Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Magnificent Ponta]

It's also worth tossing in the possibility that, depending on what Beerus's as-yet-unknown technique does and how it works, he could still be slightly weaker in the conventional, 'bigger/smaller ki power' sense than Moro or Broly (or even Jiren) and yet still be capable of beating them all ends up.

[Miracles]

Then why is Broly compared to Lord Beerus while Moro Merus and UI Goku aren’t??? Why was Broly able to force a post ToP Gogeta to go SSJ Blue (and perfected SSJ Blue in the manga)??? Why was a Blue Vegito also the only one compared to Beerus, and the singular warriors who utilize UI aren’t??? Remember that Base Vegito and Base Gogeta are already stronger than Perfected SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta based on feats.

I agree with you that normally it is the norm that next enemies are stronger than the last... But NOT when Fusions are involved.. Only Merged Zamasu is exempt from this rule because he is IMMORTAL. Broly isn’t, so that guy is based entirely on pure physical strength.

Fusions of earlier arcs are allowed to still be stronger than the top dogs of later arcs..

The facts are as followed:

Only Blue Fusion level characters have been compared to Beerus in any way..

This includes Broly and Vegito Blue from the Zamasu Arc. And naturally the far superior Gogeta from the Broly movie..

Now you can try to argue against it by questioning it, but you have to remember that evidence is not in your favor when doing that. Evidence (by the writers themselves) IS in favor of Broly and the Blue Fusions being in the realm of Lord Beerus. Again, if you question that, then you are questioning the very work and statements of the writers themselves! Which does not neccesarily make your argument look good..

That is all.

Broly's comparison was only a GUESS not a fact. That's why the story moved the ladder in power level, stating Moro and Granolah are stronger than Broly. Goku was proven wrong.

It’s not a guess when the word “PROBABLY” is involved...

Probably is another word for (highly likely!)....

In Vegito Blue’s case it was indeed more of a guess by Shin... (who’s a not so reliable character afterall), He was asking: “Vegito Blue.. Could he already be stronger than Lord Beerus....?!”

But not in Broly’s case!

Still, even for that Vegito Blue.. A comparison was made at least!

And I can’t say the same for UI Goku and Moro Merus..

And don’t you think it’s a big coincidence that only Blue Fusion Level characters are compared to Beerus???

You seem to be very strongly in denial about this one it turns out..

The word "probably" is contrary to TRUTH. It's speculation, not fact. That's why Moro and Granolah are/were stated strongest. That means they both usurped Broly. The power ladder moved on from Broly arc level. Goku was wrong. Next enemy > last. This is just the way Toriyama does things. You are gonna have to accept that fact.

[Koitsukai]

It's also worth tossing in the possibility that, depending on what Beerus's as-yet-unknown technique does and how it works, he could still be slightly weaker in the conventional, 'bigger/smaller ki power' sense than Moro or Broly (or even Jiren) and yet still be capable of beating them all ends up.

I'm also thinking this could be the case. This way, we wouldn't have to throw away every comparison made to Beerus. It'd be the official equivalent to the fan guess that Beerus might've been training.

Also, DBS has a knack for characters that can outperform their own power level (Hit, Immortal Zamasu, Roshi, Moro, UI), so it wouldn't come out of nowhere.

[GodVegetto91]

Broly's comparison was only a GUESS not a fact. That's why the story moved the ladder in power level, stating Moro and Granolah are stronger than Broly. Goku was proven wrong.

It’s not a guess when the word “PROBABLY” is involved...

Probably is another word for (highly likely!)....

In Vegito Blue’s case it was indeed more of a guess by Shin... (who’s a not so reliable character afterall), He was asking: “Vegito Blue.. Could he already be stronger than Lord Beerus....?!”

But not in Broly’s case!

Still, even for that Vegito Blue.. A comparison was made at least!

And I can’t say the same for UI Goku and Moro Merus..

And don’t you think it’s a big coincidence that only Blue Fusion Level characters are compared to Beerus???

You seem to be very strongly in denial about this one it turns out..

The word "probably" is contrary to TRUTH. It's speculation, not fact. That's why Moro and Granolah are/were stated strongest. That means they both usurped Broly. The power ladder moved on from Broly arc level. Goku was wrong. Next enemy > last. This is just the way Toriyama does things. You are gonna have to accept that fact.

Moro was never stated to be the strongest. Only Granola (or whoever ends up being the one) has been stated to be, the “strongest” warrior in the universe.

[Yuji]

It's also worth tossing in the possibility that, depending on what Beerus's as-yet-unknown technique does and how it works, he could still be slightly weaker in the conventional, 'bigger/smaller ki power' sense than Moro or Broly (or even Jiren) and yet still be capable of beating them all ends up.

Based on Toppo's wording in the manga, where he says "based on combat skill alone, Jiren is stronger than Belmod," hinting at Belmod's potential victory in a real fight, I also think this is the case. Even back then this sort of situation was guarded for.

[GodVegetto91]

Broly's comparison was only a GUESS not a fact. That's why the story moved the ladder in power level, stating Moro and Granolah are stronger than Broly. Goku was proven wrong.

It’s not a guess when the word “PROBABLY” is involved...

Probably is another word for (highly likely!)....

In Vegito Blue’s case it was indeed more of a guess by Shin... (who’s a not so reliable character afterall), He was asking: “Vegito Blue.. Could he already be stronger than Lord Beerus....?!”

But not in Broly’s case!

Still, even for that Vegito Blue.. A comparison was made at least!

And I can’t say the same for UI Goku and Moro Merus..

And don’t you think it’s a big coincidence that only Blue Fusion Level characters are compared to Beerus???

You seem to be very strongly in denial about this one it turns out..

The word "probably" is contrary to TRUTH. It's speculation, not fact. That's why Moro and Granolah are/were stated strongest. That means they both usurped Broly. The power ladder moved on from Broly arc level. Goku was wrong. Next enemy > last. This is just the way Toriyama does things. You are gonna have to accept that fact.

Question.. Do you think Prime Moro is stronger than Broly??? (Not just Moro 73 and beyond.)

(I have no problem if you do, I just like to know, that’s all.)

[FishermanJohnWest]

In the end, they consistently wanked Beerus higher and higher throughout the series, so Broly being probably > Beerus doesn't mean he is under Jiren, but simply places Beerus >> Jiren and UI Goku itself from the ToP

In the end, believe what you guys want cause super doesn't care about consistency at all.

My stance is

- Jiren is merely a rival to Goku, if he ever comes back, he will be close or = to Goku, he will never be > Goku ever again now that he has UI
- Frieza won't die until the end of the series, they will consistently keep abusing him until the series ends, he makes good money and brings views
- Any time a transformation is spammed (Like SSJB), Gohan will reach that power sooner or later for the sake of him being relevant for like 2 minutes of screen time in the future arc
- Beerus will be pushed higher than Goku through any means until that silly rematch
- Broly will always be push > Goku and Vegeta (unless they do fusion or teamwork), Broly will always be the strongest saiyan and as long as he makes the money, he will keep that status
- Fusions will always be the strongest trump card due to how rare the appearance rate will be
- Vegeta will always rival or surpass Goku for like 1 minute until Goku leaves him behind for an arc or more
- Unless fusion is involved, Goku will always get a 1 on 1 fight against the main guy and lose cause the enemy either cheats or Goku runs out of juice in his form or both
- After Goku loses, Vegeta will always have his 1 moment but fail in the end
- There is always going to be a 3rd party involvement that helps the Z fighters win towards the end of every arc (unless fusion is involved)
- Whis and the angels are plot protected until Beerus is surpassed
- Beerus won't be the measuring stick for Broly or the fusions ever again, it's been overdone already
- Piccolo and the rest are trash, don't expect shit from them ever again

[Grand Marshal 1]

In the end, they consistently wanked Beerus higher and higher throughout the series, so Broly being probably > Beerus doesn't mean he is under Jiren, but simply places Beerus >> Jiren and UI Goku itself from the ToP

In the end, believe what you guys want cause super doesn't care about consistency at all.

My stance is

- Jiren is merely a rival to Goku, if he ever comes back, he will be close or = to Goku, he will never be > Goku ever again now that he has UI
- Frieza won't die until the end of the series, they will consistently keep abusing him until the series ends, he makes good money and brings views
- Any time a transformation is spammed (Like SSJB), Gohan will reach that power sooner or later for the sake of him being relevant for like 2 minutes of screen time in the future arc
- Beerus will be pushed higher than Goku through any means until that silly rematch
- Broly will always be push > Goku and Vegeta (unless they do fusion or teamwork), Broly will always be the strongest saiyan and as long as he makes the money, he will keep that status
- Fusions will always be the strongest trump card due to how rare the appearance rate will be
- Vegeta will always rival or surpass Goku for like 1 minute until Goku leaves him behind for an arc or more
- Unless fusion is involved, Goku will always get a 1 on 1 fight against the main guy and lose cause the enemy either cheats or Goku runs out of juice in his form or both
- After Goku loses, Vegeta will always have his 1 moment but fail in the end
- There is always going to be a 3rd party involvement that helps the Z fighters win towards the end of every arc (unless fusion is involved)
- Whis and the angels are plot protected until Beerus is surpassed
- Beerus won't be the measuring stick for Broly or the fusions ever again, it's been overdone already
- Piccolo and the rest are trash, don't expect shit from them ever again

Couldn't agree more. I suppose it's just fun to go through the scaling process and that's what attracts people to it. Thye more you scale the more you try to make sense out of stuff, therefore you fall down the rabbit hole of needing to defend your arguments and counter any statement that won't make them work. For what it's worth, the characters will be as strong as the story needs them to be. I would be happy if I saw some more consistency from the Toyo or Toei though, in any media.

[Miracles]

It’s not a guess when the word “PROBABLY” is involved...

Probably is another word for (highly likely!)....

In Vegito Blue’s case it was indeed more of a guess by Shin... (who’s a not so reliable character afterall), He was asking: “Vegito Blue.. Could he already be stronger than Lord Beerus....?!”

But not in Broly’s case!

Still, even for that Vegito Blue.. A comparison was made at least!

And I can’t say the same for UI Goku and Moro Merus..

And don’t you think it’s a big coincidence that only Blue Fusion Level characters are compared to Beerus???

You seem to be very strongly in denial about this one it turns out..

The word "probably" is contrary to TRUTH. It's speculation, not fact. That's why Moro and Granolah are/were stated strongest. That means they both usurped Broly. The power ladder moved on from Broly arc level. Goku was wrong. Next enemy > last. This is just the way Toriyama does things. You are gonna have to accept that fact.

Moro was never stated to be the strongest. Only Granola (or whoever ends up being the one) has been stated to be, the “strongest” warrior in the universe.

Luckily the story cements what "tough" means. The word is interchangeable with overall power too. Goku crowning Moro, as never coming across anyone as "tough" as him, is an accolade of combat plurality in all of history. It is not referring to a single entity of power or circumstances. Especially since Goku was talking about Moro's current strength possibly increasing through training. Yes, Moro was stated to be the strongest, synonymous with tough.

It’s not a guess when the word “PROBABLY” is involved...

Probably is another word for (highly likely!)....

In Vegito Blue’s case it was indeed more of a guess by Shin... (who’s a not so reliable character afterall), He was asking: “Vegito Blue.. Could he already be stronger than Lord Beerus....?!”

But not in Broly’s case!

Still, even for that Vegito Blue.. A comparison was made at least!

And I can’t say the same for UI Goku and Moro Merus..

And don’t you think it’s a big coincidence that only Blue Fusion Level characters are compared to Beerus???

You seem to be very strongly in denial about this one it turns out..

The word "probably" is contrary to TRUTH. It's speculation, not fact. That's why Moro and Granolah are/were stated strongest. That means they both usurped Broly. The power ladder moved on from Broly arc level. Goku was wrong. Next enemy > last. This is just the way Toriyama does things. You are gonna have to accept that fact.

Question.. Do you think Prime Moro is stronger than Broly??? (Not just Moro 73 and beyond.)

(I have no problem if you do, I just like to know, that’s all.)

With the story stating that Goku and Vegeta left Broly saga "stronger than ever," Then while in Moro's arc; Goku and Vegeta train some more, where Vegeta gets stronger in a very short time period by "leaps and bounds." This is before his two month training period is up BTW. Goku got six months worth of training in two months. Using a room where one day of training is worth three days, achieving a new level of power with UI Sign. With Vegeta coming back after his training stronger than this UI sign Goku, still both paled in comparison to Prime Moro.

The gains for Goku and Vegeta are too big too ignore. I believe Prime Moro is just as strong/stronger than Full power Broly.

[GodVegetto91]

The word "probably" is contrary to TRUTH. It's speculation, not fact. That's why Moro and Granolah are/were stated strongest. That means they both usurped Broly. The power ladder moved on from Broly arc level. Goku was wrong. Next enemy > last. This is just the way Toriyama does things. You are gonna have to accept that fact.

Moro was never stated to be the strongest. Only Granola (or whoever ends up being the one) has been stated to be, the “strongest” warrior in the universe.

Luckily the story cements what "tough" means. The word is interchangeable with overall power too. Goku crowning Moro, as never coming across anyone as "tough" as him, is an accolade of combat plurality in all of history. It is not referring to a single entity of power or circumstances. Especially since Goku was talking about Moro's current strength possibly increasing through training. Yes, Moro was stated to be the strongest, synonymous with tough.

The word "probably" is contrary to TRUTH. It's speculation, not fact. That's why Moro and Granolah are/were stated strongest. That means they both usurped Broly. The power ladder moved on from Broly arc level. Goku was wrong. Next enemy > last. This is just the way Toriyama does things. You are gonna have to accept that fact.

Question.. Do you think Prime Moro is stronger than Broly??? (Not just Moro 73 and beyond.)

(I have no problem if you do, I just like to know, that’s all.)

With the story stating that Goku and Vegeta left Broly saga "stronger than ever," Then while in Moro's arc; Goku and Vegeta train some more, where Vegeta gets stronger in a very short time period by "leaps and bounds." This is before his two month training period is up BTW. Goku got six months worth of training in two months. Using a room where one day of training is worth three days, achieving a new level of power with UI Sign. With Vegeta coming back after his training stronger than this UI sign Goku, still both paled in comparison to Prime Moro.

The gains for Goku and Vegeta are too big too ignore. I believe Prime Moro is just as strong/stronger than Full power Broly.

I’d have no problem with accepting even Prime Moro to be stronger than Broly IF they came out and stated so... But until that time, I can’t accept it as fact, as I’m a rational person that requiers evidence for something in order to believe said thing. This even goes for Moro Merus aswell!

If the writers actually BOTHERED to tell us exactly (and clearly!) who’s stronger than who, I will accept anything at all.

[Koitsukai]

I wouldn't put much thought to brief editorial quotes prior to the arc like "they came out stronger than ever", though. That's as vague as you can get, a 0.1% improvement is them being stronger than ever too, and they have reached some sort of plateau with their previous training regime (if it weren't for Pybara and Merus they would still be in the SSB-SSBE tier), zenkais having been left in the dust a long time ago, as well, and they didn't suffered serious injuries or broke any limits. I read that sentence more like "they keep overcoming obstacles and are ready for new ones".

That said, It's definitely possible that the saiyans have closed the gap with Broly. They got bigger gains during the Moro arc than they probably had in every other arc. That happened because it was the one arc (with FT and the Cell arc) where they got to train to take down the villain, and not just train, they went through specific regimes with particular masters to attain certain techniques. No direct comparisons or implications were made, but still their improvement was incredible.

However, while possible, there is no need to have Prime Moro already stronger than Broly, when he has 2 more forms to go.
To me, Prime Moro is a bit below Broly and Jiren, and he takes the lead when his plan B is unveiled.

[Miracles]

Statements like "stronger than ever" are not brief editorials, they are canonically in story. Narrated by the author[s]. This same literal depiction of power, was reiterated in story again by 18.

BTW this is not intended to be defined as small gains. A 0.1% increase does not mean "stronger than ever." Especially when Vegeta was formerley stated to be stronger by "leaps and bounds" during his Yardrat training. Emphasized even more later to be barely recognized by Piccolo. This Vegeta was stronger than UI Sign Goku. If we look at the canonical precedent set by Dragonball for such language, the gains are not minimal but in large degrees in levels.

Just saying, it's not a stretch to see Prime Moro as strong/stronger than Broly due to the huge gains the heroes made between events.

[GodVegetto91]

I wouldn't put much thought to brief editorial quotes prior to the arc like "they came out stronger than ever", though. That's as vague as you can get, a 0.1% improvement is them being stronger than ever too, and they have reached some sort of plateau with their previous training regime (if it weren't for Pybara and Merus they would still be in the SSB-SSBE tier), zenkais having been left in the dust a long time ago, as well, and they didn't suffered serious injuries or broke any limits. I read that sentence more like "they keep overcoming obstacles and are ready for new ones".

That said, It's definitely possible that the saiyans have closed the gap with Broly. They got bigger gains during the Moro arc than they probably had in every other arc. That happened because it was the one arc (with FT and the Cell arc) where they got to train to take down the villain, and not just train, they went through specific regimes with particular masters to attain certain techniques. No direct comparisons or implications were made, but still their improvement was incredible.

However, while possible, there is no need to have Prime Moro already stronger than Broly, when he has 2 more forms to go.
To me, Prime Moro is a bit below Broly and Jiren, and he takes the lead when his plan B is unveiled.

Which Future Trunks Arc?? There are two of them. One in Z. And one in Super..

[Koitsukai]

I wouldn't put much thought to brief editorial quotes prior to the arc like "they came out stronger than ever", though. That's as vague as you can get, a 0.1% improvement is them being stronger than ever too, and they have reached some sort of plateau with their previous training regime (if it weren't for Pybara and Merus they would still be in the SSB-SSBE tier), zenkais having been left in the dust a long time ago, as well, and they didn't suffered serious injuries or broke any limits. I read that sentence more like "they keep overcoming obstacles and are ready for new ones".

That said, It's definitely possible that the saiyans have closed the gap with Broly. They got bigger gains during the Moro arc than they probably had in every other arc. That happened because it was the one arc (with FT and the Cell arc) where they got to train to take down the villain, and not just train, they went through specific regimes with particular masters to attain certain techniques. No direct comparisons or implications were made, but still their improvement was incredible.

However, while possible, there is no need to have Prime Moro already stronger than Broly, when he has 2 more forms to go.
To me, Prime Moro is a bit below Broly and Jiren, and he takes the lead when his plan B is unveiled.

Which Future Trunks Arc?? There are two of them. One in Z. And one in Super..

I meant the DBS FT arc, but yeah, every time Trunks comes back, they end up going through some training to defeat the bad guy.

[GodVegetto91]

I wouldn't put much thought to brief editorial quotes prior to the arc like "they came out stronger than ever", though. That's as vague as you can get, a 0.1% improvement is them being stronger than ever too, and they have reached some sort of plateau with their previous training regime (if it weren't for Pybara and Merus they would still be in the SSB-SSBE tier), zenkais having been left in the dust a long time ago, as well, and they didn't suffered serious injuries or broke any limits. I read that sentence more like "they keep overcoming obstacles and are ready for new ones".

That said, It's definitely possible that the saiyans have closed the gap with Broly. They got bigger gains during the Moro arc than they probably had in every other arc. That happened because it was the one arc (with FT and the Cell arc) where they got to train to take down the villain, and not just train, they went through specific regimes with particular masters to attain certain techniques. No direct comparisons or implications were made, but still their improvement was incredible.

However, while possible, there is no need to have Prime Moro already stronger than Broly, when he has 2 more forms to go.
To me, Prime Moro is a bit below Broly and Jiren, and he takes the lead when his plan B is unveiled.

Which Future Trunks Arc?? There are two of them. One in Z. And one in Super..

I meant the DBS FT arc, but yeah, every time Trunks comes back, they end up going through some training to defeat the bad guy.

It was hardly relevant training or comparable to the gains they got during the Moro Arc.. Only Vegeta did get some significant level of a boost through his 6 month time period training inside the hyperbolic time chamber to defeat Black. Goku didn’t do any physical training at all, he just learned some sealing technique by Roshi which turned out to be a waste of a training in the end.

You can’t compare the Zamasu Arc to the Moro Arc at all in terms of training gains for Goku and Vegeta.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

A big problem with training gains in the latest material is that we don't often see how much progress the heroes have made due to a lack of direct comparisons either by dialogue or by proxy of opponents accompanied by proxy dialogue comparisons.

Like, how much stronger is SSB now? How much stronger is Ultimate Gohan now?

They don't often make the necessary comparisons, just vague "stronger than before".

[Koitsukai]

Which Future Trunks Arc?? There are two of them. One in Z. And one in Super..

I meant the DBS FT arc, but yeah, every time Trunks comes back, they end up going through some training to defeat the bad guy.

It was hardly relevant training or comparable to the gains they got during the Moro Arc.. Only Vegeta did get some significant level of a boost through his 6 month time period training inside the hyperbolic time chamber to defeat Black. Goku didn’t do any physical training at all, he just learned some sealing technique by Roshi which turned out to be a waste of a training in the end.

You can’t compare the Zamasu Arc to the Moro Arc at all in terms of training gains for Goku and Vegeta.

I'm not comparing them to each other, I'm singling them out from the arcs where they start and end with the same power level (bar zenkais or new forms), like the Raditz arc, Vegeta arc, Namek arc, Android arc, Buu arc, RoF, U6 arc, ToP arc, Broly arc.
Both arcs featuring Trunks(vs Cell and Black), and Moro's had the guys "retreading" and training mid-arc because their initial strenght wasn't enough.

[GodVegetto91]

I meant the DBS FT arc, but yeah, every time Trunks comes back, they end up going through some training to defeat the bad guy.

It was hardly relevant training or comparable to the gains they got during the Moro Arc.. Only Vegeta did get some significant level of a boost through his 6 month time period training inside the hyperbolic time chamber to defeat Black. Goku didn’t do any physical training at all, he just learned some sealing technique by Roshi which turned out to be a waste of a training in the end.

You can’t compare the Zamasu Arc to the Moro Arc at all in terms of training gains for Goku and Vegeta.

I'm not comparing them to each other, I'm singling them out from the arcs where they start and end with the same power level (bar zenkais or new forms), like the Raditz arc, Vegeta arc, Namek arc, Android arc, Buu arc, RoF, U6 arc, ToP arc, Broly arc.
Both arcs featuring Trunks(vs Cell and Black), and Moro's had the guys "retreading" and training mid-arc because their initial strenght wasn't enough.

Fair enough.

[Hugo Boss]

Regarding the DBSuper Broly “stronger than ever” discussion, I think it could be just an acknowledgment of our characters coming out safe after a difficult battle, more like a figure of speech. It’s not so different of an everyday sentiment that some of us feel after a hard day of work. We don’t get “physically” stronger, but sometimes we say “I feel stronger than ever”.

In the most literal sense, Goku and Vegeta weren’t stronger than when they fought Jiren, since they didn’t use their strongest individual forms i.e. Ultra Instinct and SSBEvolution. It could be argued, though, that they were stronger than ever by successfully performing Blue Gogeta, which may be a method that surpass the level of Ultra Instinct that Goku used against Jiren.

[Polyphase Avatron]

This has probably been brought up before (at least I know I have), but I have heard some people saying things like Zeno isn't really strong and can't win an actual fight, both because he's not a fighter and because he had trouble perceiving the faster characters in combat. But I don't think that would really matter in a fight situation.

For example, if the match was Dyspo vs. Zeno, even if Dyspo could hit him 1000 times before he even knew what was happening, we've seen that Zeno is for all intents and purposes indestructible, so he wouldn't actually be hurt, and as soon as he was able to process a thought he could just erase Dyspo. So Dyspo's speed advantage really would not matter.

Zeno probably can't be destroyed by hakai either. Only his own erasure ability or a wish from the Super Dragon Balls might be able to kill him. It's also possible that some kind of Mafuba-like technique could seal him, but I would say it's unlikely.