Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

She literally can't beat a tired SSG Goku with a stronger form.

Yes, I did address that: she couldn't beat SS2 Goku either, just a bit before.

Which makes no sense unless she was getting stronger over time.

And given we have been told she had an increase in power, with no reason to believe it a lie, it can only mean she was learning to harness her newfound power.

I mean: it COULD be still mean she was "just" God-class, but it wouldn't fit with everybody's reaction to her berserker power

As for Goku's use of Blue: its Perfect Ki Control™ means it's the best for for everything higher than SS1 as he can easily Hold Back™ as necessary.
Which makes it a nightmare for powerscaling.

She technically did beat SS2 Goku since he was forced to transform into SSG to continue fighting.

[ankokudaishogun]

She technically did beat SS2 Goku since he was forced to transform into SSG to continue fighting.

True: but it took her quite a bit.

If we see their fight as her getting stronger over time, it makes much more sense.

We even have an example of having trouble with too much power with Kefla who, in the begin, has problems in completely controlling her power and ends up almost tripping a couple times.
And she kept getting stronger over the fight too.

Another interesting difference in Manga\Anime versions: Kale in the manga would get weaker over time, while in the anime she kept getting stronger

[QuakingStar]

Kale in the manga was hurting herself because she could not control her power at all, that's why she was losing power after she reached her second stage of her unique SS.

[ZombieVito]

She technically did beat SS2 Goku since he was forced to transform into SSG to continue fighting.

True: but it took her quite a bit.

If we see their fight as her getting stronger over time, it makes much more sense.

We even have an example of having trouble with too much power with Kefla who, in the begin, has problems in completely controlling her power and ends up almost tripping a couple times.
And she kept getting stronger over the fight too.

Another interesting difference in Manga\Anime versions: Kale in the manga would get weaker over time, while in the anime she kept getting stronger

Nothing suggests she got any stronger after unlocking SS2.

[ankokudaishogun]

Nothing suggests she got any stronger after unlocking SS2.

We have been told so by reputable in-universe sources.

[ZombieVito]

Nothing suggests she got any stronger after unlocking SS2.

We have been told so by reputable in-universe sources.

You must have seen a different episode 114 lol.

[Hugo Boss]

Nothing suggests she got any stronger after unlocking SS2.

We have been told so by reputable in-universe sources.

You must have seen a different episode 114 lol.

It’s told in their entire fight that both parties were getting stronger multiple times despite not changing forms.

[ZombieVito]

We have been told so by reputable in-universe sources.

You must have seen a different episode 114 lol.

It’s told in their entire fight that both parties were getting stronger multiple times despite not changing forms.

No? After Tenshinhan says Kale got stronger, that's it. There's no more statements of her getting stronger after unlocking SS2.

[Hugo Boss]

You must have seen a different episode 114 lol.

It’s told in their entire fight that both parties were getting stronger multiple times despite not changing forms.

No? After Tenshinhan says Kale got stronger, that's it. There's no more statements of her getting stronger after unlocking SS2.

Kale and Caulifla’s fight with Goku has several hints at dynamic growth beyond Super Saiyan forms. For instance, dialogue consistently points out their increasing power and their ability to match and pressure each other, even as Goku regains stamina. Kale’s progression isn’t solely tied to unlocking SS2 but is implied through their combat adaptability. Growth isn’t always stated outright; sometimes, it’s shown in how they perform against their opponent.

(V.g. SS2 Kale prompts SS2 Goku to power-up to rival them, which prompts SS2 Kale and SS2 Caulifla to pressure him again, which prompts Goku to use SSGod to disrupt their combo, which prompts SS2 Kale to take the lead in the fight). If it wasn’t for Caulifla, Kale could eventually surpass SSGod Goku, since her true strength is far above that, but that would obviously sideline her partner.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So what’s the hierarchy here? SSJ2 Goku vs the girls is stronger than SSJB Goku from episode 100? What about Goku vs Jiren being the big battle of the strongest?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Generally, I've tried not to ascribe massive power increases overall throughout the Tournament of Power.

SSB at the end of the Tournament of Power (and by Broly and Super Hero) to me doesn't really come across as leaps and bounds stronger than before, and the same for other forms.

None of this "SSB became stronger than SSB/Kaioken" nonsense, just a slight increase at best across the board for the characters.

[QuakingStar]

You all are forgetting that Goku was somehow gaining back stamina and key throughout, Frieza and Vegeta did at seperate points give him Ki as well. So vs Caulifla and Kale he was simply gaining back stamina and ki as he fought(stupid as fuck imo) therefor he was able to put out more power as time went on, culminating in him being able to use SSBKKx20 against Kefla.

[ZombieVito]

Generally, I've tried not to ascribe massive power increases overall throughout the Tournament of Power.

SSB at the end of the Tournament of Power (and by Broly and Super Hero) to me doesn't really come across as leaps and bounds stronger than before, and the same for other forms.

None of this "SSB became stronger than SSB/Kaioken" nonsense, just a slight increase at best across the board for the characters.

Same.

I only think now that they got a boost by the end of the ToP.

SSBE Vegeta against GoD Toppo and UI Goku against LB Jiren.

[Hugo Boss]

So what’s the hierarchy here? SSJ2 Goku vs the girls is stronger than SSJB Goku from episode 100? What about Goku vs Jiren being the big battle of the strongest?

The idea is that power progression reflects Goku’s return to form. Goku vs. Kale and Caulifla shows a recovering Goku tapping into more of his potential, since Goku was weakened due to stamina loss after his first battle encounter with Jiren, whereas, in episode #100, Goku was at 100% stamina. Goku vs. Jiren was framed as the peak, with Goku having reached a level far beyond these other fights. So, the hierarchy isn’t perfectly linear escalation across episodes.

Recovered SSBlue Goku (DBS Ep. #115) > SSBlue Goku (DBS Ep. #109) > SSBlue Goku (DBS Ep. #100) > Weakened SSBlue Goku (DBS Ep. #115) >>>>

Recovered SSGod Goku (DBS Ep. #115) > SSGod Goku (DBS Ep. #109) > Weakened SSGod Goku (DBS Ep. #114) >>>>

SS3 Goku (DBS Ep. #113) > Recovered SS2 Goku (DBS Ep. #114) > SS2 Goku (DBS Ep. #109) > SS2 Goku (DBS Ep. #100) > Weakened SS2 Goku (DBS Ep. #113)

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So what’s the hierarchy here? SSJ2 Goku vs the girls is stronger than SSJB Goku from episode 100? What about Goku vs Jiren being the big battle of the strongest?

The idea is that power progression reflects Goku’s return to form. Goku vs. Kale and Caulifla shows a recovering Goku tapping into more of his potential, since Goku was weakened due to stamina loss after his first battle encounter with Jiren, whereas, in episode #100, Goku was at 100% stamina. Goku vs. Jiren was framed as the peak, with Goku having reached a level far beyond these other fights. So, the hierarchy isn’t perfectly linear escalation across episodes.

Recovered SSBlue Goku (DBS Ep. #115) > SSBlue Goku (DBS Ep. #109) > SSBlue Goku (DBS Ep. #100) > Weakened SSBlue Goku (DBS Ep. #115) >>>>

Recovered SSGod Goku (DBS Ep. #115) > SSGod Goku (DBS Ep. #109) > Weakened SSGod Goku (DBS Ep. #114) >>>>

SS3 Goku (DBS Ep. #113) > Recovered SS2 Goku (DBS Ep. #114) > SS2 Goku (DBS Ep. #109) > SS2 Goku (DBS Ep. #100) > Weakened SS2 Goku (DBS Ep. #113)

What about Kale? How can Goku lose to her in SSJB earlier but beat a stronger form of her with SSJG?

SSJG (114/115) > SSJ2 Kale > LSSJ Kale > SSJB (100) or at least SSJG (100), no?

[Koitsukai]

The only way to make sense of Kale is to assume Goku was so suppressed in Blue that his power output was barely scratching the surface of his SSG form. So, when he went all out as SSG, he was beyond LSS Kale and the even stronger Controlled SS Kale... and also his own SSB KKH, that supressed or not, should not be something you can just walk off.
Even though, and now I'm relying on my memory, Golden Freeza was having issues as well, or was that a manga thing? in any case, then Freeza was also on energy saving mode.

Either that, or after the 107 special, Goku's power kept growing and growing, and by the time he faced Kale and Caulifla, his SSG was above his SSB form from 15 minutes ago. That's at least a 10x boost in mere minutes...

Can anybody come up with a third option? unfortunately, there's no circumventing Tenshinhan's line about Kale becoming even stronger after she controlled the form.

[ZombieVito]

The only way to make sense of Kale is to assume Goku was so suppressed in Blue that his power output was barely scratching the surface of his SSG form. So, when he went all out as SSG, he was beyond LSS Kale and the even stronger Controlled SS Kale... and also his own SSB KKH, that supressed or not, should not be something you can just walk off.
Even though, and now I'm relying on my memory, Golden Freeza was having issues as well, or was that a manga thing? in any case, then Freeza was also on energy saving mode.

Either that, or after the 107 special, Goku's power kept growing and growing, and by the time he faced Kale and Caulifla, his SSG was above his SSB form from 15 minutes ago. That's at least a 10x boost in mere minutes...

Can anybody come up with a third option? unfortunately, there's no circumventing Tenshinhan's line about Kale becoming even stronger after she controlled the form.

There's no need. The show answers it.

Goku doesn't use his full power until his fight with Jiren in episode 109 so logically he was suppressed in episode 100.

He also uses SSB against Ribrianne in episode 109 when she got her butterfly form. Is she SSB tier too?

[QuakingStar]

When he first fights LSS Kale, he says he will need more power and transforms from SS2 to SSB. This means at bare minimum Kale was a SSG level threat or higher when she first transformed. A more simple answer is that the anime is inconsistent as hell but what's new.

[ZombieVito]

When he first fights LSS Kale, he says he will need more power and transforms from SS2 to SSB. This means at bare minimum Kale was a SSG level threat or higher when she first transformed. A more simple answer is that the anime is inconsistent as hell but what's new.

More like high SS3 tier since her stronger form is low SSG tier.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

He also uses SSB against Ribrianne in episode 109 when she got her butterfly form. Is she SSB tier too?

Didn’t he just use Blue to kick her away to fight Jiren? I always saw that scene as if Goku got serious and said “Get off, the adults are talking.”