Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Berserker1921]

It almost implies that Gas isn't the strongest in the universe that the Oracle Fish had the prophecy over.

Which is weird. Gas was taking on UI and UE at once and pretty much would win without their endless plot shield. Broly isn't a GoD and should be just likewise surpassed by Granolah's and Gas' wishes.

Maybe we’re overthinking this. What if superhero just takes place a few months or a year later. And broly just got stronger than goku and the gang after training with them. Or maybe the strongest in the universe prophecy is just foreshadowing broly’s eventual destiny as u7 strongest mortal. I mean it took the fish prophecy about the Ssj god, 40 years to come true.

[Xeno Goku Black]

There's clearly something to.the Oracle Fishes reaction though. That was included for a reason.

It does read like the Oracle Fish doesn't know who he is which surprises Whis who figured that Gas meant to be the strongest and who the prophecy was about.

So I don't think Gas is meant to be that one.

[ssj3kakarot]

It's said in this movie that they weren't sure if they could have defeated Cell Max even with Goku and Vegetas help.....

.....Is this including a fusion of the two? Thoughts?

[Hugo Boss]

It's said in this movie that they weren't sure if they could have defeated Cell Max even with Goku and Vegetas help.....

.....Is this including a fusion of the two? Thoughts?

I guess there is no problem if you want to interpret it like that. Cell Max is potentially stronger than Broly, so there is the possibility that he is stronger than Gogeta as well. Though it’s not clear if that is what Gohan meant.

[ssj3kakarot]

It's said in this movie that they weren't sure if they could have defeated Cell Max even with Goku and Vegetas help.....

.....Is this including a fusion of the two? Thoughts?

I guess there is no problem if you want to interpret it like that. Cell Max is potentially stronger than Broly, so there is the possibility that he is stronger than Gogeta as well. Though it’s not clear if that is what Gohan meant.

The only problem I see is that it means Gohan is stronger than Gogeta. Right?

[Hugo Boss]

It's said in this movie that they weren't sure if they could have defeated Cell Max even with Goku and Vegetas help.....

.....Is this including a fusion of the two? Thoughts?

I guess there is no problem if you want to interpret it like that. Cell Max is potentially stronger than Broly, so there is the possibility that he is stronger than Gogeta as well. Though it’s not clear if that is what Gohan meant.

The only problem I see is that it means Gohan is stronger than Gogeta. Right?

If you assume Cell Max can be stronger than Gogeta, then that’s a possibility, yes. Though I’m not seeing the problem here? Is that because Gogeta is a fusion?

[ssj3kakarot]

I guess there is no problem if you want to interpret it like that. Cell Max is potentially stronger than Broly, so there is the possibility that he is stronger than Gogeta as well. Though it’s not clear if that is what Gohan meant.

The only problem I see is that it means Gohan is stronger than Gogeta. Right?

If you assume Cell Max can be stronger than Gogeta, then that’s a possibility, yes. Though I’m not seeing the problem here? Is that because Gogeta is a fusion?

I personally don't think they are implying Gogeta (when referring to Goku and Vegeta). However, if Gohan has leap frogged THIS much, to where he is stronger than Gogeta..thats straight up some Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory kinda problem.

[Thani]

I guess there is no problem if you want to interpret it like that. Cell Max is potentially stronger than Broly, so there is the possibility that he is stronger than Gogeta as well. Though it’s not clear if that is what Gohan meant.

The only problem I see is that it means Gohan is stronger than Gogeta. Right?

If you assume Cell Max can be stronger than Gogeta, then that’s a possibility, yes. Though I’m not seeing the problem here? Is that because Gogeta is a fusion?

I assume that it would be because Gohan would be TOO ahead of Goku and Vegeta.

I personally just assume that Gogeta can't go UI or UE without lasting less than a second, so Blue is his maximum (safe-ish) practical output. With both UI Goku and UE Vegeta rivaling that, which means Gohan could be on the same level or only slightly above that.

Until I'm proven wrong, of course.

[Koitsukai]

Granola, still injured -stated by himself- was able to put down Grampa Gas who was slapping around Sign Goku, who was above FP Gas, who stomped Granola with no effort. Meaning these guys aren't that far apart from one another, right?

And what does Goku's susanoo mean? is that a power beyond regular silver UI? like vs Moro? was that projection stronger than Grampa Gas? it must be for Gas to not be able to escape it, but he could only use it for that particular thing at that particular time?
Does this mean Goku's projection against Moro was much stronger than initially thought?

[Berserker1921]

Granola, still injured -stated by himself- was able to put down Grampa Gas who was slapping around Sign Goku, who was above FP Gas, who stomped Granola with no effort. Meaning these guys aren't that far apart from one another, right?

And what does Goku's susanoo mean? is that a power beyond regular silver UI? like vs Moro? was that projection stronger than Grampa Gas? it must be for Gas to not be able to escape it, but he could only use it for that particular thing at that particular time?
Does this mean Goku's projection against Moro was much stronger than initially thought?

Well, grandpa gas lost all his durability. He couldn’t take hits. He was a glass canon. And it’s hinted his body was weaker now, physically. His attacks are what made him dangerous. You notice Goku keep saying his ki and spirit are all out of wack. He was nothing but raw power.

He got injured by granolah. So granolah may have not grown as strong but was able to harm him cause gas was all out of wack. I mean vegeta was physically able to hold back gas cause he was old and injured.

Goku could only contain him for a few seconds. Gas was gonna kill granolah. Eventually break through the shield.

[Xeno Goku Black]

I thought Vegeta had surpassed Granolah but maybe he hadn't. He shouldn't be stronger than Goku though.

And I don't know what is going on with Goku's Susanoo because that seemed like it was a big thing at the time and they just never mentioned it so I thought maybe it was just meant to be some visual thing like when Goku and Beerus fought and they powered up and created dragons out their energy.

But no apparently it is some power of his.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's said in this movie that they weren't sure if they could have defeated Cell Max even with Goku and Vegetas help.....

.....Is this including a fusion of the two? Thoughts?

Probably not since Toriyama suggested Cell Max as seen in the film wouldn’t be capable of defeating Broly.

I personally don't think they are implying Gogeta (when referring to Goku and Vegeta). However, if Gohan has leap frogged THIS much, to where he is stronger than Gogeta..thats straight up some Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory kinda problem.

But Blue Gogeta isn’t supposed to be that much stronger than UI Goku right? He’s just strong enough to dominate Broly, who’s somewhat above UI Goku. Unless we take the novel saying SSJ1 Broly > everyone else in the universe.

Granola, still injured -stated by himself- was able to put down Grampa Gas who was slapping around Sign Goku, who was above FP Gas, who stomped Granola with no effort. Meaning these guys aren't that far apart from one another, right?

And what does Goku's susanoo mean? is that a power beyond regular silver UI? like vs Moro? was that projection stronger than Grampa Gas? it must be for Gas to not be able to escape it, but he could only use it for that particular thing at that particular time?
Does this mean Goku's projection against Moro was much stronger than initially thought?

Granolah reminded me of Piccolo in the fight with Raditz, being injured but still being capable of using his full power in a blast. Granted Piccolo was in better shape, but if Goku and Vegeta got a resolve boost from Bardock then why not Granolah?

I don’t watch Naruto but I’d assume the Susano’o works just like it works there since Toyotaro won’t giving us any explanation. Goku waking up out of nowhere does make it look like there’s something supernatural going on though.

Well, grandpa gas lost all his durability. He couldn’t take hits. He was a glass canon. And it’s hinted his body was weaker now, physically. His attacks are what made him dangerous. You notice Goku keep saying his ki and spirit are all out of wack. He was nothing but raw power.

I missed Goku’s line about Gas’ ki being above his body, but that would explain why he’s using those Ki fists and clown shoes to (literally) stomp Goku.

[Miracles]

Old man Gas > New UI Sign Goku > Gas > UE Vegeta > Granolah.

With Gas down, Goku is currently the strongest.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

This chapter ties back into something I said earlier about Goku's UI level. UI Silver is stronger than UI Omen(Saiyan Instinct) as stated by Gas and Goku earlier. UI Omen was a fallback due to UI Silver being compromised by Goku's emotional state. UI Silver at full accuracy was never defeated in this arc. The explanations of stamina loss and emotional compromise shows that the narrative was protecting the full power of the form.

UI Silver(Full Accuracy)>Old Gas>UI Omen(Saiyan Instinct)>Gas(Instincts released)>UE Vegeta(Gas fight)>Base Gas>Granola

People need to stop acting as if the wishes that Granola and Gas made to be strongest have no leeway whatsoever as if weaknesses of fighters aren't taken into account when the dragon is creating the strongest. "Strongest" needs to be interpreted as "the ability to defeat everyone else", not "he wished to be the strongest, so he has the most ki and beats everyone else under any circumstance". UI Silver at full accuracy zero diffs Granola with body hardening and UI avatar. However, stamina limitations throw a wrench in this and Granola can outlast Goku's full accuracy in order to hit a weakpoint.

[Hugo Boss]

I’m seeing a few posts suggesting Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Granolah, but isn’t this chapter pretty much telling Granolah is stronger than them? Goku shifted his approach to a supportive role, and Gas highlighted Granolah’s increasing power. Not to mention Elec suggested Granolah had the strength to kill Goku and Vegeta. Granolah also managed to withstand the shockwave of his ki blast, while Goku and Vegeta needed his assist (though they were very weakened by Gas).

As it stands, my reading from chapter #86 is Gas > Granolah > Goku > Vegeta. But, to be fair, it does look like current Vegeta would be able to defeat Gas and Granolah from chapters ago, at least before Gas released his instincts. Everyone here got stronger because of Bardock, lol.

[Mr Baggins]

*snip*

This guy gets it.

The bulk of this arc is spent putting limitations on the silver-haired form rather than overpowering it. Save for the gods, I actually don't think any character has managed the latter. UI Goku is just that big of a deal, which I think today's chapter further reinforces.

I’m seeing a few posts suggesting Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Granolah, but isn’t this chapter pretty much telling Granolah is stronger than them?

Granolah just has the reserves to defeat Gas after charging his ki blast for several minutes, which he couldn't accomplish one-on-one. Think Piccolo's Makankosappo. That doesn't necessarily make him stronger than any of them, though it seems as if they're all in close enough proximity regardless.

[Mr Baggins]

Pardon the double post, but I guess I'll rescind that first part. Per the official site, Goku's emotional UI is a new form after all and has a name: True Ultra Instinct (真の身勝手の極意). It even says he's awakened it for the first time, both in Japanese and in English.

I don't care to try making any sense of it at this point, although it does make tier-listing a little easier.

[Goku9001]

Interesting. I always figured it was making use of Ultra Instinct Omen but I did notice that it was lacking the lighter shade of black/gray surrounding his hair which is a distinct trait that Ultra instinct Omen has. I figured this was a way to differentiate between the two different applications of Omen, but it does make sense for it to be a new form. It does make me wonder if the Silver-haired form will be used at some point given how it was shown to be instrumental in Gas' defeat in the most recent chapter.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That actually does explain a lot. I suspected it could be a different form but wasn’t sure.

I think last chapter was rather vague so I have no idea how the scale is supposed to look. Goku and Vegeta clearly got boosts from remembering Bardock, and since Granolah heard it in his dreams he apparently got one too?

It’s hard to tell how strong Granolah ends up being because he’s still beaten up and did have to focus a lot of energy, but if he spared Gas he must be confident in his abilities to keep him in a leash.

I have absolutely no fucking idea about anything that has to do with Goku’s giant aura.

[Goku9001]

Looking back at the description, it is clearly Goku using Ultra Instinct Omen. The explanation explains that Goku uses his "black-haired Ultra Instinct form" but it is classified as a separate transformation likely for simplicity in understanding that it's not just Ultra Instinct Omen. It's something extraordinary happening which makes it a new transformation and new transformations = more power. If this is labeled "True Ultra Instinct", it makes me wonder what his Silver-haired form will be called once he masters that.

That said, I have no idea what happened with his Silver-haired form towards the end of Chapter 86. It definitely seemed as though something subconscious was at play here but I don't know what to think of this.