Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Do you honestly see SSBE Vegeta or SSB KKx20 lasting that long against Cell Max? I don't lol. No way.

P.S. Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Ultimate Piccolo.

Remember when Golden Freeza took a beating from SSJ Broly for a whole hour?

Yeah Gohan was a bit better than the Gamma he fought and Piccolo was a bit weaker IIRC. To be more accurate its more like Gohan > Gamma 1/2 > Piccolo >=< SSJB Goku/Vegeta, but they’re all very close.

[ZombieVito]

Remember when Golden Freeza took a beating from SSJ Broly for a whole hour?

Yeah Gohan was a bit better than the Gamma he fought and Piccolo was a bit weaker IIRC. To be more accurate its more like Gohan > Gamma 1/2 > Piccolo >=< SSJB Goku/Vegeta, but they’re all very close.

Remember when Freeza survived a planet exploding on him with no ki and half his body?

Freeza is a special case since his race has OP durability. Namekians don't.

[LightBing]

I was thinking that perhaps the power levels are massively different in the movies.

I wonder if the original power balance: SSJG Goku 6, Beerus 10 and Whis 15 is still prevalent in Toriyama's mind.

The Jiren battle is mentioned but we don't know if Goku mastered UI. Toriyama never showed us him using in two movies.

Something like:
Whis - 15
Broly - 12
Jiren/ UI Goku - ?
Beerus - 10
Current Vegeta and Goku - 8.5

Overall numbers, I don't remember specifics. I just remember that in FnF it was mentioned that a tag team of Goku and Vegeta could maybe take on Beerus.

[Koitsukai]

It is definitely different in the movies.

Movies:
Whis 15
Broly/Beerus 10
Goku IDK, 9? he is still not on Beerus' level I guess.

Manga:
Whis 15
Beerus 10
Goku 9
Broly 8

Anime:
Whis 15
Jiren and Goku 11
Beerus 10
Broly: not found(yet)

[LightBing]

Goku would be at least 60 with Kaioken just against Hit.

Manga and Anime have to ignore the interview by Toriyama or everything falls apart.

[Koitsukai]

Goku would be at least 60 with Kaioken just against Hit.

Manga and Anime have to ignore the interview by Toriyama or everything falls apart.

While it was never meant to be taken seriously, those numbers weren't supposed to mean that SSG was less than 2x away from Beerus.
If Goku was a 6, with a 10x or 50x boost from SSB, he is not going to be at 60 or 300, he might be getting closer to 7, maybe 8. There's supposed to be a huge gap between a 6 and a 7.

There was a great, detailed thread about it, cramming in every god tier fighter between 6 and 8, and after 9 the beyond SSB fighters like Zamasu, Kefla, Hakaishin Toppo, Sign, SSBE, SS Broly. After 10, Jiren, Broly, UI, SSB fusions, etc.

It can still work, currently for the manga, I'd say:
Between 9 and 10: UI Goku, UE Vegeta, Gas, Granola, Angel Moro, Merus.
Between 8 and 9: Moro 73, FP Broly, Jiren, ToP UI.
Between 7 and 8: CSSB, Zamasu, Black, Kefla, Gohan, Saganbo, Freeza.
Between 6 and 7: SSG, SSB, Black, Hit, etc.

[LightBing]

Goku would be at least 60 with Kaioken just against Hit.

Manga and Anime have to ignore the interview by Toriyama or everything falls apart.

While it was never meant to be taken seriously, those numbers weren't supposed to mean that SSG was less than 2x away from Beerus.
If Goku was a 6, with a 10x or 50x boost from SSB, he is not going to be at 60 or 300, he might be getting closer to 7, maybe 8. There's supposed to be a huge gap between a 6 and a 7.

There was a great, detailed thread about it, cramming in every god tier fighter between 6 and 8, and after 9 the beyond SSB fighters like Zamasu, Kefla, Hakaishin Toppo, Sign, SSBE, SS Broly. After 10, Jiren, Broly, UI, SSB fusions, etc.

It can still work, currently for the manga, I'd say:
Between 9 and 10: UI Goku, UE Vegeta, Gas, Granola, Angel Moro, Merus.
Between 8 and 9: Moro 73, FP Broly, Jiren, ToP UI.
Between 7 and 8: CSSB, Zamasu, Black, Kefla, Gohan, Saganbo, Freeza.
Between 6 and 7: SSG, SSB, Black, Hit, etc.

How do you reckon?

It's straightforward, a direct answer in regards to BoG power scale. SSJG is 60% of Beerus. It's consistent with the story, Goku isn't destroyed but provides entertainment while having no chance of winning. The Golden rule for Dragon Ball power scale is that at half power, you have no shot.

This has continuity in FnF with Goku and Vegeta having a shot at defeating Beerus in a tag team(said so by Whis I believe).

There's absolutely no reason to not take what Toriyama said at face value. It's clear he said 10 because it's an easy number to explain scale.
I don't understand how people can twist this stuff. How does the Kaioken not turn the 6 into a 60? It's math. How is the math denied?

Isn't the logical explanation that the anime/manga ignored the statement to milk Super? It's a simple case of lack of planning.

[Jack Bz]

I agree. It's clear as day what Toriyama meant with the 6, 10 and 15 scale. Especially since battle of gods went out of its way to say things like Beerus was using 70% of his power to beat Goku. To try and separate the numbers into being arbitrary tiers rather than just directly comparing the ratios of the numbers to each other just makes the original statement worthless.

Like really, do people think Toriyama meant "Goku is a tier 6 fighter and Beerus is a tier 10 fighter" rather than "Beerus is almost twice as strong as Goku"?

The scale was made worthless arguably by resurrection F, and utterly destroyed when kaioken and blue fusion came into existence.

[Koitsukai]

Goku would be at least 60 with Kaioken just against Hit.

Manga and Anime have to ignore the interview by Toriyama or everything falls apart.

While it was never meant to be taken seriously, those numbers weren't supposed to mean that SSG was less than 2x away from Beerus.
If Goku was a 6, with a 10x or 50x boost from SSB, he is not going to be at 60 or 300, he might be getting closer to 7, maybe 8. There's supposed to be a huge gap between a 6 and a 7.

There was a great, detailed thread about it, cramming in every god tier fighter between 6 and 8, and after 9 the beyond SSB fighters like Zamasu, Kefla, Hakaishin Toppo, Sign, SSBE, SS Broly. After 10, Jiren, Broly, UI, SSB fusions, etc.

It can still work, currently for the manga, I'd say:
Between 9 and 10: UI Goku, UE Vegeta, Gas, Granola, Angel Moro, Merus.
Between 8 and 9: Moro 73, FP Broly, Jiren, ToP UI.
Between 7 and 8: CSSB, Zamasu, Black, Kefla, Gohan, Saganbo, Freeza.
Between 6 and 7: SSG, SSB, Black, Hit, etc.

How do you reckon?

It's straightforward, a direct answer in regards to BoG power scale. SSJG is 60% of Beerus. It's consistent with the story, Goku isn't destroyed but provides entertainment while having no chance of winning. The Golden rule for Dragon Ball power scale is that at half power, you have no shot.

This has continuity in FnF with Goku and Vegeta having a shot at defeating Beerus in a tag team(said so by Whis I believe).

There's absolutely no reason to not take what Toriyama said at face value. It's clear he said 10 because it's an easy number to explain scale.
I don't understand how people can twist this stuff. How does the Kaioken not turn the 6 into a 60? It's math. How is the math denied?

Isn't the logical explanation that the anime/manga ignored the statement to milk Super? It's a simple case of lack of planning.

Easy, Whis isn't 1,5x stronger than Beerus. You don't put a guy to sleep as easily with just that difference. Hardly what you'd expect from a master like Whis, either.

[ZombieVito]

Easy, Whis isn't 1,5x stronger than Beerus. You don't put a guy to sleep as easily with just that difference. Hardly what you'd expect from a master like Whis, either.

Ginyu said that Goku needed to be at least 60,000 to have beaten Recoome and Burter like he did.

[LightBing]

Easy, Whis isn't 1,5x stronger than Beerus. You don't put a guy to sleep as easily with just that difference. Hardly what you'd expect from a master like Whis, either.

Based on Toriyama's logic I disagree. The difference is probably exacerbated since Whis is Beerus master and knows his weakness even better.

Here's the gaps we know 100% for sure in the manga to support this. If you care to read all this:

Spoiler:

Raditz (12xx, said so by Nappa) vs Goku (416) and Piccolo (408) Gap 66%

Raditz owns them both at the same time, there's no dispute that in a head-to-head fight this power difference is more than enough for dominance. I highlight that Goku and Piccolo had the advantage of ki-sensing/modification, besides the surprise factor.
Piccolo would never have been able to hit with his Makankosappo alone and he failed the first time with Goku's help.

Part 1: Goku (8.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 56%

This is rather short but we see Goku turned into a punching bag, just no chance at all. Another case of dominance.

Part 2: Kaioken x2 Goku (16.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 12%

This super short, what we see is Goku partially dodging Vegeta's attack. Which indicates that this wouldn't be a one way beat down. However, it appears Goku still wouldn't have any chance of victory in a head-to-head confrontation.

Part 3: Kaioken x3 Goku (24.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 25%

Vegeta gets dominated. He tries to fight back, failing to hit Goku. This is very one-sided.

Vegeta (24.000) vs Kiwi (18.000) Gap 25%

A panicked and fleeing Kiwi is easily killed by Vegeta. The difference between this fight and the previous gap 25% fight are three factors: Kiwi mental state in here does him harm, he's already a defeated man; Vegeta's toughness to resist Goku onslaught; Goku's suffering the stress of the Kaioken.
I would say there's consistency between both fight's, if we take into account the details and not simply raw power. The result would be the same, the impact changes due to the details.

Nail (42.000) vs First Form Freeza (530.000) Gap 93%
Overkill...

Conclusion: At the very least 25% power advantage is enough to own, even with other factors like toughness, mental state and ki-sensing/modifying advantages. Vegeta is one of the biggest tanks in the series, that wouldn't stop him from losing to Kaioken x3 Goku.
I should note that if you let yourself get hit by a Genki Dama or allow Piccolo to charge his Makankosappo for an hour, you're gonna lose. Special techniques can cover any gap, what I'm discussing is a head-to-head type of confrontation.

Based on other fight's that we can kinda guess the characters power level, I theorize that a gap of 10/15% can be overcome by skill, intelligence, toughness, team work, etc...
10% or less and we should have an entertaining and even fight.

[GatoF]

How strong is base Piccolo in the new movie considering that he fought two SSB tier characters like Gamma 2 and Moro and he survived.

[ZombieVito]

How strong is base Piccolo in the new movie considering that he fought two SSB tier characters like Gamma 2 and Moro and he survived.

Probably the same as the anime, base tier. Gamma 2 wasn't going all out on their first fight btw.

[Berserker1921]

I was thinking that perhaps the power levels are massively different in the movies.

I wonder if the original power balance: SSJG Goku 6, Beerus 10 and Whis 15 is still prevalent in Toriyama's mind.

The Jiren battle is mentioned but we don't know if Goku mastered UI. Toriyama never showed us him using in two movies.

Something like:
Whis - 15
Broly - 12
Jiren/ UI Goku - ?
Beerus - 10
Current Vegeta and Goku - 8.5

Overall numbers, I don't remember specifics. I just remember that in FnF it was mentioned that a tag team of Goku and Vegeta could maybe take on Beerus.

Movie:
Whis: 15
Beerus: 10
Goku/Vegeta: 8.5
Broly: 9

Anime:
Whis: 15
Beerus: 10
Goku/Jiren: 11
Vegeta: 8

Manga:
Whis: 15
Beerus: 12
Goku/Vegeta: 9
Jiren: 8.5
Broly: 8.5

[ankokudaishogun]

How strong is base Piccolo in the new movie considering that he fought two SSB tier characters like Gamma 2 and Moro and he survived.

at full power, Base Piccolo is probably about 3-to-God Class

[dragonball0900]

How strong is base Piccolo in the new movie considering that he fought two SSB tier characters like Gamma 2 and Moro and he survived.

In the manga, he is above SSJ3 tier but still below SSG. In the movie continuity he has to be somewhere between Base and SSJ tier.

[HeroR]

I was thinking that perhaps the power levels are massively different in the movies.

I wonder if the original power balance: SSJG Goku 6, Beerus 10 and Whis 15 is still prevalent in Toriyama's mind.

The Jiren battle is mentioned but we don't know if Goku mastered UI. Toriyama never showed us him using in two movies.

Something like:
Whis - 15
Broly - 12
Jiren/ UI Goku - ?
Beerus - 10
Current Vegeta and Goku - 8.5

Overall numbers, I don't remember specifics. I just remember that in FnF it was mentioned that a tag team of Goku and Vegeta could maybe take on Beerus.

The retellings are the canon to Dragon Ball Super since they were Toriyama’s idea. So I doubt he’s basing his scaling from the Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’ movies.

[Hugo Boss]

I was thinking that perhaps the power levels are massively different in the movies.

I wonder if the original power balance: SSJG Goku 6, Beerus 10 and Whis 15 is still prevalent in Toriyama's mind.

The Jiren battle is mentioned but we don't know if Goku mastered UI. Toriyama never showed us him using in two movies.

Something like:
Whis - 15
Broly - 12
Jiren/ UI Goku - ?
Beerus - 10
Current Vegeta and Goku - 8.5

Overall numbers, I don't remember specifics. I just remember that in FnF it was mentioned that a tag team of Goku and Vegeta could maybe take on Beerus.

Jack Bz made a good call. Toriyama arguably changed his mind by Ressurrection of Freeza, as he wrote that Goku and Vegeta cooperating were an evenly match for Beerus, so either one of them would be at 50% Beerus’ power, instead of 60%~70% if he followed Battle of Gods power scale. For his turn, I guess Golden Freeza would be right about 53% Beerus’ power at his best, if we go strictly with his very short power advantage over Goku and the seemingly huge power gap between Beerus and himself.

In DB Super movie #1, comparatively Goku and Vegeta working together were no match for Super Saiyan Broly, they needed Fusion, then maybe Toriyama could be assessing Broly as stronger than Beerus because of what he wrote in Ressurrection of Freeza? The problem is the theatrical movie showed Broly could still evolve to an unique version of Super Saiyan and maybe Toriyama only intended for Broly to go regular Super Saiyan and Gogeta Super Saiyan Blue. So, it’s a little difficult to say what was happening in his mind there.

If we dive a little deeper in the numbers, I will assume Toriyama had something like this in his mind when he wrote Broly:

• SSB Goku - 5
• SSB Vegeta - 5
• Beerus - 10
• SS Broly - 11
• SSB Gogeta - 12
• Whis - 15

But the finished movie instead looks like this:

• SSB Goku - 5
• SSB Vegeta - 5
• SS Broly - 15
• SS Gogeta - 15
• Beerus - 25
• LSS Broly - 30
• SSB Gogeta - 35
• Whis - 40

I’m guessing, in Toriyama’s vision, power-wise Beerus was supposed to fit between Rage Broly and SS Broly and ended up adjusted to between SS Broly and LSS Broly, which also altered SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta power gap between themselves and Beerus once again. Now, Goku is like 20%~25% Beerus’ power (if we are being generous). Who knows how Jiren and Ultra Instinct would fit here. Maybe I will revisit this subject in a next analysis.

In short, you could say even the movies aren’t entirely self consistent in the strength ranking system.

[Lukmendes]

It is definitely different in the movies.

Movies:
Whis 15
Broly/Beerus 10
Goku IDK, 9? he is still not on Beerus' level I guess.

Manga:
Whis 15
Beerus 10
Goku 9
Broly 8

Anime:
Whis 15
Jiren and Goku 11
Beerus 10
Broly: not found(yet)

I really don't think that applies to the anime in any way, BoG arc itself ends with Beerus admitting to Whis he lied about using whatever random % he said he was using, something that wasn't on the movie, this was likely a correction to make Blue being below Beerus look more believable.

[Berserker1921]

What negatives or nerfs will Gohan’s Beast form receive in later arcs?

UE: Has to be injured to become stronger.

UI: Drains through stamina faster than Ssj3.

Full Power Ssj: Makes the warrior go insane.

Beast: ???

What do you think Gohan’s new form’s weakness is going to be?