Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Whis could be saying he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Goku and Vegeta as a duo or he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Goku, who is the strongest right now. I don’t think he is necessarily saying he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Vegeta and weaker than Goku, which would require him to ignore Goku in the equation.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Whis could be saying he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Goku and Vegeta as a duo or he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Goku, who is the strongest right now. I don’t think he is necessarily saying he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Vegeta and weaker than Goku, which would require him to ignore Goku in the equation.

Goku: Huh? Do you know anyone stronger than us out there?
Whis: Well, I do not... but there's no telling when another strong being will show up considering how huge the universe is. Isn't that right, Oracle Fish?

It can either be a duo or both Goku and Vegeta individually

[Soldierofficial]

Goku is asking Whis if he knows someone stronger than them, everyone is aware of Broly, Goku is clearly asking for someone he doesn't know yet.

[GodVegetto91]

None of that is a fact, nothing puts Vegeta above Broly or Jiren.

Wow...

The denial is strong in this one..

Way to straight-up ignore cold hard evidence..

If you don’t view the below statements by Goku and Whis as proof that Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Broly and Jiren, then I don’t know what to tell you...

Goku: Vegeta... he's getting taught by Beerus.
Whis: Does that concern you?
Goku: No, Vegeta is Vegeta. I must focus on improving Ultra Instinct. We'll see who'll become the strongest in the universe!
Whis: Oh my, but there's no guarantee that the strongest in the universe will end up being either of you.
Goku: Huh? Do you know anyone stronger than us out there?
Whis: Well, I do not... but there's no telling when another strong being will show up considering how huge the universe is. Isn't that right, Oracle Fish?
Oracle Fish: Huh? Oh yeah... The strongest warrior in the universe will shortly be born.
Whis: See!

Ironic coming from the guy who still doesn't want to admit that Saitama is not a worthy match for UI Goku or that Bruce Lee would be demolished by Mike Tyson.

I'm only interested in the facts, and nothing suggests that Vegeta surpassed Broly or Jiren.

Yeah, either you can't read or you're trolling because what you're saying has nothing to do with the statements, this is the kind of bad behavior that got you banned from NF, my patience goes this far, Maru, dont try to quote me again, I am aware of your motives and I am not interested.

What???! You must have me confused with someone else.. Clearly.. Since I have no idea of any of the things you just accused me of. You seem to be a very troubled person judging by your reply to me and how you ignore objective evidence.

[GodVegetto91]

Goku is asking Whis if he knows someone stronger than them, everyone is aware of Broly, Goku is clearly asking for someone he doesn't know yet.

Headcanon. You just added that yourself. Goku is clearly asking wether he knows of “ANYONE” stronger than him or Vegeta, and Whis replies: “No, I do not.” This is pretty straightforward and cannot be circled around.

Conclusion: Vegeta > Broly > Jiren.

This is the exact quote:

Goku: Huh? Do you know anyone stronger than us out there?
Whis: No, I do not...

Whis knows about Broly, and so does Goku.. But both don’t even consider Broly as a potential candidate to be this universe’s number 1 warrior.

[Soldierofficial]

Wow...

The denial is strong in this one..

Way to straight-up ignore cold hard evidence..

If you don’t view the below statements by Goku and Whis as proof that Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Broly and Jiren, then I don’t know what to tell you...

Ironic coming from the guy who still doesn't want to admit that Saitama is not a worthy match for UI Goku or that Bruce Lee would be demolished by Mike Tyson.

I'm only interested in the facts, and nothing suggests that Vegeta surpassed Broly or Jiren.

Yeah, either you can't read or you're trolling because what you're saying has nothing to do with the statements, this is the kind of bad behavior that got you banned from NF, my patience goes this far, Maru, dont try to quote me again, I am aware of your motives and I am not interested.

What???! You must have me confused with someone else.. Clearly.. Since I have no idea of any of the things you just accused me of. You seem to be a very troubled person judging by your reply to me and how you ignore objective evidence.

Ignoring objective evidence is your favorite hobby, Maru, don't try to fool anyone, do you want me to show your entire NF history so that everyone knows your true beliefs? It's not like you're not doing your thing here too, but nothing like what you've done there, I also have screenshots of everything you have sent me by private message, in addition to your lewd spams, I don't want to continue entertaining your nonsense, if I wanted to see obscene things I would go to the bathhouse, your comments disturb me in a bad way, this is not healthy, Maru, become like me and you would be fine.

[OrangeBanana]

Isn't the conversation about their own universe tho. and considering that the ToP was a no lethal fight Jiren was heavily nerfed. I reckon SSJB Goku and Vegeta are perhaps on par with Jiren, with MUI Goku surpassing him.
(Then again I know fuck all about power scaling)

[GodVegetto91]

Whis could be saying he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Goku and Vegeta as a duo or he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Goku, who is the strongest right now. I don’t think he is necessarily saying he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Vegeta and weaker than Goku, which would require him to ignore Goku in the equation.

This screams like a giant dismissal and denial to me again.. Goku very clearly asks wether Whis knows of ANYONE stronger than Goku and Vegeta who exists “out there”.. And Whis replies: ”No, I do not.” Seems pretty straightforward to me, don’t you think so?

Merus is no longer an Angel, Uub can’t access his latent God powers/Potential at will, and Moro is dead now.. So that leaves only Broly and Jiren.. The former of whom is stronger than the latter and happens to reside in Universe 7 aswell!

[TheQuestioner]

This is the translation from MShadows over on Narutoforums.

Beerus: You just broke it by flexing your power. The Hakai we Gods of Destruction use completely erases the existence of things from this world. We basically turn "1" into "0". When the material body is erased, a tremendous amount of energy is unleashed.
Goku: Is Beerus destroying things again?
Vegeta: What power!
Beerus: This explosion just now is the beauty of destruction. Can't get enough of it. Huh? Shit! I just destroyed this month's issue of God Comics!
Goku: Vegeta... he's getting taught by Beerus.
Whis: Does that concern you?
Goku: No, Vegeta is Vegeta. I must focus on improving Ultra Instinct. We'll see who'll become the strongest in the universe!
Whis: Oh my, but there's no guarantee that the strongest in the universe will end up being either of you.
Goku: Huh? Do you know anyone stronger than us out there?
Whis: Well, I do not... but there's no telling when another strong being will show up considering how huge the universe is. Isn't that right, Oracle Fish?
Oracle Fish: Huh? Oh yeah... The strongest warrior in the universe will shortly be born.
Whis: See!
Vegeta: He's talking about me!
Oracle Fish: Vegeta?
Goku: Hey, that's the Hakai technique! Wow, you're really good, Vegeta!
Vegeta: I will soon be able to destroy much larger things than what you just saw right now.

That's very helpful, this might shake things up a bit. Can you link the source?

[GodVegetto91]

This is the translation from MShadows over on Narutoforums.

Beerus: You just broke it by flexing your power. The Hakai we Gods of Destruction use completely erases the existence of things from this world. We basically turn "1" into "0". When the material body is erased, a tremendous amount of energy is unleashed.
Goku: Is Beerus destroying things again?
Vegeta: What power!
Beerus: This explosion just now is the beauty of destruction. Can't get enough of it. Huh? Shit! I just destroyed this month's issue of God Comics!
Goku: Vegeta... he's getting taught by Beerus.
Whis: Does that concern you?
Goku: No, Vegeta is Vegeta. I must focus on improving Ultra Instinct. We'll see who'll become the strongest in the universe!
Whis: Oh my, but there's no guarantee that the strongest in the universe will end up being either of you.
Goku: Huh? Do you know anyone stronger than us out there?
Whis: Well, I do not... but there's no telling when another strong being will show up considering how huge the universe is. Isn't that right, Oracle Fish?
Oracle Fish: Huh? Oh yeah... The strongest warrior in the universe will shortly be born.
Whis: See!
Vegeta: He's talking about me!
Oracle Fish: Vegeta?
Goku: Hey, that's the Hakai technique! Wow, you're really good, Vegeta!
Vegeta: I will soon be able to destroy much larger things than what you just saw right now.

That's very helpful, this might shake things up a bit. Can you link the source?

https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/dr ... 270/page-4

This is page 4.

[Hugo Boss]

Whis could be saying he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Goku and Vegeta as a duo or he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Goku, who is the strongest right now. I don’t think he is necessarily saying he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Vegeta and weaker than Goku, which would require him to ignore Goku in the equation.

This screams like a giant dismissal and denial to me again.. Goku very clearly asks wether Whis knows of ANYONE stronger than Goku and Vegeta who exists “out there”.. And Whis replies: ”No, I do not.” Seems pretty straightforward to me, don’t you think so?

I don’t think so. Based on the translation you quoted, Whis is not claiming he doesn’t know someone stronger than only Vegeta, he is claiming that he doesn’t know someone stronger than both Goku and Vegeta. Goku includes himself into the question, so the person has to be stronger than Goku at least. Meet both the requirements, get it? I’m not saying Vegeta isn’t stronger than Broly either, but Whis is not confirming he is yet, though it’s a possibility.

[GodVegetto91]

Whis could be saying he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Goku and Vegeta as a duo or he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Goku, who is the strongest right now. I don’t think he is necessarily saying he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Vegeta and weaker than Goku, which would require him to ignore Goku in the equation.

This screams like a giant dismissal and denial to me again.. Goku very clearly asks wether Whis knows of ANYONE stronger than Goku and Vegeta who exists “out there”.. And Whis replies: ”No, I do not.” Seems pretty straightforward to me, don’t you think so?

I don’t think so. Based on the translation you quoted, Whis is not claiming he doesn’t know someone stronger than only Vegeta, he is claiming that he doesn’t know someone stronger than both Goku and Vegeta. Goku includes himself into the question, so the person has to be stronger than Goku at least. Meet both the requirements, get it? I’m not saying Vegeta isn’t stronger than Broly either, but Whis is not confirming he is yet, though it’s a possibility.

I mean, obviously the implication here is simply that he doesn’t know anyone stronger than Vegeta aswell ofcourse.. So Broly and Jiren must be weaker than Vegeta. We know Uub can’t access his latent God Power at will (which was > Vegeta), while Merus is no longer an Angel, and Moro is dead ofcourse. So that leaves only Broly and Jiren.

Occam’s Razor would demand the simplest possible explanation, which in this case is obviously Vegeta > Any mortal Whis knows about that is still alive and can access his power for battle ofcourse.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Broly reaction

[Hugo Boss]

Occam’s Razor would demand the simplest possible explanation, which in this case is obviously Vegeta > Any mortal Whis knows about that is still alive and can access his power for battle ofcourse.

That’s not what Whis is saying though. He could know someone stronger than Vegeta and weaker than Goku, given the wide gap between them right now. Goku is specifically asking if there is someone stronger than both. Remember the context is about the strongest warrior in the universe. If the person Goku is asking is only stronger than Vegeta, Whis response wouldn’t be accurate. Your position is certainly one to considerate and makes sense, but it’s not the only one.

[GodVegetto91]

Occam’s Razor would demand the simplest possible explanation, which in this case is obviously Vegeta > Any mortal Whis knows about that is still alive and can access his power for battle ofcourse.

That’s not what Whis is saying though. He could know someone stronger than Vegeta and weaker than Goku, given the wide gap between them right now. Goku is specifically asking if there is someone stronger than both. Remember the context is about the strongest warrior in the universe. If the person Goku is asking is only stronger than Vegeta, Whis response wouldn’t be accurate. Your position is certainly one to considerate and makes sense, but it’s not the only one.

Us means Vegeta aswell. You are mistaken. It literally means there is no mortal alive right now stronger than Vegeta. Uub can’t access his latent God Powers afterall.

[Hugo Boss]

Occam’s Razor would demand the simplest possible explanation, which in this case is obviously Vegeta > Any mortal Whis knows about that is still alive and can access his power for battle ofcourse.

That’s not what Whis is saying though. He could know someone stronger than Vegeta and weaker than Goku, given the wide gap between them right now. Goku is specifically asking if there is someone stronger than both. Remember the context is about the strongest warrior in the universe. If the person Goku is asking is only stronger than Vegeta, Whis response wouldn’t be accurate. Your position is certainly one to considerate and makes sense, but it’s not the only one.

Us means Vegeta aswell. You are mistaken. It literally means there is no mortal alive right now stronger than Vegeta. Uub can’t access his latent God Powers afterall.

“Stronger than us” means stronger than Vegeta and (more importantly) Goku.. Whis doesn’t know such a person that meets these two requirements, that’s what he is saying. Let’s wait until Viz publishes the chapter to know if the implication is exactly like you are defending.

[GodVegetto91]

That’s not what Whis is saying though. He could know someone stronger than Vegeta and weaker than Goku, given the wide gap between them right now. Goku is specifically asking if there is someone stronger than both. Remember the context is about the strongest warrior in the universe. If the person Goku is asking is only stronger than Vegeta, Whis response wouldn’t be accurate. Your position is certainly one to considerate and makes sense, but it’s not the only one.

Us means Vegeta aswell. You are mistaken. It literally means there is no mortal alive right now stronger than Vegeta. Uub can’t access his latent God Powers afterall.

“Stronger than us” means stronger than Vegeta and (more importantly) Goku.. Whis doesn’t know such a person that meets these two requirements, that’s what he is saying. Let’s wait until Viz publishes the chapter to know if the implication is exactly like you are defending.

There is no one stronger than Goku, or Vegeta.. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

That’s what “us” means.

Vegeta > All mortals.

[GodVegetto91]

That’s not what Whis is saying though. He could know someone stronger than Vegeta and weaker than Goku, given the wide gap between them right now. Goku is specifically asking if there is someone stronger than both. Remember the context is about the strongest warrior in the universe. If the person Goku is asking is only stronger than Vegeta, Whis response wouldn’t be accurate. Your position is certainly one to considerate and makes sense, but it’s not the only one.

Us means Vegeta aswell. You are mistaken. It literally means there is no mortal alive right now stronger than Vegeta. Uub can’t access his latent God Powers afterall.

“Stronger than us” means stronger than Vegeta and (more importantly) Goku.. Whis doesn’t know such a person that meets these two requirements, that’s what he is saying. Let’s wait until Viz publishes the chapter to know if the implication is exactly like you are defending.

The statement/implication by Goku and Whis is: “Nobody is stronger than (Us) Goku and Vegeta.”

This statement is equal to saying: “Everybody is weaker than (Us) Goku and Vegeta..”

So let’s go with the statement “Everybody is weaker” for simplicity’s sake, okay?

If someone that Goku knows, happens to be still stronger than Vegeta.. But weaker than Goku himself.. Then said character is not weaker than “Us”.. But just weaker than Goku.. Because the “Us” definition INCLUDES Vegeta!

[Koitsukai]

While we might need to wait to read the actual chapter instead of a draft page, it's certainly possible that Vegeta has surpassed Broly, after all Prime Moro claimed to be above the gods (pretty vague comment, though, but in tune with the previous enemies), and Geets wasn't that far from him. For that to work, Moro should be much stronger than Broly to fit Vegeta between them.

However, the issue with taking this to heart is that Broly is gratuitously dwarfed. 'Beerus >> Broly' is a given by now, but if Beerus can humilliate the stronger Vegeta without even trying or needing hakai, then that initial comparison now looks like if someone compared Android 16 to SS3 Goku, and that came from Toriyama himself. But it wouldn't be the first time DB craps all over its previous self.

Funny though that people were so meticulously auditing Goku's clear-cut "toughest ever" statement but this comment that's been having several interpretations is now definitive evidence. It could easily be like Cipher said, a non-power related comment and more along the lines of what they are trying to achieve like the context implies, after all Whis is talking about future events. The jury is still out on this one, with his past gains Geets should be at least closing in on that realm, I'd be surprised if he is not.


Also, in what manga chapter were Jiren and Broly compared to claim one is stronger than the other beyond reasonable doubt? I must've missed that.

[GodVegetto91]

While we might need to wait to read the actual chapter instead of a draft page, it's certainly possible that Vegeta has surpassed Broly, after all Prime Moro claimed to be above the gods (pretty vague comment, though, but in tune with the previous enemies), and Geets wasn't that far from him. For that to work, Moro should be much stronger than Broly to fit Vegeta between them.

However, the issue with taking this to heart is that Broly is gratuitously dwarfed. 'Beerus >> Broly' is a given by now, but if Beerus can humilliate the stronger Vegeta without even trying or needing hakai, then that initial comparison now looks like if someone compared Android 16 to SS3 Goku, and that came from Toriyama himself. But it wouldn't be the first time DB craps all over its previous self.

Funny though that people were so meticulously auditing Goku's clear-cut "toughest ever" statement but this comment that's been having several interpretations is now definitive evidence. It could easily be like Cipher said, a non-power related comment and more along the lines of what they are trying to achieve like the context implies, after all Whis is talking about future events. The jury is still out on this one, with his past gains Geets should be at least closing in on that realm, I'd be surprised if he is not.


Also, in what manga chapter were Jiren and Broly compared to claim one is stronger than the other beyond reasonable doubt? I must've missed that.

I mean, that will indeed be the logical resultant/consequence. It’s certainly not the first time though that something like this happened.! Remember SSJ God Goku fighting on equal footing with an almost serious Beerus supposively? 70% lol Now it’s been retconned to where Beerus was logically only using 0.00000000001% of his power. That’s just what happens when you keep scaling a character up like in the case of Lord Beerus. So I certainly believe Prime Moro > SSBE Vegeta > UI Omen Goku >>>>> Broly >>> Jiren & ToP MUI Goku, now xD

I personally have current SSBE Vegeta as > Gogeta Blue from the Broly movie aswell. And while I can’t prove it, I think it’s perfectly within the realm of possibility now that both characters have been confirmed to be above Broly. And since I like things to be simple and in accordance with Occam’s Razor, I am certainly going to assume that right now.