Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

I think that can easily be solved by just having Moro use UI, instead of having an actual boost in power overall. He didn't get stronger when he copied Vegeta, after all.

I think Moro-73 works fine as just being Prime Moro plus a slight boost from 7-3. Prime Moro was already pretty strong already, and only lost to Vegeta because he was unaware of Spirit Fission. Moro-73 can be like 10% stronger or less and still manhandle Vegeta by just, this time, being careful to not allow his foe any hits.

Moro got stronger. He went from literally breaking his arm on Goku’s chest to being able to hurt him. You can’t handwave that with just moving on your own.

Moro more or less said that wasn’t a slight boost when he ate 73.

Considering that moment was explained away by Whis as "the body hardening on it's own", then I think you actually can. It's a gimmick of Ultra Instinct more than a raw power thing. You can even argue that Angel Moro, because of UI, could strike with much greater force because his body was moving on it's own (and indeed it's also UI works), enough to cause damage to Goku. Like Jiren said about UI, it's greatest strength might not even be raw power, but the capacity to punch way above your weight class.

Not necessarily. Whis and Beerus both refer to Ultra Instinct as the transformation that Goku uses. The distinction between the transformation and the technique isn't even made until the beginning of the Moro Arc. Aside from that, the only advantage Ultra Instinct confers is the ability to move autonomously which allows one to react faster and more effectively. That was the only thing Granolah had mentioned when he notices Goku's ability to move autonomously. This idea about "punching harder than you can" or "body hardening" being directly associated with Ultra Instinct is purely headcanon and not supported. All Whis' statement suggests that Goku reactions were sharper because he had mastered Ultra Instinct which enables him fortify his body autonomously whereas that wouldn't have been possible before. This isn't a reference to his overall defenses but the way his body can respond to a situation.

We know Moro powered up because Goku explicitly powers up in Perfected Ultra Instinct. Whis mentions this to Goku in the Granolah arc. Moro undergoes the same transformation as Goku does and makes it a point to state that their abilities are equal when competing in a footrace with Goku. This was after already establishing that his body can move on its own like Goku's can. His ability to react on instinct and his abilities now matching up to Goku are considered two different things. Moro blatantly did power up.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

So how do you think Jiren and Belmod compares to characters from the current arcs and Beerus?

Well, there's a lot to unpack here.

Jiren is an interesting case in that being from a different universe effectively makes him outside the purview of Granolah's wish, and he managed to force Goku out of a very calm (and calmer = better) UI. However, that's only because UI Goku's stamina drainage was too much to consistently keep up with Jiren's increased speed and strength, and as Whis said, he hadn't trained enough to wield it properly yet. By the next arc's climax, he's much more proficient at using it; that plot point is made exceedingly clear through his fight against UI Moro. Moro was also called Goku's toughest opponent ever at the time, for whatever that's worth.

Hence, Gas > Granolah > Moro > Jiren is probably the most straightforward, DB-like reading of his standing relative to other antagonists. That doesn't mean that Jiren's strength isn't still relevant in its own right, given his "immeasurable potential" and unique fighting style briefly mentioned in the manga and expounded upon in Super Hero. But power-wise, he's only ever mentioned to be stronger than Belmod.

As for Belmod, well... he's just Belmod. It's pretty heavily implied during the Universe Survival arc's exhibition match that Beerus is comfortably stronger than his fellow Gods of Destruction, with the exception of his rival Quitela. Belmod made it to the end of that match by playing possum, though you could argue his performance outstripped a lot of the other GoDs. Beerus told Vegeta just a chapter earlier that he could pass for a God of Destruction candidate in a different universe, so even back then, there was already precedence for the idea that not all GoDs are equal.

Thus, it's probably the case that Beerus is stronger than both Jiren and Belmod to a considerable degree. Beerus is ultimately still a big fat mystery, though, given Super's comparisons with Blue Vegetto and Broly. This kind of thing really is up to the whims of the writers, I think, but it's clear that they want to leave him as this ambiguous goalpost for now.

So what do you make of Jiren being stated to surpass all Gods, not just Belmod in the Universe survival arc promo for the manga? Jiren's portrayal would appear the same throughout the manga and anime. To be honest I'd rather not claim retcon and if there is a way to make it work Jiren>Gods in general work, I'd think it would be best to go with that.

There was also official manga promo on the dragon ball website where the list of rivals that Goku surpassed with UI was shown and Beerus was on there along with Jiren, Zamasu and Moro. Then the Granolah arc comes along and Goku is stated to be below Beerus. So there's definitely a circle that needs to be squared here and it's not just a case of Jiren only being above Belmod and Beerus being>>>>>Belmod. The "Uncalm UI" angle would be a way of doing that without throwing previous narrative statements and implications in the garbage.

[ZombieVito]

Broly > Cell max that was defeated Makes sense to me.

The interviews are lining up with everything in the movie. Cell max was not that much stronger than piccolo, so if Piccolo rivals Goku, then adding Vegeta to the mix would make it so that it is inconclusive as to whether they could have defeated cell max, which is what Gohan stated.

Broly > Cell max > Piccolo/Goku/Vegeta > Gohan

Completed Cell max > Broly is wild. What a hypothetical that would have been.

Gohan Blanco was definitive stronger than Cell max, but I honestly don’t know how he would compare to GoD Level characters.

Cell Max was already completed in the movie. Only thing that was missing was the control program.

[Xeno Goku Black]

That and why would Toriyama write a line that has no basics at all?

Hype. Toriyama also wrote that Beerus used 70% of his power against Goku in Battle of Gods.

He wrote that Goku and Vegeta working together could Beerus a run for his money.

He wrote that Super Saiyan Blue was essentially just what happens when they go Super Saiyan.

It's all changed since.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

As far as comparing Gohan and Piccolo to Goku and Vegeta now, we have to remember that there's almost certainly an intention to differentiate in what states.

In terms of regular usage forms, I believe that Orange Piccolo is meant to embody that part, being equivalent to Goku and Vegeta in normal forms like SSB and the SSB upgrades.

Ultimate Gohan and Ultimate Piccolo, based on how they compared to Goku and Vegeta previously, seem to rest close to SSB but not quite there. Given how drawing equivalences is common practice nowadays in modern DBS, I think comparing their Ultimate forms to SSG works pretty well.

[Hugo Boss]

Ultimate Gohan and Ultimate Piccolo, based on how they compared to Goku and Vegeta previously, seem to rest close to SSB but not quite there. Given how drawing equivalences is common practice nowadays in modern DBS, I think comparing their Ultimate forms to SSG works pretty well.

Agreed.

I’m personally not fond of the idea of comparing Super Hero characters with Super manga and anime’s ones, but if I had to make a guess, I would say Orange Piccolo is a movie version of Toppo. Despite their buff design, they are pretty even with Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms. At one occasion, Toppo was also capable of handling by himself Ultimate Gohan and No.17, which in my opinion is a pretty good spot for Orange Piccolo’s placement.

About Cell Max vs. Broly, I think the implication is that as he is right now Broly wouldn’t be able to beat Cell Max as a completed warrior, thus suggesting they have similar battle power. The one that lands the decisive blow would win. Broly needs training to properly control his power as well, so this is probably why Toriyama makes this statement.

In another hand, I don’t see how Cell Max would defeat Silver Gohan even if he was a completed warrior. I have seen some footages of their fight and Gohan didn’t even budge after taking Cell hits. That’s a huge gap. So, this seems to me a confirmation that Gohan surpassed Broly as well.

Broly vs. Ultra Instinct / Ultra Ego / Gas / Granolah / Moro / Beerus is a fruitless discussion in my current stance, as there are a lot of oddities to adjust.

[Mr Baggins]

So what do you make of Jiren being stated to surpass all Gods, not just Belmod in the Universe survival arc promo for the manga?

There was also official manga promo on the dragon ball website where the list of rivals that Goku surpassed with UI was shown and Beerus was on there along with Jiren, Zamasu and Moro.

While I'm generally a lot less keen to give as much weight to promotional material as the source material, I actually wasn't aware of either of those. Do you have a screenshot, or an official link?

To be clear, I think the chain you posted earlier is a possible reading. It's just odd to square away, given the escalatory nature of the manga and how UI Goku seemed fine/calm at the start of the arc, yet was still implied to be below Beerus. Jiren is only compared to Belmod, Beerus is implied to be the cream of the crop for his position, and Goku has improved his UI with more training (although I agree last chapter's UI is heavily nerfed in comparison, given his current emotional circumstances); I'd think there are less headaches associated with viewing Beerus as a mysterious goalpost rather than a long surpassed one.

Of course, it's also possible that Beerus is a moving goalpost. Toriyama has done that before even without Toyotaro's involvement, and he still heavily supervises the manga according to Super Hero's director. That's a very retcon-y stance, however.

Broly vs. Ultra Instinct / Ultra Ego / Gas / Granolah / Moro / Beerus is a fruitless discussion in my current stance, as there are a lot of oddities to adjust.

The biggest oddity of all is Granolah's/Gas's wish to be the strongest in the universe, probably. You'd have to assume that Broly's FP power is something he can't use at will, which isn't impossible, to be fair.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Broly > Cell max that was defeated Makes sense to me.

The interviews are lining up with everything in the movie. Cell max was not that much stronger than piccolo, so if Piccolo rivals Goku, then adding Vegeta to the mix would make it so that it is inconclusive as to whether they could have defeated cell max, which is what Gohan stated.

Broly > Cell max > Piccolo/Goku/Vegeta > Gohan

Completed Cell max > Broly is wild. What a hypothetical that would have been.

Gohan Blanco was definitive stronger than Cell max, but I honestly don’t know how he would compare to GoD Level characters.

Cell Max was already completed in the movie. Only thing that was missing was the control program.

Then the missing program made him weaker than he would have been. I’m not the one saying he isn’t completed, it is toriyama himself.

And the power gap seems big too. If piccolo Naranja is only
A rival to Goku, and Cell max wasn’t that much stronger than him, then that missing program gives him a huge power boost to be able to surpass Broly.

[HeroR]

That and why would Toriyama write a line that has no basics at all?

Hype. Toriyama also wrote that Beerus used 70% of his power against Goku in Battle of Gods.

He wrote that Goku and Vegeta working together could Beerus a run for his money.

He wrote that Super Saiyan Blue was essentially just what happens when they go Super Saiyan.

It's all changed since.

Except Toriyama double down on the Broly line in the movie. And Toriyama said Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan with god ki. That never changed. Fans just assumed regular Super Saiyan was gone.

[Koitsukai]

I think the safest way to accomodate all of this is to fully accept that manga, anime and movies are three completely differente stories.

In the anime, Broly is Kale.
In the movies, Broly is on Beerus' level.
In the manga, Broly was already surpassed by Moro73, on top of the wishes granted later on.

It is possible that Broly's FP wasn't taken into account just like UI wasn't before the Moro arc, although that would be a big loophole of the wish, but several times it was implied Broly was no longer relevant.
Aside of Goku putting Moro73 at the top, who should be including the FP, Whis mentioned he didn't know anybody that could surpass Goku and Vegeta, the wishes just keep on coming, and there's also that interview of Toyo saying that the 3 strongest in the universe were duking it out in Cereal-sei.
Goes for Jiren as well, his power is not that impressive apparently, he is more of an incredibly skilled figher in the movie continuity, while being that and also a powerhouse in manga and anime.


Also, Toriyama had no idea DBS already had the word Super on it, when he came up with Super Hero. This could mean he is not that invested and just yeah-yeah-nice-bye-ing Toyo in the manga and not even knowing the name of the manga, or that he actually is fully on board and nobody dares contradict him, not even when he comes out with something as redundant to himself as DB SUPER SUPER HERO. It could explain having all these unnecessary discrepancies.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Except Toriyama double down on the Broly line in the movie.

When?

And Toriyama said Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan with god ki. That never changed. Fans just assumed regular Super Saiyan was gone.

It was meant to be that when a Saiyan with God Ki transformed into a Super Saiyan then they were just blue now.

Super Saiyan God wasn't a thing anymore by Resurrection F. Toriyama said there was no need for then to become that anymore.

Yet it appeared in Broly. Things change.

[ZombieVito]

Then the missing program made him weaker than he would have been. I’m not the one saying he isn’t completed, it is toriyama himself.

And the power gap seems big too. If piccolo Naranja is only
A rival to Goku, and Cell max wasn’t that much stronger than him, then that missing program gives him a huge power boost to be able to surpass Broly.

The movie never even says this. Hedo only says Cell Max will be uncontrollable. Never weaker, his body is complete.

Hell, Toriyama's comment doesn't even say he would be weaker.

[Berserker1921]

I think people are taking this too seriously. Toriyama is trying to hype his own movie. Trying to sell tickets. I wouldn’t take what he says as canon.

Also piccolo being on par with Goku? Which form of Goku? Maybe he meant making piccolo relevant. Not making them equal in power but make piccolo in the same area as the saiyans?

And didn’t they say if Cell Max was finished. He would be a threat to Broly? But he wasn’t finished. From what I heard of spoilers and other stuff. He was taken out of the chamber too soon. This why he was malfunctioning. I remember reading another translation was if he finished. He would be perfect.

I doubt current Cell Max could defeat broly or Goku or Vegeta.

As I see this. This is just a way to hype up the movie.

Goku, Vegeta, Broly>=<Gohan>Cell Max>=<Piccolo

Edit: What I meant to say above is that we shouldn’t take this as canon. I meant we shouldn’t take these statements that are meant to hype up the film seriously. This happens every movie and every arc. I just meant let’s take these statements with a grain of salt.

[ZombieVito]

I think people are taking this too seriously. Toriyama is trying to hype his own movie. Trying to sell tickets. I wouldn’t take what he says as canon.

He's the creator of the fucking series.

Christ...

[Xeno Goku Black]

If Orange Piccolo is as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku then Cell Max can't be that powerful.

Stack him up the anime series and the guy is maybe weaker than Agnilasa.

[Berserker1921]

I think people are taking this too seriously. Toriyama is trying to hype his own movie. Trying to sell tickets. I wouldn’t take what he says as canon.

He's the creator of the fucking series.

Christ...

And he said the exact same thing about Broly and Frieza movies. If we want too, we can go back to when he talked about Cell and said he was unstoppable. What I am getting at this all hype for the movie. This isn’t something we should argue about.

[HeroR]

Except Toriyama double down on the Broly line in the movie.

When?

And Toriyama said Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan with god ki. That never changed. Fans just assumed regular Super Saiyan was gone.

It was meant to be that when a Saiyan with God Ki transformed into a Super Saiyan then they were just blue now.

Super Saiyan God wasn't a thing anymore by Resurrection F. Toriyama said there was no need for then to become that anymore.

Yet it appeared in Broly. Things change.

Statements from Goku along with weariness Beerus showed towards Broly.

As I said, Super Saiyan with god Ki makes Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. That never changed. Toriyama also never said there was no need for Super Saiyan God. He said there was no need for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 since they were just extensions Super Saiyan.

[HeroR]

I think people are taking this too seriously. Toriyama is trying to hype his own movie. Trying to sell tickets. I wouldn’t take what he says as canon.

He's the creator of the fucking series.

Christ...

And he said the exact same thing about Broly and Frieza movies. If we want too, we can go back to when he talked about Cell and said he was unstoppable. What I am getting at this all hype for the movie. This isn’t something we should argue about.

Toriyama’s word is canon until he changes his mind. You cannot dismiss his word because it doesn’t fit your power scaling.

[Berserker1921]

He's the creator of the fucking series.

Christ...

And he said the exact same thing about Broly and Frieza movies. If we want too, we can go back to when he talked about Cell and said he was unstoppable. What I am getting at this all hype for the movie. This isn’t something we should argue about.

Toriyama’s word is canon until he changes his mind. You cannot dismiss his word because it doesn’t fit your power scaling.

What I meant is we shouldn’t go crazy about this. And that this is meant to hype up the film more then anything else. Like previous statements in the past.

[HeroR]

And he said the exact same thing about Broly and Frieza movies. If we want too, we can go back to when he talked about Cell and said he was unstoppable. What I am getting at this all hype for the movie. This isn’t something we should argue about.

Toriyama’s word is canon until he changes his mind. You cannot dismiss his word because it doesn’t fit your power scaling.

What I meant is we shouldn’t go crazy about this. And that this is meant to hype up the film more then anything else. Like previous statements in the past.

There’s nothing crazy about it. Cell Max > Broly. Cell just didn’t have a mind to actually use his power properly, similar to Broly when he goes nuts.

People said the same thing about Broly only for Toriyama’s in Super Hero to reconfirm that Broly might be stronger than Beerus given how Beerus acted around Broly. And the film itself hinted that Goku and Vegeta may not been able to beat Cell Max, so this didn’t come out of nowhere.

It’s tiring how this fanbase is just willing to dismiss statements even by Toriyama as ‘hype’ all because they don’t want to believe someone is that strong.

If Orange Piccolo is as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku then Cell Max can't be that powerful.

Stack him up the anime series and the guy is maybe weaker than Agnilasa.

That makes little sense since Broly was stronger than two Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans years ago and nothing in the movie suggest that Goku or Vegeta are stronger than Broly.

And Cell died to Special Beam Cannon, a move that hits above its weight class, and he had a self-destruction butterfly in his head.

I think the safest way to accomodate all of this is to fully accept that manga, anime and movies are three completely differente stories.

In the anime, Broly is Kale.
In the movies, Broly is on Beerus' level.
In the manga, Broly was already surpassed by Moro73, on top of the wishes granted later on.

It is possible that Broly's FP wasn't taken into account just like UI wasn't before the Moro arc, although that would be a big loophole of the wish, but several times it was implied Broly was no longer relevant.
Aside of Goku putting Moro73 at the top, who should be including the FP, Whis mentioned he didn't know anybody that could surpass Goku and Vegeta, the wishes just keep on coming, and there's also that interview of Toyo saying that the 3 strongest in the universe were duking it out in Cereal-sei.
Goes for Jiren as well, his power is not that impressive apparently, he is more of an incredibly skilled figher in the movie continuity, while being that and also a powerhouse in manga and anime.


Also, Toriyama had no idea DBS already had the word Super on it, when he came up with Super Hero. This could mean he is not that invested and just yeah-yeah-nice-bye-ing Toyo in the manga and not even knowing the name of the manga, or that he actually is fully on board and nobody dares contradict him, not even when he comes out with something as redundant to himself as DB SUPER SUPER HERO. It could explain having all these unnecessary discrepancies.

Why would Broly be Kale in the anime?

And the movie never said Jiren’s power wasn’t impressive since everything said Jiren was as strong as a God of Destruction. All the movie did was put more context that Jiren was overwhelming not just he was powerful, but because he was highly skilled. Goku even put Jiren next to Broly when talking about powerful guys.