Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

The original movie scaling presented in Battle definitely works well if we assume that what Toriyama presented is a linear scale. Once Super Saiyan Goku emerges, Beerus is shown taking the fight more seriously. He has an aura flared during the majority of the fight and battles Goku with a fierce expression with his tongue sticking out. The series has already established that oftentimes characters begin taking fights seriously when they're operating at roughly 50% of their power and that seems to bode well with Toriyama's initial powerscaling.

Super Saiyan Goku: 5
Beerus (Serious): 5-6
Super Saiyan God Goku: 6
Beerus (Final Attack): 7
Beerus (Full Power): 10
Whis: 10

Super Saiyan Goku was powerful enough to contest Beerus when he begins battling seriously. He would fall under roughly 50% of Beerus' power. His Super Saiyan God Power would be the final power he uses to mitigate Beerus' strongest attack in the battle. 70% would be the highest power Beerus uses against Goku which was something Goku still needs to continue working towards. Whis being 50% stronger than Beerus seems pretty reasonable. That's enough to one-shot someone especially when they're taken off-guard. Beerus wasn't in the proper mindset, was a complete emotional wreck bouncing around, and left himself completely unguarded. That's essentially the difference between the Ginyu Force and Goku which was demonstrably massive.

Once Resurrection of F rolls around, Akira Toriyama likely revised the scale. Goku and Vegeta's Saiyan Beyond Power would presumably be equivalent to Super Saiyan God Goku which would be a 6 and he can go Super Saiyan in addition to that to enter Blue. There would likely be some revisions to this list and I'd imagine that would apply to the Broly movie since it builds off of our understanding of the Super anime to some capacity.

[ankokudaishogun]

Full Power Ssj: Makes the warrior go insane.

it's not going Full Power that causes Broly going crazy.

if anything, he managed to access Full Power BECAUSE he wasn't thinking straight

[Hugo Boss]

What do you think Gohan’s new form’s weakness is going to be?

Probably accessibility. The trigger to the form is intense rage and Gohan can't replicate this condition all the time. I think he has to figure out how to control that power to make it always accessible.

[Xeno Goku Black]

So are we meant to believe that in the manga Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta is superior to Broly?

[Hugo Boss]

So are we meant to believe that in the manga Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta is superior to Broly?

According to Whis, who should know how strong Broly was, Goku and Vegeta were superior. The only workaround would be that Broly can’t control himself, so maybe Whis doesn’t think screaming like a idiot is a sign of strength.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Possibly, I could believe that a transformed Moro was above Broly. Piccolo said fusion would be useless afterall so he must figure that Moro could at least lay a hand on him unlike Broly.

And Ultra Instinct Goku too but Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta? I dunno about that. He was pretty much on the same level as Ultra Instinct Sign Goku.

[ankokudaishogun]

So are we meant to believe that in the manga Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta is superior to Broly?

What are you talking about? Broly's raw power is high enough that Vegeta's and Goku's strongest Blue forms weren't enough to match it, regardless what form they had access in the anime\manga

[Xeno Goku Black]

So are we meant to believe that in the manga Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta is superior to Broly?

What are you talking about? Broly's raw power is high enough that Vegeta's and Goku's strongest Blue forms weren't enough to match it, regardless what form they had access in the anime\manga

What Hugo mentioned above. At the start of the Granolah arc according to Whis he did not know anyone who surpassed Goku and Vegeta when Vegeta's best at that point was Super Saiyan Blue Evolution.

And he knows Broly.

[Skar]

Maybe Broly being close to Beerus' power or slightly above it means they don't count him. It's a way to explain Whis' statement and Granolah wishing to be the strongest in the universe except the gods while Broly still being above Goku and Vegeta in Super Hero. The original Broly called himself a devil so already confirms he's a deity! Not really but imagine if his primal forms are like the opposite of SSJG and some type of SSJDevil.

[Xeno Goku Black]

You know....I never thought about that.

Yeah what if Broly actually is stronger than Beerus but characters like Granolah and Gas are weaker than Broly because the wish specifically said that they can't be made stronger than Gods and making them stronger than Broly would in turn make them stronger than Gods.

That could potentially be away around that..... though there is Goku saying that Moro was the toughest he'd ever faced when he had faced Broly so maybe not.

[Thani]

Maybe Broly being close to Beerus' power or slightly above it means they don't count him. It's a way to explain Whis' statement and Granolah wishing to be the strongest in the universe except the gods while Broly still being above Goku and Vegeta in Super Hero. The original Broly called himself a devil so already confirms he's a deity! Not really but imagine if his primal forms are like the opposite of SSJG and some type of SSJDevil.

Well, this form is known in U6 as the "Demon Saiyan".

[ankokudaishogun]

What Hugo mentioned above. At the start of the Granolah arc according to Whis he did not know anyone who surpassed Goku and Vegeta when Vegeta's best at that point was Super Saiyan Blue Evolution.

And he knows Broly.

oh, that.
Yeah, probably Vegeta did improve enough to out-skill Broly enough

[Skar]

That could potentially be away around that..... though there is Goku saying that Moro was the toughest he'd ever faced when he had faced Broly so maybe not.

Yeah the only way around that line is that Goku meant the strongest he faced alone. Technically he fought SSJ Broly since Broly only went LSSJ against Gogeta so FP Moro could be between those two Broly forms. It's likely not what Toyotaro meant by that line so it depends if the manga ever brings up Broly's power again.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Only hope of making any sense of it is if they bring Broly back into the manga in the next arc.

[HeroR]

That could potentially be away around that..... though there is Goku saying that Moro was the toughest he'd ever faced when he had faced Broly so maybe not.

Yeah the only way around that line is that Goku meant the strongest he faced alone. Technically he fought SSJ Broly since Broly only went LSSJ against Gogeta so FP Moro could be between those two Broly forms. It's likely not what Toyotaro meant by that line so it depends if the manga ever brings up Broly's power again.

I find it weird that only Broly is brought up when Goku also fought Beerus. Which mean his statement should put Moro above Beerus.

[Berserker1921]

I think we’re all overhyping Broly’s power. I think Beerus is still stronger than Broly. And maybe the wish to become the strongest did work. And maybe after that time, Broly began training with Goku and Vegeta. And after that, he became stronger than them. As well may have become stronger than Gas, who will be dead by this time.

[Goku9001]

I don't think so. Goku explicitly states that Moro was the strongest opponent he had ever battled hence why Goku considers the possibility of Moro training so he could give Goku a good battle in the future. Iyoku already clarified that the movies and manga exists as two separate continuities so that can be an explanation as to why Broly's raw power being comparable to Beerus' proves to be incongruous with what the manga suggests.

Since the manga does acknowledge the events of Broly, I think it's reasonable to assume that Moro is stronger than Broly based on Goku's statement alone. And how Broly compares to Beerus should have no bearing on what Whis states about Goku and Vegeta in which he couldn't find a mortal in the universe that was stronger than Goku and Vegeta. Therefore, the implication is that both Perfect Ultra Instinct Goku and Blue Evolved Vegeta were already stronger than Broly and had become much stronger after training with Whis/Beerus.

On that subject, it is interesting looking at Goku's comparison between Broly and Beerus in retrospect. Based on the emphasis Super Hero makes on mental stability and combat skill, it seems like Goku made that comparison between Broly and Beerus because while Broly's power may be enough to overwhelm Beerus, his combat skill and mental instability holds him back severely to the point where Beerus may easily overcome him.

[Berserker1921]

I don't think so. Goku explicitly states that Moro was the strongest opponent he had ever battled hence why Goku considers the possibility of Moro training so he could give Goku a good battle in the future. Iyoku already clarified that the movies and manga exists as two separate continuities so that can be an explanation as to why Broly's raw power being comparable to Beerus' proves to be incongruous with what the manga suggests.

Since the manga does acknowledge the events of Broly, I think it's reasonable to assume that Moro is stronger than Broly based on Goku's statement alone. And how Broly compares to Beerus should have no bearing on what Whis states about Goku and Vegeta in which he couldn't find a mortal in the universe that was stronger than Goku and Vegeta. Therefore, the implication is that both Perfect Ultra Instinct Goku and Blue Evolved Vegeta were already stronger than Broly and had become much stronger after training with Whis/Beerus.

On that subject, it is interesting looking at Goku's comparison between Broly and Beerus in retrospect. Based on the emphasis Super Hero makes on mental stability and combat skill, it seems like Goku made that comparison between Broly and Beerus because while Broly's power may be enough to overwhelm Beerus, his combat skill and mental instability holds him back severely to the point where Beerus may easily overcome him.

Probably his mental stability is what helps Beerus keep his abilities over his opponents.

But do you think Broly could have gotten stronger after the events of the granolah arc with just training?

[Goku9001]

Probably his mental stability is what helps Beerus keep his abilities over his opponents.

But do you think Broly could have gotten stronger after the events of the granolah arc with just training?

From my view, I think Toriyama i.e the movies strictly has Broly's power above Beerus' but Beerus' abilities exceed Broly's making unclear to Goku though I think the intent is that Beerus is likely still stronger albeit not by much since Beerus would still be weaker than Gogeta Blue. In Jiren's case, Jiren's power is not too far off of Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta's but his abilities allows him to hit far beyond his weight and exceeds the Gods of Destruction. In short, Broly just has the power, Jiren just has the skill, and Beerus has the best of both worlds. That'd be my interpretation.

In terms of the manga, Beerus is strictly way beyond Granolah, Gas, Moro, Broly, and Jiren in respect to power and then has a plethora of abilities that we haven't seen before that is connected to "Destruction". I think the Super manga do emphasize skill but the major determining factor seems to be focused on battle power but that can be obtained in different ways beyond just honing your strength.

I think it's a strong possibility that Broly got stronger since then. In fact, I'd be surprised if he hasn't if they intend on bringing him back.

[Xeno Goku Black]

It's amazing it's not more clear. Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Cell Max. You could really go into discussion about whose the strongest here. You could ask twenty different people here to rank them and get all sorts of answers.

It couldn't have been clearer in Z. Nobody would ever dispute Buu > Cell > Frieza.