Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

How would you explain base Goku fighting FF Freeza in RoF or copy Vegeta demolishing SS3 Gotenks?

These are valid questions.

To play devil's advocate, what would your answer be to: "How come Base Goku struggled against Lavender, Basil, and Bergamo?" or "How come Base Goku struggled against a U11 Pride Trooper that Android 18 could easily lift"?

Maybe my memory fails me but didn't the episode answered that? The trio's main gimmick is team work so they are troublesome, especially when Goku needs to put up that barrier to not get poisoned all the time.

I guess Goku struggled with the pride trooper because he was caught off guard.

Those are good answers. I would also like to add that Goku expressed conserving energy as opposed to Android 18 who has infinite reserves so she would naturally operate at full power. In contrast, Goku may want to preserve energy in his base form. I'd also like to add that Base Goku was caught in a bear hug and those are pretty potent considering how Zamasu caught both Trunks and Blue Goku in a bear hug. The same goes for Android 16 on Cell.

On a side note, I'm not sure how Copy Vegeta is a reference to Saiyan Beyond God. Vegeta describes it as "A Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God transforming into a Super Saiyan" but that is literally the description used in Resurrection F and Resurrection F firmly established that the Saiyans could use their Super Saiyan forms at the time. In fact, Trunks and Goku both describe Copy Vegeta's form as "Super Saiyan Blue" and correct me if I'm wrong, that was a term that officially coined by Toriyama after Super debuted.

[ZombieVito]

Those are good answers. I would also like to add that Goku expressed conserving energy as opposed to Android 18 who has infinite reserves so she would naturally operate at full power. In contrast, Goku may want to preserve energy in his base form. I'd also like to add that Base Goku was caught in a bear hug and those are pretty potent considering how Zamasu caught both Trunks and Blue Goku in a bear hug. The same goes for Android 16 on Cell.

On a side note, I'm not sure how Copy Vegeta is a reference to Saiyan Beyond God. Vegeta describes it as "A Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God transforming into a Super Saiyan" but that is literally the description used in Resurrection F and Resurrection F firmly established that the Saiyans could use their Super Saiyan forms at the time. In fact, Trunks and Goku both describe Copy Vegeta's form as "Super Saiyan Blue" and correct me if I'm wrong, that was a term that officially coined by Toriyama after Super debuted.

Those are good as well. Goku would definitely want to conserve energy in the ToP. 18 lifting that Trooper is some of an odd ball but I do think 18 grew stronger and reached base tier by the time of the ToP by training with Krillin so it's fine.

[Hugo Boss]

On a side note, I'm not sure how Copy Vegeta is a reference to Saiyan Beyond God. Vegeta describes it as "A Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God transforming into a Super Saiyan" but that is literally the description used in Resurrection F and Resurrection F firmly established that the Saiyans could use their Super Saiyan forms at the time. In fact, Trunks and Goku both describe Copy Vegeta's form as "Super Saiyan Blue" and correct me if I'm wrong, that was a term that officially coined by Toriyama after Super debuted.

Copy Vegeta copied the power of Super Saiyan God that Vegeta had in his base form when he fought Gotenks, since that’s how Vegeta describes it when they were talking about Super Saiyan Blue, referencing how Goku described it to Freeza. The description is a nod to how strong Goku and Vegeta’s regular Saiyan form is being portrayed in those episodes.

Generally speaking, it’s just a situation in which the writer doesn’t acknowledge that Super Saiyan in Champa arc got dialed back down to how it was before or, at least, he forgot that Goku can now use Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God between Base and Super Saiyan Blue.

By the way, 18 does have some impressive showings in the Tournament of Power, even compared to Piccolo, despite not receiving any direct nod about a possible power-up, like 17 did.

[Goku9001]

On a side note, I'm not sure how Copy Vegeta is a reference to Saiyan Beyond God. Vegeta describes it as "A Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God transforming into a Super Saiyan" but that is literally the description used in Resurrection F and Resurrection F firmly established that the Saiyans could use their Super Saiyan forms at the time. In fact, Trunks and Goku both describe Copy Vegeta's form as "Super Saiyan Blue" and correct me if I'm wrong, that was a term that officially coined by Toriyama after Super debuted.

Copy Vegeta copied the power of Super Saiyan God that Vegeta had in his base form when he fought Gotenks, since that’s how Vegeta describes it when they were talking about Super Saiyan Blue, referencing how Goku described it to Freeza. The description is a nod to how strong Goku and Vegeta’s regular Saiyan form is being portrayed in those episodes.

Generally speaking, it’s just a situation in which the writer doesn’t acknowledge that Super Saiyan in Champa arc got dialed back down to how it was before or, at least, he forgot that Goku can now use Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God between Base and Super Saiyan Blue.

By the way, 18 does have some impressive showings in the Tournament of Power, even compared to Piccolo, despite not receiving any direct nod about a possible power-up, like 17 did.

Ah, so you believe Resurrection F in the anime also referenced Saiyan Beyond God. In that case, I can definitely see why you believe that because the descriptions are very similar. The way I see it is that Whis already established that Goku and Vegeta could go Super Saiyan during their training so Super Saiyan was always viewed as an option even when the god forms were present.

It's actually odd to me that there are some inconsistencies present due to having different writers. You'd think they would communicate with each other on this.

As for Android 18, I think she definitely got stronger. That seems to be the case with everyone present and since she's related to 17, she would naturally have a large room for growth.

[Skar]

Supplementary material like video games and those wafer cards always seem to have characters lower than what fans assume. They're only the estimate of however is writing them at the time but I thought that was interesting. I don't know if U6 Saiyans had any. I remember for SH that base Goku and Vegeta were between Piccolo and SSJ Gohan. I don't think Piccolo was implied to have gotten much stronger in the movie continuity before having his potential unlocked. He was weaker than a rusty SSJ Gohan in RoF and only helped teach Vegeta fusion in Broly.

[QuakingStar]

Caulifla wasn't much stronger than SS Goku from Namek Saga in the manga, even getting a comparison from Frieza. In the anime Caulifla was matching a HOLDING back and nowhere near 100% Goku who couldn't even risk maintaining SS3. Again Cabba was not on Vegeta's level, or do you think Gohan actually was SSBKK Goku's level when the anime's narrator said he now rivaled his father?? He told Goku to go full power, Goku goes Blue and Gohan eats his punch and then punches him away easily. He tells Goku to go full power and then Goku uses SSBKK and though it ends in one punch Gohan isn't instantly knocked out. Does this mean Gohan was stronger than SSB Goku? No.

[Skar]

Caulifla wasn't much stronger than SS Goku from Namek Saga in the manga, even getting a comparison from Frieza. In the anime Caulifla was matching a HOLDING back and nowhere near 100% Goku who couldn't even risk maintaining SS3. Again Cabba was not on Vegeta's level, or do you think Gohan actually was SSBKK Goku's level when the anime's narrator said he now rivaled his father?? He told Goku to go full power, Goku goes Blue and Gohan eats his punch and then punches him away easily. He tells Goku to go full power and then Goku uses SSBKK and though it ends in one punch Gohan isn't instantly knocked out. Does this mean Gohan was stronger than SSB Goku? No.

I'm fine with believing base Cabba was close to base Vegeta based on what Vegeta said. It doesn't really tell us much when the disagreement is how strong base Goku and Vegeta are. Comments here have had it range from still weaker than Namek Freeza to maybe several hundred times stronger than any form of Buu.

I was curious if any supplementary information gave any other evidence. The wafer cards aren't a great source but they're an estimate of someone doing the same as us and I don't think anything contradicts them. Base Goku and Vegeta being between Piccolo and SSJ Gohan by SH could work based on their level in the manga before that. I found a card for SSJ Cabba but I'm not sure what other characters were included in that set. If it included a Cell or Buu saga character that could give us an idea where that guy has them at least.

[Goku9001]

My perspective on Frieza's comparison to Caulifa was that Caulifa was boastful about how powerful being a Super Saiyan was in which Frieza acknowledges that by claiming that he's fought multiple in the past. I don't view it as any meaningful power statement beyond Caulifa early attempt at being a Super Saiyan being far greater than Namek Goku's first time being a Super Saiyan. That said, I think it's clear that Caulifa is much stronger than Namke Goku in the manga unless the assumption is that Final Form Frieza in Super was barely any stronger than Final Form Frieza back on Namek. In which case, I would disagree because the anime and movies have been consistent on Frieza being much stronger in that form.

In the manga, my perspective would be that Super Saiyan Caulifa was much stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta but weaker than the Super Saiyans whereas anime Caulifa as a Super Saiyan 2 was initially only a few steps ahead Base Goku at best and then quickly closed in on Super Saiyan 2 Goku as she progressed.

As for when Gohan fought Goku, yes, I think the subtext is that Gohan was powerful enough to warrant Goku's full power hence why Goku eventually resorts to Blue Kaioken to defeat Gohan. That doesn't say anything about how he compares to Blue Goku during the ToP since I believe it's evident that Goku had gotten stronger since his battle with Gohan.

[Hugo Boss]

I found a card for SSJ Cabba but I'm not sure what other characters were included in that set. If it included a Cell or Buu saga character that could give us an idea where that guy has them at least.

Base and SS2 Caulifla

SS2 Cabba

6,000~6,500 is exactly within the range between SS2 and SS3, as usually Goku or Gohan start with 5,700 in SS2, sometimes appearing with 6,000 depending on the set, and Goku starts with 7,200 in SS3, sometimes appearing with 7,400.

Safe to say the general idea is that Bandai stickers have them stronger than SS2 from Boo arc at least, but so far they hadn’t got close to SS3 yet.

[Skar]

6,000~6,500 is exactly within the range between SS2 and SS3, as usually Goku or Gohan start with 5,700 in SS2, sometimes appearing with 6,000 depending on the set, and Goku starts with 7,200 in SS3, sometimes appearing with 7,400.

Safe to say the general idea is that Bandai stickers have them stronger than SS2 from Boo arc at least, but so far they hadn’t got close to SS3 yet.

That's pretty cool. It's still impressive that they could be stronger than the experienced Buu saga SSJ2s after just unlocking the form themselves and none of the special training. Are there any cards for or SSJ1 or SSJ2 Trunks? Toyotaro might have them in the same range as this guy based on the statements in the manga and how a comparison was only made after they transformed.

[ZombieVito]

My perspective on Frieza's comparison to Caulifa was that Caulifa was boastful about how powerful being a Super Saiyan was in which Frieza acknowledges that by claiming that he's fought multiple in the past. I don't view it as any meaningful power statement beyond Caulifa early attempt at being a Super Saiyan being far greater than Namek Goku's first time being a Super Saiyan. That said, I think it's clear that Caulifa is much stronger than Namke Goku in the manga unless the assumption is that Final Form Frieza in Super was barely any stronger than Final Form Frieza back on Namek. In which case, I would disagree because the anime and movies have been consistent on Frieza being much stronger in that form.

In the manga, my perspective would be that Super Saiyan Caulifa was much stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta but weaker than the Super Saiyans whereas anime Caulifa as a Super Saiyan 2 was initially only a few steps ahead Base Goku at best and then quickly closed in on Super Saiyan 2 Goku as she progressed.

As for when Gohan fought Goku, yes, I think the subtext is that Gohan was powerful enough to warrant Goku's full power hence why Goku eventually resorts to Blue Kaioken to defeat Gohan. That doesn't say anything about how he compares to Blue Goku during the ToP since I believe it's evident that Goku had gotten stronger since his battle with Gohan.

Exactly. If SS Caulifla truly was at that level then so would FF Freeza and that's an impossibility.

I do disagree with your placement for anime Caulifla. It's stated that base Goku was only keeping up with her because of skill and Caulifla's lack of it.

[Almighty Majin]

How strong was Piccolo in the anime ToP? He doesn't really have many fights in the arc and the ones he does have give a vague impression of his power. Piccolo fights and defeats Rubalt from U10 which doesn't tell us much. The two fights that seem to give us any idea of how strong he might be are his fights against Gamisaras and the U6 Namekians.

Gamisaras seemed to be giving Android 18 a lot of trouble. Android 18 broke past her limits and defeated giant Ribrianne so this would imply that Piccolo > 18 and Ribrianne in the ToP.

The U6 Namekians seemed to be able to hold their own against Potential Unleashed Gohan when working together. The anime seems to imply that Piccolo is relative, if not on par with them individually. So Piccolo might be like low SSJB level?

We don't really get any significant showing of Piccolo's power in this arc to see how strong he really is outside of his sparring with Gohan early on in the arc where he showcases being above SSJ2 Gohan and being able to catch Potential Unleashed Gohan off-guard.

[ZombieVito]

How strong was Piccolo in the anime ToP? He doesn't really have many fights in the arc and the ones he does have give a vague impression of his power. Piccolo fights and defeats Rubalt from U10 which doesn't tell us much. The two fights that seem to give us any idea of how strong he might be are his fights against Gamisaras and the U6 Namekians.

Gamisaras seemed to be giving Android 18 a lot of trouble. Android 18 broke past her limits and defeated giant Ribrianne so this would imply that Piccolo > 18 and Ribrianne in the ToP.

The U6 Namekians seemed to be able to hold their own against Potential Unleashed Gohan when working together. The anime seems to imply that Piccolo is relative, if not on par with them individually. So Piccolo might be like low SSJB level?

We don't really get any significant showing of Piccolo's power in this arc to see how strong he really is outside of his sparring with Gohan early on in the arc where he showcases being above SSJ2 Gohan and being able to catch Potential Unleashed Gohan off-guard.

He's stronger than Boo arc SS2 tier in episode 88 and then training with Gohan he reaches current base tier.

[Hugo Boss]

Are there any cards for or SSJ1 or SSJ2 Trunks?

So far, I haven’t seen any. There are stickers for SSR Trunks though.

I guess if Goku Black is 6,300, then SS2 Trunks must be 6,100 or 6,200 at best, if given one.

[Goku9001]

My perspective on Frieza's comparison to Caulifa was that Caulifa was boastful about how powerful being a Super Saiyan was in which Frieza acknowledges that by claiming that he's fought multiple in the past. I don't view it as any meaningful power statement beyond Caulifa early attempt at being a Super Saiyan being far greater than Namek Goku's first time being a Super Saiyan. That said, I think it's clear that Caulifa is much stronger than Namke Goku in the manga unless the assumption is that Final Form Frieza in Super was barely any stronger than Final Form Frieza back on Namek. In which case, I would disagree because the anime and movies have been consistent on Frieza being much stronger in that form.

In the manga, my perspective would be that Super Saiyan Caulifa was much stronger than Base Goku and Vegeta but weaker than the Super Saiyans whereas anime Caulifa as a Super Saiyan 2 was initially only a few steps ahead Base Goku at best and then quickly closed in on Super Saiyan 2 Goku as she progressed.

As for when Gohan fought Goku, yes, I think the subtext is that Gohan was powerful enough to warrant Goku's full power hence why Goku eventually resorts to Blue Kaioken to defeat Gohan. That doesn't say anything about how he compares to Blue Goku during the ToP since I believe it's evident that Goku had gotten stronger since his battle with Gohan.

Exactly. If SS Caulifla truly was at that level then so would FF Freeza and that's an impossibility.

I do disagree with your placement for anime Caulifla. It's stated that base Goku was only keeping up with her because of skill and Caulifla's lack of it.

The issue is that people are disregarding Resurrection of F for the manga and then treating Frieza's statement as some concrete power statement that places Base Caulifa below SSJ Namek Goku even though the comparison was strictly between two Super Saiyans because Caulifa was bragging about the form. Unfortunately, the manga never really gave us much to work with but if it is commonly recognized that Final Form Frieza is above Frost, then there is literally no possible way you can have Super Saiyan Caulifa that low on the spectrum. It's impossible.

The only reason I claim that SSJ2 Caulifa was only a few steps ahead of Base Goku is how he manages to at least defend against her attacks. Caulifa is clearly suggested to have the edge and Whis acknowledges Champa's statement when he says "Aren't Super Saiyans supposed to be stronger?". But, Whis also mentions that Goku is a martial artist and as a martial artist, they watch for openings before they strike. When Goku was on the defensive, he was probing for openings because he was weaker than Caulifa. Even when he was weaker, he could still defend himself. Even after Caulifa adapts to Base Goku's movements, she doesn't massacre him. Goku could still take hits. Therefore, he couldn't have been dimensions weaker than SSJ2 Caulifa. Once Caulifa improves and Whis takes note of it, Caulifa's power rises to where she is close to SSJ2 Goku.

Add that to the bucket list of reasons why Base Goku couldn't have been only slightly above the Buu Arc Saiyans.

[Skar]

So far, I haven’t seen any. There are stickers for SSR Trunks though.

I guess if Goku Black is 6,300, then SS2 Trunks must be 6,100 or 6,200 at best, if given one.

Ah ok. It seems this guy's estimates would work in the manga if the statements about SSJ Caulifa and SSJ2 Trunks are taken at face value. It seems unlikely this guy would be completely wrong for every number he had AND Toyotaro meant something else with those statements. Maybe we get a third source supporting one or the other possibility.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong was Piccolo in the anime ToP? He doesn't really have many fights in the arc and the ones he does have give a vague impression of his power. Piccolo fights and defeats Rubalt from U10 which doesn't tell us much. The two fights that seem to give us any idea of how strong he might be are his fights against Gamisaras and the U6 Namekians.

Gamisaras seemed to be giving Android 18 a lot of trouble. Android 18 broke past her limits and defeated giant Ribrianne so this would imply that Piccolo > 18 and Ribrianne in the ToP.

The U6 Namekians seemed to be able to hold their own against Potential Unleashed Gohan when working together. The anime seems to imply that Piccolo is relative, if not on par with them individually. So Piccolo might be like low SSJB level?

We don't really get any significant showing of Piccolo's power in this arc to see how strong he really is outside of his sparring with Gohan early on in the arc where he showcases being above SSJ2 Gohan and being able to catch Potential Unleashed Gohan off-guard.

Piccolo looks about as strong as Base Gohan most of the ToP, and if anything Gohan was a bit better against the Namekians before anyone powered up. With the FP Nameks I don’t remember Piccolo did anything special besides not being one shot, Gohan even had to save him at least once. I wouldn’t say Base Gohan was = Base Goku despite their fight since SSJ2 Goku matched Ultimate Gohan at first, so Base Goku > Boo Saga Ultimate Gohan > Piccolo is still possible.

Since the narrator says Gohan regained his old Boo Saga power, I think there’s a cap to Piccolo’s power. SSJ3 Gotenks level is good for him. Gamisaras caught 18 off guard since she couldn’t sense his Ki, so I wouldn’t hold that fight against her.

Caulifla wasn't much stronger than SS Goku from Namek Saga in the manga,

Ch. 37, pg. 10.4-6
Context: Freeza survives Caulifla’s surprise energy attack
Freeza: “Interesting… Yes, you may indeed be different than the other Saiyans. The first Super Saiyan I ever fought wasn’t nearly this strong.”

[QuakingStar]

It doesn't matter how you spin it, Goku in the ToP when he was fighting them later was low on stamina and energy, then as a SS2 he was casually fighting both Caulifla SS2 Kale. He couldn't even maintain SS3 for longer than a few seconds. Maybe Cell Saga level was lowballing it, but they most definitely are not Goku and Vegeta's equals.

[ZombieVito]

Since the narrator says Gohan regained his old Boo Saga power, I think there’s a cap to Piccolo’s power. SSJ3 Gotenks level is good for him. Gamisaras caught 18 off guard since she couldn’t sense his Ki, so I wouldn’t hold that fight against her.

Is it? I can't imagine Gotenks doing what Piccolo did to Goku in episode 90 with that explosive wave. Piccolo also didn't seem THAT far of base Gohan during the ToP.

It doesn't matter how you spin it, Goku in the ToP when he was fighting them later was low on stamina and energy, then as a SS2 he was casually fighting both Caulifla SS2 Kale. He couldn't even maintain SS3 for longer than a few seconds. Maybe Cell Saga level was lowballing it, but they most definitely are not Goku and Vegeta's equals.

SS2 Goku by the ToP is dimensions apart from the SS2 of the Boo arc and SS2 Caulifla was not THAT far behind him. Also SS2 Kale actually made Goku use SSG.

[QuakingStar]

Since the narrator says Gohan regained his old Boo Saga power, I think there’s a cap to Piccolo’s power. SSJ3 Gotenks level is good for him. Gamisaras caught 18 off guard since she couldn’t sense his Ki, so I wouldn’t hold that fight against her.

Is it? I can't imagine Gotenks doing what Piccolo did to Goku in episode 90 with that explosive wave. Piccolo also didn't seem THAT far of base Gohan during the ToP.

It doesn't matter how you spin it, Goku in the ToP when he was fighting them later was low on stamina and energy, then as a SS2 he was casually fighting both Caulifla SS2 Kale. He couldn't even maintain SS3 for longer than a few seconds. Maybe Cell Saga level was lowballing it, but they most definitely are not Goku and Vegeta's equals.

SS2 Goku by the ToP is dimensions apart from the SS2 of the Boo arc and SS2 Caulifla was not THAT far behind him. Also SS2 Kale actually made Goku use SSG.

It was SS2 Kale and SS2 Caulifla's teamwork that made him use SSG. Again he was also exhausted to the point he couldn't keep SS3 for more than a few seconds or risk having the rest of his energy and stamina gone.