Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I think you can reasonably combine this with the manga without too many hiccups. You'd probably end up with something like Broly > Cell Max > UI Goku > UE Vegeta > Orange Piccolo, which is fine. Broly was already compared to Beerus and I don't remember anything particularly implying he'd lose to Goku at full power.

The only oddity would be Goku calling Moro his toughest opponent, but meh. You can handwave it.

I think the whole Granolah arc makes it a little difficult to scale things this way, as has been said above.

I mean, maybe you could work around it. I saw some people claiming that Broly wasn't being taken into account in the wish because Toronbo couldn't make Granolah stronger than the Gods even condensing his potential. Since in theory, Broly would be stronger than Beerus, a GoD, he would be out of the equation. It's a possibility but I'm not sure if I agree with that since even in the Moro arc you have Goku attributing Moro as the strongest guy he's ever faced, and in the Granolah arc Whis himself says he didn't think of anyone stronger than Goku or Vegeta on U7. So unless at the end of the arc Oracle Fish shows up saying that the strongest is actually Broly, and Goku / Vegeta / Whis shows up saying they forgot about Broly, I honestly have no problem putting him below the top 4 (Goku / Vegeta / Granolah / Gas) in the manga continuity, besides whatever the movie thinks of him. The same goes for Jiren

Regarding Cell Max, I think it remains to be seen if he will be mentioned in any way that alludes to his power in the manga. If not, I guess wr will have to see how Gohan and Piccolo are portrayed in the manga to try to scale him

[HeroR]

He wasn’t a threat to the universe. And frieza lasted for an hour. Whis took over a minute or two after Freeza’s beating. And gogeta arrived. Had it been the case of them needing fusion was put down Goku quickly. I mean whis wouldn’t reverse time again. Especially because of what happened after the Goku black saga So, they needed to act quickly or else it would be like RoF again. And Broly accidentally destroys the planet.

King Vegeta called Broly a universal threat and then later Broly's father said 'King Vegeta was right' after Broly went out of control in just Wrath. Not to mention Broly was breaking dimensions when he was fighting Super Saiyan Gogeta.

Then it wasn't an hour if Whis had to step in. And it wasn't quick since it took an hour.

Would Whis reverse time? He has only done it once for Goku and the Future Trunks was to save a Supreme Kai.

An hour isn't acting quickly, especially in Dragon Ball time where Frieza and Goku fought for five minutes.

[Xeno Goku Black]

If we mix this movie in with the anime, do we have to put Orange Piccolo on the same level as Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken X20 and Super Saiyan Blue Evolved then?

He rivals Goku. You can probably not count Ultra Instinct because forgetting the manga entirely that could have been a one off the whole time but the Kaioken is still a thing.

So it would put Orange Piccolo in the same ballpark as a God of Destruction Top or so.

Then if Cell Max is meant to almost up there with a Broly then it would make better sense why Orange Piccolo didn't completely embarrass himself.

[ZombieVito]

If we mix this movie in with the anime, do we have to put Orange Piccolo on the same level as Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken X20 and Super Saiyan Blue Evolved then?

He rivals Goku. You can probably not count Ultra Instinct because forgetting the manga entirely that could have been a one off the whole time but the Kaioken is still a thing.

So it would put Orange Piccolo in the same ballpark as a God of Destruction Top or so.

Then if Cell Max is meant to almost up there with a Broly then it would make better sense why Orange Piccolo didn't completely embarrass himself.

UI level.

Cell Max > Broly so Orange Piccolo must not be that far off of Broly since he stood up to Cell Max.

[Berserker1921]

He wasn’t a threat to the universe. And frieza lasted for an hour. Whis took over a minute or two after Freeza’s beating. And gogeta arrived. Had it been the case of them needing fusion was put down Goku quickly. I mean whis wouldn’t reverse time again. Especially because of what happened after the Goku black saga So, they needed to act quickly or else it would be like RoF again. And Broly accidentally destroys the planet.

King Vegeta called Broly a universal threat and then later Broly's father said 'King Vegeta was right' after Broly went out of control in just Wrath. Not to mention Broly was breaking dimensions when he was fighting Super Saiyan Gogeta.

Then it wasn't an hour if Whis had to step in. And it wasn't quick since it took an hour.

Would Whis reverse time? He has only done it once for Goku and the Future Trunks was to save a Supreme Kai.

An hour isn't acting quickly, especially in Dragon Ball time where Frieza and Goku fought for five minutes.

Well, they kept him distracted. I think that’s what Goku was hoping for. That Frieza would distract Broly long enough for them to recover.

In the movie he asks piccolo if he had senzu beans. Which means he felt confident to go back into there to fight Broly if he was fresh. Had piccolo had some beans, they wouldn’t have fused and took their chances to take on Broly.

[Berserker1921]

If we mix this movie in with the anime, do we have to put Orange Piccolo on the same level as Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken X20 and Super Saiyan Blue Evolved then?

He rivals Goku. You can probably not count Ultra Instinct because forgetting the manga entirely that could have been a one off the whole time but the Kaioken is still a thing.

So it would put Orange Piccolo in the same ballpark as a God of Destruction Top or so.

Then if Cell Max is meant to almost up there with a Broly then it would make better sense why Orange Piccolo didn't completely embarrass himself.

UI level.

Cell Max > Broly so Orange Piccolo must not be that far off of Broly since he stood up to Cell Max.

I don’t think cell max was ui level. It said he could have defeated Broly had he had his mind or mental facilities finished.

Which goes back to where I HeroR, that when they spoke about jiren and why he was so dangerous, was because he was had perfected his ki and mental abilities to the point of it boosting him to GoD levels. I think what Toriyama was saying that if cell had control over his mind he would be like jiren. Punching above his weight class.

[ZombieVito]

I don’t think cell max was ui level. It said he could have defeated Broly had he had his mind or mental facilities finished.

Which goes back to where I HeroR, that when they spoke about jiren and why he was so dangerous, was because he was had perfected his ki and mental abilities to the point of it boosting him to GoD levels. I think what Toriyama was saying that if cell had control over his mind he would be like jiren. Punching above his weight class.

Cell Max's power is the same regardless if his mental program is finished or not.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Not necessarily, a characters mental state plays a large part in their power as was made clear in the same film with Jiren.

[Berserker1921]

I don’t think cell max was ui level. It said he could have defeated Broly had he had his mind or mental facilities finished.

Which goes back to where I HeroR, that when they spoke about jiren and why he was so dangerous, was because he was had perfected his ki and mental abilities to the point of it boosting him to GoD levels. I think what Toriyama was saying that if cell had control over his mind he would be like jiren. Punching above his weight class.

Cell Max's power is the same regardless if his mental program is finished or not.

But he can’t access it if he is in berserk all the time. Possibly like Kale, you need to control yourself to access your full potential. This wouldn’t be new for toriyama. Kind of like what happened with Ginyu and black when they took goku’s body. They couldn’t access his full power. Sort of like what’s happening with Cell. He should have a power greater than Broly. But can’t access it because he can’t concentrate.

[Goku9001]

He wasn’t a threat to the universe. And frieza lasted for an hour. Whis took over a minute or two after Freeza’s beating. And gogeta arrived. Had it been the case of them needing fusion was put down Goku quickly. I mean whis wouldn’t reverse time again. Especially because of what happened after the Goku black saga So, they needed to act quickly or else it would be like RoF again. And Broly accidentally destroys the planet.

King Vegeta called Broly a universal threat and then later Broly's father said 'King Vegeta was right' after Broly went out of control in just Wrath. Not to mention Broly was breaking dimensions when he was fighting Super Saiyan Gogeta.

Then it wasn't an hour if Whis had to step in. And it wasn't quick since it took an hour.

Would Whis reverse time? He has only done it once for Goku and the Future Trunks was to save a Supreme Kai.

An hour isn't acting quickly, especially in Dragon Ball time where Frieza and Goku fought for five minutes.

Well, they kept him distracted. I think that’s what Goku was hoping for. That Frieza would distract Broly long enough for them to recover.

In the movie he asks piccolo if he had senzu beans. Which means he felt confident to go back into there to fight Broly if he was fresh. Had piccolo had some beans, they wouldn’t have fused and took their chances to take on Broly.

Not necessarily. Goku was ready to leave in a hurry to help Gohan against Buutenks and Elder Kaioshin scolded him for being hasty and jumping in without a plan. That stopped Goku and gave him a moment to think.

Goku didn't really have a plan. He merely left for Piccolo on a whim. Since Vegeta's clothes were completely torn and landed on his ass once they teleported to Piccolo's after a brief encounter with Broly tells us that they wouldn't last long.

Let's also not forget that in the novelization, Frieza believes no one in existence could stop Broly which would at least suggest that the strongest mortals in Universe 7 couldn't stop him.

[ZombieVito]

But he can’t access it if he is in berserk all the time. Possibly like Kale, you need to control yourself to access your full potential. This wouldn’t be new for toriyama. Kind of like what happened with Ginyu and black when they took goku’s body. They couldn’t access his full power. Sort of like what’s happening with Cell. He should have a power greater than Broly. But can’t access it because he can’t concentrate.

Ginyu and Black's cases are completely different. They couldn't use the full power of their new body because... It was a new body. They need to get used to it.

Kale, Broly and Cell Max can use their full power without issues. The problem is that they are mindless because they go berserk so they can't fight properly.



Goku does say in the film that Broly is getting better when talking about him going berserk so that's probably what would give him the edge in his hypothetical fight with the stronger (But still mindless) Cell Max.

[Berserker1921]

But he can’t access it if he is in berserk all the time. Possibly like Kale, you need to control yourself to access your full potential. This wouldn’t be new for toriyama. Kind of like what happened with Ginyu and black when they took goku’s body. They couldn’t access his full power. Sort of like what’s happening with Cell. He should have a power greater than Broly. But can’t access it because he can’t concentrate.

Ginyu and Black's cases are completely different. They couldn't use the full power of their new body because... It was a new body. They need to get used to it.

Kale, Broly and Cell Max can use their full power without issues. The problem is that they are mindless because they go berserk so they can't fight properly.



Goku does say in the film that Broly is getting better when talking about him going berserk so that's probably what would give him the edge in his hypothetical fight with the stronger (But still mindless) Cell Max.

They said if he fights calmly and learn his lessons. He can beat most opponents. But cell isn’t stronger than Broly R that state. It’s what they said with Jiren. Why introduce that statement if it isn’t relevant to what he has been saying.

https://ibb.co/4s2vcHb

[Thani]

Didn't Tori said that IF Cell Max was complete, then even Broly wouldn't be able to defeat him? Meaning he wasn't complete in the movie, and thus Broly would be able to defeat him.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s interesting the question above is if Broly can beat Goku, and the answer is basically no at his current level of training. So, it seems self-control plays a big factor on these hypothetical fights.

[Berserker1921]

It’s interesting the question above is if Broly can beat Goku, and the answer is basically no at his current level of training. So, it seems self-control plays a big factor on these hypothetical fights.

Self control and ki control allows someone to fight above their weight class. This why jiren was so dangerous. He was a ssjb to omen tier who can challenge ui/god tier opponents.

[Mr Baggins]

The point of the blurb posted above is that FP Broly starts out stronger than Goku (it notes that he can fight evenly with Gogeta) but then degrades in prowess over time as he loses self-control. It's no different than Kale's gimmick in the manga, despite Broly being stronger than Kale.

Also, it's from a recent V Jump guide that only references the original manga, the Super manga, and the Super movies, and is one of several articles that specifically places the manga and DBS films in the same continuity/timeline.

[ZombieVito]

Didn't Tori said that IF Cell Max was complete, then even Broly wouldn't be able to defeat him? Meaning he wasn't complete in the movie, and thus Broly would be able to defeat him.

His body is complete. Hedo says so himself in the movie.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So from what I’m gathering it’s…

Final Gohan >>> Cell MAX > Broly >= Beerus >=< UI Goku >> Orange Piccolo >>> Gammas ~ Ultimate Piccolo ~ Ultimate Gohan ~ SSJB Goku/Vegeta?

Piccolo is probably comparable to SSJBE Vegeta and either KKx20 or UI Sign Goku depending on the continuity.

[ZombieVito]

So from what I’m gathering it’s…

Final Gohan >>> Cell MAX > Broly >= Beerus >=< UI Goku >> Orange Piccolo >>> Gammas ~ Ultimate Piccolo ~ Ultimate Gohan ~ SSJB Goku/Vegeta?

Piccolo is probably comparable to SSJBE Vegeta and either KKx20 or UI Sign Goku depending on the continuity.

Do you honestly see SSBE Vegeta or SSB KKx20 lasting that long against Cell Max? I don't lol. No way.

P.S. Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Ultimate Piccolo.

[Berserker1921]

So from what I’m gathering it’s…

Final Gohan >>> Cell MAX > Broly >= Beerus >=< UI Goku >> Orange Piccolo >>> Gammas ~ Ultimate Piccolo ~ Ultimate Gohan ~ SSJB Goku/Vegeta?

Piccolo is probably comparable to SSJBE Vegeta and either KKx20 or UI Sign Goku depending on the continuity.

Do you honestly see SSBE Vegeta or SSB KKx20 lasting that long against Cell Max? I don't lol. No way.

P.S. Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Ultimate Piccolo.

Cell max isn’t that strong. I think we’re overhyping him and Broly. The guy got hurt by a fat gotenks and 18. I think do this glaring weakness and unstable mind. He can be defeated and bested by kkx20 level characters. I wouldn’t be surprised that he is around omen levels.

Also piccolo did pretty well against him. Hell, if he took the senzu bean. He might have been able to beat him. It’s not that hard to imagine that ssjbkkx or Ssjbe level characters where piccolo was.