goku again in the future, given his potential for growth, but I have yet to see any evidence that he already climbed that ladder in the movie.

Do you will[(?) the UI multiplier over SSJ Blue is greater than SSJ Blue is over Base???!

I don’t quite understand this question. As far as the movie is concerned SS Broly was stronger than two SSBlue and evenly matched with SS Gogeta. There is no comparison to be made between Base Gogeta and SSB.

Are you implying that Ultra Instinct makes Goku less strong than a Super Saiyan Blue fusion? Based on what? Between current Goku and Gogeta from the movie, Goku probably is the strongest, as his strength was far beyond the scope of Moro. Gogeta didn’t show such a dominance, to be honest.

It was a typo.. Okay? I meant to say THINK.

[Hugo Boss]

It was a typo.. Okay? I meant to say THINK.

Thought so. But I wasn’t exactly replying to your grammar, but rather the reason behind that question.

[Miracles]

Easy:

Ultra Instinct has been played up as this ultimate power that surpasses everything that has come before, even Fusion itself. It's a power even Gods of Destruction haven't mastered, and the starting stage for which one can attain the level that is beyond any gods, the Angels.

Then we have the manga showing how this power is so great that even the strongest opponent they've ever faced yet is hopeless against it without tapping into the source of this power, a trainee Angel. Even the supplementary media have been playing lip service to the idea that Ultra Instinct may well surpass even god-form-level Fusions, mainly SDBH.

Fact of the matter is, Ultra Instinct is the hot new power-up that eclipses the Gods of Destructions. And knowing that it's an angelic technique/power, it really should be something even mere Potara/Metamoran Fusion cannot match. It's like what Super Saiyan God initially represented, but this time actually being executed as such.

Well lets not lose truthful story perspective on Dragonball. We know for a fact that Toriyama's current enemy is "always strongest." He even stated he can't "let people" tell him the next enemy is weaker. Even went so far to say there is "no way you can take a step back." Which means Jiren is weaker than Broly on that established fact alone.

Therefore, going into the next arc, a stronger power was needed to face Broly. Something more powerful than TOP UI. That would be a Broly arc Blue fusion. In order to demonstrate the strength escalation of the current enemy from the previous. No way a TOP UI Goku or Jiren beat Blue Gogeta in the Broly arc. Now current UI Goku; from the Moro and Granolah arcs, being stronger than a previous Gogeta Blue fusion, is very likely. Since Moro is stronger than Broly and Granolah will be stronger than Moro.

That's the ladder effect. It's just the law of the land in Dragonball. Former arc power levels are thrown out for the future of our opponents and protagonists.

Did you... Just... Change your mind???!

About what?

You’re saying that since Broly requiered a FUSION between Goku and Vegeta to beat, rather than a singular transformation as was the case against Jiren.. Proves that Broly is stronger than Jiren.. (Which I agree with.)

But if you believe in that logic, then you also believe Broly >>>>>>> Moro Merus. Since it requiered singular UI Goku to defeat again just like with Jiren (albeit this time with some outside help from friends.)

Broly (requiers a BLUE Fusion to beat) >>>>> Moro Merus requiers a current UI Goku (with friends’ and Uub’s help) to beat >>>>> Jiren requiers a singular UI Goku to defeat.

You misunderstood. I stated a next arc Blue Gogeta, with a stronger Goku and Vegeta, as it's combined parts would naturally beat previous Tournament of Power UI Goku and Jiren. All due to Toriyama's "always" next enemy > last narrative. An arc later, Moro is stronger than Broly, UI Goku smashed this same Moro with a few moves.

Now we are in the Granolah arc, where the strongest warrior in the universe is about to be birthed, being Granolah. Who will dethrone Moro as the strongest enemy, just as Moro did Broly. This means Blue Gogeta from the Broly arc been surpassed. We just now found out Goku's UI has strength levels to it too. New levels of power keep being reached while the old is surpassed. It's just the immovable law of the land in Dragonball.