Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No I know he's Blue Tier. The reason behind it is just badly written. He's that strong because they just wanted him to be. So what's to stop someone else from wanting Yamcha to be?

Well Yamcha does call himself the third strongest Earthling in the Moro Saga, so he’s only behind 17 and Gohan now

[Thani]

No I know he's Blue Tier. The reason behind it is just badly written. He's that strong because they just wanted him to be. So what's to stop someone else from wanting Yamcha to be?

Well Yamcha does call himself the third strongest Earthling in the Moro Saga, so he’s only behind 17 and Gohan now

To be fair, I think he was only counting the likes of Krillin, Tien, Roshi, etc.

[ZombieVito]

Freeza already proved that if you are born strong then you are going to get faster gains with little training.

17 was born in the hundreds of millions. Piccolo was born with a power no greater than 260. It makes sense for 17 to be stronger with just training.

Hell, Freeza with just mental training managed to match all the gains Goku did between RoF and the start of the ToP. There's a reason why Vegeta is worried in the Broly movie about Freeza.

[SupremeKai25]

Freeza already proved that if you are born strong then you are going to get faster gains with little training.

17 was born in the hundreds of millions. Piccolo was born with a power no greater than 260. It makes sense for 17 to be stronger with just training.

Hell, Freeza with just mental training managed to match all the gains Goku did between RoF and the start of the ToP. There's a reason why Vegeta is worried in the Broly movie about Freeza.

17 was born as a random earthling thug/criminal/delinquent, No? His power comes from whatever implants Gero gave him, but both him and Lazuli were born as simple civilians. Their strength is not genetic, like Frieza.

In fact, people often pointed out how the power creep in DBZ is stupid. How it's stupid that two earthlings enhanced by some random scientist are far stronger than the Emperor of the Universe.

[Goku9001]

If you're suggesting that Android 17 cannot be Blue tier, then why is his power even relevant here? All Blue tier fighters would simply be unaffected by 17's power. This is just arbitrary. If you acknowledge that Android 17 can be Blue tier, then he realistically can be as powerful as the plot demands him to be. The argument doesn't hold.

No I know he's Blue Tier. The reason behind it is just badly written. He's that strong because they just wanted him to be. So what's to stop someone else from wanting Yamcha to be?

I don't understand your point. None of that disproves 17 simply being way beyond anything in Z.

[Xeno Goku Black]

The point is he's stronger than anyone in Z supposedly and shouldn't be.

[ZombieVito]

17 was born as a random earthling thug/criminal/delinquent, No? His power comes from whatever implants Gero gave him, but both him and Lazuli were born as simple civilians. Their strength is not genetic, like Frieza.

In fact, people often pointed out how the power creep in DBZ is stupid. How it's stupid that two earthlings enhanced by some random scientist are far stronger than the Emperor of the Universe.

They were genetically modified at a celular level. They are essentially reborn as artificial humans.

[Goku9001]

The point is he's stronger than anyone in Z supposedly and shouldn't be.

This is an arbitrary complaint. He should be Blue tier but weaker than Super Vegetto? How are you drawing the line? Both implications are bewildering regardless.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

17 was born as a random earthling thug/criminal/delinquent, No? His power comes from whatever implants Gero gave him, but both him and Lazuli were born as simple civilians. Their strength is not genetic, like Frieza.

In fact, people often pointed out how the power creep in DBZ is stupid. How it's stupid that two earthlings enhanced by some random scientist are far stronger than the Emperor of the Universe.

They were genetically modified at a celular level. They are essentially reborn as artificial humans.

Not to mention that Piccolo apparently had a lot of hidden power to be accessed through wishing it to be so like as though an Elder Namekian were unlocking his potential, despite being one of the most prominent examples of a character stagnating compared to the Saiyans.

Potential is really just up to the whims of Toriyama. The Saiyans keep unlocking more and more of it even though they keep supposedly reaching their limits, so it's really just a matter of whether the method is creative enough for a given character.

[ZombieVito]

Not to mention that Piccolo apparently had a lot of hidden power to be accessed through wishing it to be so like as though an Elder Namekian were unlocking his potential, despite being one of the most prominent examples of a character stagnating compared to the Saiyans.

Potential is really just up to the whims of Toriyama. The Saiyans keep unlocking more and more of it even though they keep supposedly reaching their limits, so it's really just a matter of whether the method is creative enough for a given character.

Piccolo always stayed behind because of transformations. In a fight without them, he would demolish anyone in Z bar Boo. Even in Super after Goku and Vegeta obtained God Ki and trained with Whis for years, Piccolo still managed to catch up to their base forms just by training with Ultimate Gohan for a day.

Shenron's potential unlock simply brought forth the transformations he didn't know existed.

[Xeno Goku Black]

This is an arbitrary complaint. He should be Blue tier but weaker than Super Vegetto? How are you drawing the line? Both implications are bewildering regardless.

No.....he shouldn't be as strong as either. Him being Blue Tier makes him above God Tier which apparently is superior to a possible Super Saiyan 3 Vegito from Z.

That should not be a thing. It is a thing because they just wanted it to be but it's still bad writing.

[Goku9001]

This is an arbitrary complaint. He should be Blue tier but weaker than Super Vegetto? How are you drawing the line? Both implications are bewildering regardless.

No.....he shouldn't be as strong as either. Him being Blue Tier makes him above God Tier which apparently is superior to a possible Super Saiyan 3 Vegito from Z.

That should not be a thing. It is a thing because they just wanted it to be but it's still bad writing.

What is your solution? Both are ridiculous so you are arbitrarily drawing a line to see what the most ridiculous level you can place Android 17 at without it feeling too large to you. That's completely subjective.

The point is, it doesn't make sense and the writers even acknowledge it when Goku claims that Android 17 is nearly as powerful as him without doing anything. Toyotaro expects us to take the narrative as it is. Super Saiyan God was presented as something far beyond any fusion up until that point. Goku goes on to claim that "this power is far beyond my imagination" which is reinforced in both the anime and movie which explicitly places God way beyond fusion. Forget about Android 17 for a moment. What is the argument against this?

[Hugo Boss]

No. 17’s strength in Super is just one more of those occasions in which you apply suspension of disbelief.

You can say that he was genetically enhanced by bioengineering process, as he was constructed with main focus on power, contrary to No. 18, who was handicapped, but still was too powerful. Also, he doesn’t tire out, sets and cycles aren’t a thing for him, he doesn’t need to worry about risking his body in an exercise. We don’t know if this ability has a limit or how much time he needed to reach this level of strength, but you can tell his routine is pretty much beating poachers or taming wild creatures. At least we have an idea of what he did. With Freeza there wasn’t any (the anime only suggested he made torture simulations and/or mental training).

Besides, there is a interview with Producer Hiroyuki Sakurada in which he says “#17 didn't have many fights in the original story nor in the anime up until now. Apparently, Akira Toriyama didn't have the opportunity to display his strength but he is also giving his approval, saying #17 has great potential”. So, this idea doesn’t come out of the blue. Now imagine what kind of potential characters like Cell and Boo would have if they were still alive.

Super Saiyan God was presented as something far beyond any fusion up until that point. Goku goes on to claim that "this power is far beyond my imagination" which is reinforced in both the anime and movie which explicitly places God way beyond fusion. Forget about Android 17 for a moment. What is the argument against this?

Just a quick note that I think was missed somewhere in the middle of this debate. This implication is only presented in the extended version of the movie and in the anime. The original version of the movie and the manga don’t outline specifically that SSG is stronger than fusion. Though there is no problem in assuming that, I think this needs clarification.

[Xeno Goku Black]

What is your solution?

That there was no need to make him that strong. They could have still made him a powerful and integral part of the team without going so over board. Him being that strong didn't really amount to anything significant anyway. He eliminated a lot of lesser opponents. Doesn't need to be as strong as Blue for that.

What is the argument against this?

Sorry what is the argument against what exactly? That Super Saiyan God shouldn't be as strong as Fusion?

[omaro34]

How strong is Orange Piccolo compared to previous arcs/characters in Super?

[ZombieVito]

How strong is Orange Piccolo compared to previous arcs/characters in Super?

We can't really know for sure but we can assume that Cell Max is around UI level thanks to Gohan's comment so Orange Piccolo should be a level or two below that since he managed to fight him (without eating a Senzu bean btw) and not get one shotted.

[BWri]

He's been taming 7 creatures that survived SS2 Gohan's rage for like a decade.

I always wondered how he survived his first encounter with a Cell Jr to live long enough to tame all seven. Vegeta and Trunks held their own against a Cell Jr each and wouldn't have lasted more than a few seconds if all seven ganged up on them.

That idea was only in the manga so Toriyama might've intended for it to be more of a joke or subversion. When GT brought back 17, he needed to fuse with another version of himself built by two mad scientists and absorb energy to stand a chance against Goku's strongest form. Fans would expect a returning character to have a crazy explanation to justify catching up after missing out on several arcs so the joke could be that 17 got that powerful while barely trying.

My headcannon was always that #17 inherited some of Cells power or potential when he was wished back due to being assimilated with him for so long (or perhaps even permanently fused with him). Since he and Cell fused on a cellular level, it would make sense that he'd retain some of Cell's strength or potential.

[Goku9001]

What is your solution?

That there was no need to make him that strong. They could have still made him a powerful and integral part of the team without going so over board. Him being that strong didn't really amount to anything significant anyway. He eliminated a lot of lesser opponents. Doesn't need to be as strong as Blue for that.

What is the argument against this?

Sorry what is the argument against what exactly? That Super Saiyan God shouldn't be as strong as Fusion?

I'm confused here. If you think Android 17 isn't Blue tier, then how does his placement affect the relative power of Super Saiyan Blue? There's an inconsistency here.

Super Saiyan God was presented as something far beyond any fusion up until that point. Goku goes on to claim that "this power is far beyond my imagination" which is reinforced in both the anime and movie which explicitly places God way beyond fusion. Forget about Android 17 for a moment. What is the argument against this?

Just a quick note that I think was missed somewhere in the middle of this debate. This implication is only presented in the extended version of the movie and in the anime. The original version of the movie and the manga don’t outline specifically that SSG is stronger than fusion. Though there is no problem in assuming that, I think this needs clarification.

Absolutely, I did read your post and fully acknowledge that. I reference the extended version specifically because it was included in the script but had to be omitted to make room for the theatrical release, but your point is a fair one to consider. In the case of the manga, I agree that it's only something that can be inferred based on a vague statement made by Goku.

[Xeno Goku Black]

I'm confused here. If you think Android 17 isn't Blue tier, then how does his placement affect the relative power of Super Saiyan Blue? There's an inconsistency here.

I think you've got mixed up here somehow. I DO think Android 17 is Super Saiyan Blue tier.

It just does not make sense that he is.

[Xeno Goku Black]

So how strong is Buu now? He had his latent potential unlocked during the Moro arc after all.

He's obviously far stronger than Super Saiyan God because he made Moro look like a chump who in turn was too much for Super Saiyan God Vegeta.

However he's not as strong as Super Saiyan Blue either considering he was later far outmatched by the powered up Moro and Goku and Vegeta said hey we're still stronger than him.

But within that gap where would be place amongst Legendary Super Saiyan Kefla and Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black and Android 17?