Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So from what I can make out there's a few different ways to take it.

1. You can go purely by the manga -> Broly movie -> manga where it's easy enough to make an order of things. Broly is just not really anything special there, apparently he's surpassed by Blue Evolved Vegeta even.

The Super Hero movie then just doesn't really fit with it, which would be fair enough because it was written before it.

2. You can follow the anime so it went anime -> Broly -> Super Hero and again it would make sense. Ultra Ego isn't a thing. Goku can't become Ultra Instinct at will. Jiren is still held in high regard and Broly is still the mortal at the top.

Orange Piccolo is like Blue Evolved/Blue Kaioken level and Cell Max and Beast Gohan fit somewhere within the Jiren range. From say 100% Jiren to Super Full Power Jiren.

3. Or kinda like the above but don't take take into account the things that Toriyama probably doesn't take into account so Blue Evolved and Ultra Instinct Sign. Jiren maybe wasn't so overwhelming powerful in his mind compared to what the anime portrayed. Maybe Android 17 isn't so special as far as he's concerned so neither are the Gamma's.

So Orange Piccolo is Blue level. Cell Max and Beast Gohan stronger than that but maybe not Ultra Instinct level or maybe that at best.

I think I'll go with a mix between 2 and 3. In one hand, Orange Piccolo being SSJBE/KKx20 SSJB level is very neat. On the other hand, the movies do contradict the anime in some small details like Pan flying (she consistently does so as a baby, and we don't know when she started training but it was very early so she shouldn't be struggling) or Freeza not knowing what fusion is despite seeing Gotenks. Not to mention the anime itself alludes to filler like Gregory and Frog Bulma, despite AT calling the anime the sequel to his manga.

So I think it's easier to just take the anime and shave off the filler. Not down to it's bare bones and turn it into the DBS manga, just get rid of the inconsistencies. Toriyama has a faulty memory and barely bothers to watch the anime, so I think it's fair to just take it's bullet points into account.

Broly is only mentioned to be a loose cannon that could jeopardize the planet(most of his ranking comes from the previous movie and from out-of-universe statements)

Something that hasn't been mentioned about SH is that Vegeta > Goku. I don't rememeber now if the original manga ends with Geet's promise to surpass Goku or if it has that other ending. It'd be odd if he still wants to surpass him when he just beat the shit outta him a year ago.

And Goku flat out saying they have yet to surpass Broly. But it's pretty easy for the manga to just omit that line.

Well it's Vegeta, so Goku will pull ahead again. And Super has already retconned Bulma saying she hasn't seen Goku in 5 years, so here too we might as well just ignore that line. I think they'll end up rewritting EoZ when it comes.

[ankokudaishogun]

1. Both anime and manga did show us Ultimate Gohan as Blue-Class.
   This strongly suggests it was part of Toriyama's original ideas.
2. It's not really realistic to believe he ever meant for Ultimate Gohan to be as strong as Goku and Vegeta at their most powerful.
   Otherwise there wouldn't have been necessity of Beast.
3. Piccolo was also sure Serious Gohan(aka Ultimate) could deal with the Gammas no problem(even both of them?).
   Together with the previous points it means: "Ultimate Gohan, who is not as strong as Goku and Vegeta at their strongest, can defeat the Gammas who are as strong as Goku and Vegeta"

Taking all of this together, I think the most likely interpretation is: "Piccolo was talking about the Gammas being Blue-Class, the same realm of power as Goku and Vegeta"

Thus:

• Potential Unleashed Piccolo and MVP-17: about Base Blue.
• Gamma-1: between Base Blue and Complete Blue\Blue KKx10.
• Gamma-2: stronger than Gamma-1 but not Complete Blue strong.
• Ultimate Gohan: about Complete Blue\Blue KK x10
• Piccolo Orange: somehow stronger than Ultimate Gohan
• Gohan Beast: Broly. Because, c'mon, the comparison is obvious.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Toriyama didn't even remember the series was called Dragon Ball Super so it's safe to say in his mind he isn't going to take anything from the anime into account.

I'd say it would go Dragon Ball the manga, Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, his general concepts and interpretations for the succeeding storylines Broly and then Super Hero.

So when it comes to Gohan, as far as Toriyama was concerned when did he last use his Ultimate form? Against Super Buu? It was in Battle of Gods but maybe it really shouldn't have been now and he probably didn't have any involvement with that anyway.

Then in Resurrection F he was made weaker because he'd stopped training and then in Super Hero he starts off in the same place.

Of course the anime and manga had Gohan become Ultimate again and he became stronger than ever....but Toriyama probably didn't say anything about it.

He turned Ultimate against Super Buu. He stopped training, could barely turn Super Saiyan anymore. Turned Ultimate for the second time against Gamma 1.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

As someone else said, Ultimate Gohan being in the ToP was definitely in AT’s read. The Gammas rival Goku and Vegeta, Ultimate Gohan from the Boo Saga isn’t touching them.

[Koitsukai]

I think we can take into account Gohan's ToP participation. He is nothing like his RoF self, like at all.

This Gohan has access to every form available, he only needed to get some focus (Pan in danger) to get back into his ToP shape again, and there he was, fighting at SSB level. The narrative never makes a big deal about Gohan reaching Ultimate, it wasn't even that unreachable to him. He definitely did something between the movies and that was the ToP.

The Moro arc is the one that is a little out of place, Gohan was on point but I guess some time went by between that day and SH, enough for Gohan to focus solely on his studies, neglect Pan, and lose his sharpness but not that much. It didn't take him that long to get it back, after all.

• Potential Unleashed Piccolo and MVP-17: about Base Blue.
• Gamma-1: between Base Blue and Complete Blue\Blue KKx10.
• Gamma-2: stronger than Gamma-1 but not Complete Blue strong.
• Ultimate Gohan: about Complete Blue\Blue KK x10
• Piccolo Orange: somehow stronger than Ultimate Gohan
• Gohan Beast: Broly. Because, c'mon, the comparison is obvious.

I like this breakdown of the SSB tier.
I would put Orange Piccolo beyond SSBx20 and SSBE, considering how Z LSSBroly-like he was against Gamma 1.

[Draconic]

Is it implied in the movie that Gohan lost his touch? Piccolo seems mad at him for not training in order to get stronger, since if he did he could surpass Goku and Vegeta. However, it seems he does train, in order to keep in shape, so he's no longer getting weaker. He's as strong as in the ToP.

That's not to mention, at the end when he reveals he'd been secretly training the Makankosappo, it's implied he's also training to get stronger, anyway. It's probably why he unlocks Beast: he's been training this entire time to be that strong, but needed the emotional push to go over the edge.

Even if this isn't 100% accurate as I've only seen the film months ago, there's still no reason to have him weaker than his ToP self (or Moro if you want to count that).

[Xeno Goku Black]

I don't know what was thought up behind the scenes but as far as the movies go there does seem to be that kind of narrative where after Buu, Gohan stopped training for years and could now only go Super Saiyan.

By Super Hero, he just seems to be focused on his work, makes some kind of comment where it seems like the idea of there being a new threat is farfetched and Piccolo pushes him into obtaining the power he used to have.

So just maybe if you asked Toriyama he would say he used that form against Super Buu and then not again until Gamma 1.

Possible maybe because otherwise it makes Gohan's arc kinda repetitive. Piccolo already picked Gohan up out of the slumps and pushed him into becoming Ultimate again during the Tournament of Power....and now it's happened again? Whose idea was it really to have Gohan become Ultimate during the Tournament of Power? Whose idea was it to make Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 up there with Super Saiyan Blue?

Because if it wasn't Toriyama's idea and he's just gone and done his own thing then there's no reason Ultimate Gohan in Super Hero couldn't be on the same level as back in the Buu arc.

[Goku9001]

Toriyama didn't even remember the series was called Dragon Ball Super so it's safe to say in his mind he isn't going to take anything from the anime into account.

I'd say it would go Dragon Ball the manga, Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, his general concepts and interpretations for the succeeding storylines Broly and then Super Hero.

So when it comes to Gohan, as far as Toriyama was concerned when did he last use his Ultimate form? Against Super Buu? It was in Battle of Gods but maybe it really shouldn't have been now and he probably didn't have any involvement with that anyway.

Then in Resurrection F he was made weaker because he'd stopped training and then in Super Hero he starts off in the same place.

Of course the anime and manga had Gohan become Ultimate again and he became stronger than ever....but Toriyama probably didn't say anything about it.

He turned Ultimate against Super Buu. He stopped training, could barely turn Super Saiyan anymore. Turned Ultimate for the second time against Gamma 1.

The likelihood of that is slim when Toriyama was working closely with both the anime producers and Toyotaro when he was writing the script for Super Hero. An executive producer in Shueisha even confirmed that Toriyama designed Super Hero with enough freedom so that it aligns with the manga. The likelihood that the Gammas initially were incapable of defeating Buu Arc Ultimate Gohan when the Gammas were depicted as powerful as Goku and Vegeta (in the subbed supposedly) makes that very unlikely.

We should be honest here and stop digging at Toriyama. Sure, he forgets things but using that as an argument for anything is an argument out of convenience. The best thing to do is look at the material he's produced and established some sort of consistent pattern between them. Gohan still retained his Buu Saga Ultimate power despite not having trained for several years and Ultimate Gohan was shown to be comparable to Blue Goku at specific points of the ToP across both mediums. There's no reason to believe that Toriyama forgot about Gohan's power since he's been monitoring both the anime and manga.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Well it wouldn't be so much that he forgot but that he never would have intended Gohan's arc to be told in the way that Toei did.

It means Gohan went through the same arc back to back.

[Koitsukai]

Toei and Toyo's take weren't that different.
In both media his Ultimate form is way above Z, one happens off-screen, the other one on-screen, and by the ToP he is on the low end of SSB tier, in the manga -which is the one Toriyama supervised the most- he seems a little stronger even.

There's literally no way SH Gohan is weaker than his ToP self or worse: Buu arc level. The narrative is quite clear that you need to be SSB to fight the Gammas, so if Ultimate Gohan is fighting them, and nobody is going bonkers when they see rusty Z Dr. Gohan being now SSB level... then the ToP, either version of it, happened.

There's nothing in SH that implies the ToP never happened for Gohan, in fact his Beast Form was hinted in both, the manga and in the anime. SH is just Gohan cashing a check issued at the ToP.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

On the topic of the so called "movie continuity", here's my two cents.

Between Toriyama's faulty memory, possible lack of care about continuity and/or the fact he barely watches the anime if at all, I think his concept of what happened ends up being a mix of both anime and manga. He endorses the anime more often as it's the most popular version, but the manga is straightforward enough that it barely has any changes over his outline. Worth pointing out his outline alone should not be considered canon, it's just the initial draft and he works together with Toyotaro and Toei to make characters and plot.

So if we're going to play the "What's the author thinking?" game, I think his headcanon is the movies with some minor changes (the cruise, the 1.3 million line, Sorbet blasting Base Goku and maybe Andrew Tate Tagoma's role and the form Goku used vs Beerus) for BoGs and RoF. U6 is almost the same on both mediums, even Goku vs Hit is the same in how Hit is behind SSJB in raw power but closes the gap with his timeskip. For the FT Saga he was overlooking Toyotaro closely because of SSJG Vegeta, so he probably remembers it better that the complicated anime version. The anime should be closer to the canon since AT talks about it more, but the FT Saga is likely an exception. Lots of unecessary details, plus they skipped SSJ1 Black. Only difference from the manga for Toriyama is that there's no PSSJB, and I'm not sure if he acknowledges SSJ Rage so they probably called Zeno right after Vegetto defused.

The ToP I'll say it's mostly the anime version, except for their filler forms and several other embellishments. To ponder about detailed events just goes into fanfiction territory, but I think we can use this basic chain:

UI Goku ~ Beyond Limits Jiren > FP Jiren > UI Sign Goku ~ SSJ2 Kefla > SSJ1 Kefla ~ SSJB Goku ~ SSJB Vegeta ~ Toppo ~ Android 17 ~ Golden Freeza ~ Ultimate Gohan ~ Hit > SSJG Goku > LSSJ Kale

Kefla ends up being mere guesswork, but fans use her as a benchmark so often I can't see her being retconned another SSJB level like half the ToP fighters. Adding Goku Black, Zamasu, Broly and SH cast:

Gogeta Blue ~ Vegetto Blue >=< Beast Gohan > Cell Max > LSSJ Broly > UI Goku ~ Beyond Limits Jiren > FP Jiren > Merged Zamasu > UI Sign Goku = SSJ2 Kefla > Hit >=< SSJ1 Kefla >= SSJB Goku = SSJB Vegeta = Toppo = Android 17 = Golden Freeza >=< Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1 = Gamma 2 >= Ultimate Piccolo > SSJR Goku Black > SSJG Goku > LSSJ Kale > Future Zamasu

Steering things into a different topic a bit but still about continuity, I think Toyotaro might have been a heavy influence on Toriyama bringing SSJG back. Interviews show Toriyama planned for the golden forms to be replaced with Blue altogether, but that's clearly not the case. So I'm on the retcon side now, although I'm not entirely sure how much Base Goku has been nerfed.

[Skar]

Because if it wasn't Toriyama's idea and he's just gone and done his own thing then there's no reason Ultimate Gohan in Super Hero couldn't be on the same level as back in the Buu arc.

That's what I originally thought since the early previews showed Gohan going SSJ again and said he focused on studies. I assumed he lost power and had to regain Ultimate again. If the Gammas are intended to be Blue tier then I guess that's how strong Toriyama had Gohan during the ToP and he didn't lose it by SH. I thought it was little weird that Gohan could get that strong without God ki while Goku and Vegeta needed to train with Whis for years and obtain multiple god forms. I guess half Saiyans are have enough potential like Broly that they can get that strong in their regular ki. It's crazy to think that if Gohan trained for a day or Piccolo wished his potential unlocked between Buu saga and BoG that they would've given Beerus a better fight than SSJG.

[Koitsukai]

I thought it was little weird that Gohan could get that strong without God ki while Goku and Vegeta needed to train with Whis for years and obtain multiple god forms. I guess half Saiyans are have enough potential like Broly that they can get that strong in their regular ki. It's crazy to think that if Gohan trained for a day or Piccolo wished his potential unlocked between Buu saga and BoG that they would've given Beerus a better fight than SSJG.

Yeah, that's something that's been going on for a while now with DBS.
Gohan, 17, even Buu had the potential to do much more than SSG. And in the anime, it's implied, literally, every U6 participant can do that, and also Future Trunks.
FWIT, Gohan in the manga needed more than just a day to become relevant again, it seems he had been training for the most part of DBS, making it a little less dumb. The anime made it look as easy as washing your dirty car.

Piccolo had the potential but had to pull a Granola to get there. I guess he had not been training correctly, because he's been training for years straight and his gains were barely noticeable. Solo training really is useless after a certain point, only during the Moro arc, after working with Gohan, he seemed to be helpful again.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo’s Ultimate form making him leap up to SSJB level is pretty weird when Gohan’s was just top Boo Saga top level and had to train to get up to SSJB. Piccolo’s potential is lesser than Gohan’s so it doesn’t justify a bigger boost, though he is much stronger than Base Gohan ever was in the Boo Saga.

I wonder if that could work? Take the “multiplier”* Ultimate Gohan had in the Boo Saga, divide Ultimate Piccolo by it, and find out where he stood throughout Super.

I also wonder if Base Piccolo got boosted by Shenlong. Guru’s ritual didn’t involve any transformations, and at first I thought Ultimate was part of the bonus but it sounds more like Orange was the bonus.

*As a potential unlock there is no multiplier, but as I said it feel right to give Gohan a 1,000x boost and then give Piccolo 1,000,000x.

[ZombieVito]

Gogeta Blue ~ Vegetto Blue >=< Beast Gohan > Cell Max > LSSJ Broly > UI Goku ~ Beyond Limits Jiren > FP Jiren > Merged Zamasu > UI Sign Goku = SSJ2 Kefla > Hit >=< SSJ1 Kefla >= SSJB Goku = SSJB Vegeta = Toppo = Android 17 = Golden Freeza >=< Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1 = Gamma 2 >= Ultimate Piccolo > SSJR Goku Black > SSJG Goku > LSSJ Kale > Future Zamasu

Surprised to see Zamasu that high considering many use episode 110 to nerf him around or below 1st UI Sign Goku.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Piccolo’s Ultimate form making him leap up to SSJB level is pretty weird when Gohan’s was just top Boo Saga top level and had to train to get up to SSJB. Piccolo’s potential is lesser than Gohan’s so it doesn’t justify a bigger boost, though he is much stronger than Base Gohan ever was in the Boo Saga.

I wonder if that could work? Take the “multiplier”* Ultimate Gohan had in the Boo Saga, divide Ultimate Piccolo by it, and find out where he stood throughout Super.

I also wonder if Base Piccolo got boosted by Shenlong. Guru’s ritual didn’t involve any transformations, and at first I thought Ultimate was part of the bonus but it sounds more like Orange was the bonus.

*As a potential unlock there is no multiplier, but as I said it feel right to give Gohan a 1,000x boost and then give Piccolo 1,000,000x.

I think there's a case to be made that Piccolo's potential has never really been fully unlocked like Gohan's was. This was the first time he'd ever gotten his potential unleashed, and this is after many years of training, naturally high power, fusing with Nail, AND fusing with Kami to become the supposed Super Namekian he used to be. And unlike a Saiyan, he can't unlock deeper wells of power via rage and general transformations, at least not by himself.

Although, given how strong his Ultimate and Orange forms ended up being as well as how unique they are, you could make the argument that he's unknowingly been building up his hidden potential all this time and only now tried actually using a special method to unlock what was already there. That, and perhaps the Nameless Namekian may well have had these forms as well once upon a time.

[Koitsukai]

I think Piccolo being fused with Nail is what gives him the edge now. I assume Kattatsu's son (Kami+Pickle) wouldn't have a potential as high as SSB, and neither would Nail, only their "fusion" does.
I also believe all of his past training was like built up inside of him, waiting to be unlocked somehow. For instance, I doubt his unlocked potential back in BoG or Buu arc, would've made him this strong.

The Orange form, if I understood it correctly, was a bonus from Shenron, and not part of his potential.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think Piccolo being fused with Nail is what gives him the edge now. I assume Kattatsu's son (Kami+Pickle) wouldn't have a potential as high as SSB, and neither would Nail, only their "fusion" does.
I also believe all of his past training was like built up inside of him, waiting to be unlocked somehow. For instance, I doubt his unlocked potential back in BoG or Buu arc, would've made him this strong.

The Orange form, if I understood it correctly, was a bonus from Shenron, and not part of his potential.

Of course, I don't think Shenron could simply give Piccolo a form. Maybe he pulled some strings and brought out more of Piccolo's potential than the ordinary Elder Namekian ritual might otherwise have drawn out, allowing him to take on this legendary Namekian form.

[ankokudaishogun]

Is it implied in the movie that Gohan lost his touch?

Initially Piccolo thought Gohan got weak again, but Gohan stopped his punch all cocky "I didn't let myself go" only for Piccolo to hit him anyway.

Which means Gohan DID keep training, but not as much as he could, and was a little rusty, at least his fighting instinct.
him training Makankosappo might have had a part in it: there are only so many hours in the day after all.


Like, he was 80% of his ToP self. But once he got serious because Pan, he went straight back to ToP level.



...now I think about it. I wonder if Cell MAX's soul was killed by Gohan's makankosappo.

• Potential Unleashed Piccolo and MVP-17: about Base Blue.
• Gamma-1: between Base Blue and Complete Blue\Blue KKx10.
• Gamma-2: stronger than Gamma-1 but not Complete Blue strong.
• Ultimate Gohan: about Complete Blue\Blue KK x10
• Piccolo Orange: somehow stronger than Ultimate Gohan
• Gohan Beast: Broly. Because, c'mon, the comparison is obvious.

I like this breakdown of the SSB tier.
I would put Orange Piccolo beyond SSBx20 and SSBE, considering how Z LSSBroly-like he was against Gamma 1.

Dunno, remember that Toriyama usually is always "even 20% power difference means complete domination".

I wouldn't say he was TWICE as powerful as Ultimate Gohan.

[Helios518]

• Potential Unleashed Piccolo and MVP-17: about Base Blue.
• Gamma-1: between Base Blue and Complete Blue\Blue KKx10.
• Gamma-2: stronger than Gamma-1 but not Complete Blue strong.
• Ultimate Gohan: about Complete Blue\Blue KK x10
• Piccolo Orange: somehow stronger than Ultimate Gohan
• Gohan Beast: Broly. Because, c'mon, the comparison is obvious.

I like this breakdown of the SSB tier.
I would put Orange Piccolo beyond SSBx20 and SSBE, considering how Z LSSBroly-like he was against Gamma 1.

Dunno, remember that Toriyama usually is always "even 20% power difference means complete domination".

I wouldn't say he was TWICE as powerful as Ultimate Gohan.

That maybe works for the original manga but DBS is definitely far more lenient in power differences. If it was still a thing, SSBKK Goku would've one shot Hit before he managed to improved. GoD Toppo would've especially one-shot 17 considering the former is more comparable to SSBKKx20/SSBE.