Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Didn’t he just use Blue to kick her away to fight Jiren? I always saw that scene as if Goku got serious and said “Get off, the adults are talking.”

Nope. Goku only approaches Jiren after he starts walking to him after Ribrianne runs away after bumping into him.

But my point still stands. Why use SSB? He can easily do the same with SS1 or 2.

[Hugo Boss]

What about Kale? How can Goku lose to her in SSJB earlier but beat a stronger form of her with SSJG?

SSJG (114/115) > SSJ2 Kale > LSSJ Kale > SSJB (100) or at least SSJG (100), no?

Kale’s inconsistent power scaling is the core issue here. In Ep. #100, her raw berserker energy overpowered Goku despite his use of SSB. However, by Ep. #114, Kale had achieved greater control over her power through her SS2 form, which should theoretically be weaker than her earlier rampage. Yet, this controlled state is portrayed as more dangerous in the narrative.

But we can still assume Kale was subconsciously limiting her output to synchronize with Caulifla, so her apparent power in Ep. #114 would seem lower despite her improved control. This would explain why Goku, even in his weaker SSG state, was overpowering her. In contrast, in Ep. #100, Kale was fully unleashed and not bound by teamwork dynamics, allowing her raw power to overwhelm Goku’s SSB.

Spoiler:

Full Power SS Kefla > SSBKaioken Goku > Full Power LSS Kale (Ep. #100) > Recovered SSBlue Goku (DBS Ep. #115) > Initial SS Kefla > SSBlue Goku (DBS Ep. #109) > SSBlue Goku (DBS Ep. #100) > Weakened SSBlue Goku (DBS Ep. #115) >>>>

Recovered SSGod Goku (DBS Ep. #115) > SSGod Goku (DBS Ep. #109) > Weakened SSGod Goku (DBS Ep. #114) > Powered-up SS2 Kale >>>>

SS3 Goku (DBS Ep. #113) > Recovered SS2 Goku (DBS Ep. #114) > Initial SS2 Kale = Full Power SS2 Caulifla > SS2 Goku (DBS Ep. #109) > Powered-up SS2 Caulifla > SS Kale > SS2 Goku (DBS Ep. #100) > Weakened SS2 Goku (DBS Ep. #113) > Initial SS2 Caulifla

This interpretation maintains narrative coherence (SSB being inherently stronger than SSG) without dismissing Kale’s progress in controlling her power. From a storytelling perspective, it ensures Caulifla remained relevant to the fight. If Kale had fought at her full potential, she would have far outclassed Caulifla, leaving her as dead weight and undermining the buildup to their fusion.

[ankokudaishogun]

But my point still stands. Why use SSB? He can easily do the same with SS1 or 2.

Because Anime Blue is the better form for most situations where he might need more than basic SS1.

It does cost more stamina, but the Perfect Ki Control lets him adjust the power as needed through the whole SS1-SSBlue range.
Transforming up&down multiple times is most likely more expensive than turning into Blue and just adjusting the power.
(Against Caulifla\Kale, though, he was ALSO showing-off\sort-of Teaching Mode)

In contrast, in Ep. #100, Kale was fully unleashed and not bound by teamwork dynamics, allowing her raw power to overwhelm Goku’s SSB.

We can also add Goku's initial underestimation of her rising-over-time power in #100

But yeah, I agree the "short" version is that while SS2 Kale had more power than Berserker Kale, she was held back by circumstances(be them her learning how to use it, or having to sync with Caulifla) thus resulting in a "worse" showing than with her weaker Berserker power.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Didn’t he just use Blue to kick her away to fight Jiren? I always saw that scene as if Goku got serious and said “Get off, the adults are talking.”

Nope. Goku only approaches Jiren after he starts walking to him after Ribrianne runs away after bumping into him.

But my point still stands. Why use SSB? He can easily do the same with SS1 or 2.

Still sounds like he just finished her off to get to Jiren. It's not about just kicking her away, he'd done that multiple times throughout their fight, it's about showing how out of her league she is compared to Goku and Jiren.

[Yuji]

I've been thinking about how strong fusions are and I've come across this question, did Gogeta need SS4 to defeat Omega?

So SS Vegetto in Z was much stronger than SS3 Goku. In the manga it's not explicit, but the anime and guidebooks make it clear even base Vegetto was. SS Gogeta in Fusion Reborn should also be comparable.

In Super, base Kefla is strong enough to humiliate SSG Goku. SS Kefla pushes both SSB Goku in the anime and CSSB-tier Ultimate Gohan in the manga.

Base Gogeta does better against SS Broly than SSB Goku and Vegeta did, and even if you don't want to grant him that power, at the very least he was way stronger than both of them in regular Super Saiyan.

Even Vegetto, although he went Blue right away, in the manga he managed to blast half of Zamasu's torso away in base (presumably?). The same question could be posed to Vegetto, if he needed Blue (in the manga at least) at all to defeat Zamasu.

Even Gotenks you can argue via some guidebooks that he was approaching or surpassing SS2 Vegeta in base form. At the very least, his regular SS is already comparable to Fat Boo and SS3 Goku by proxy.

So by the same logic, and considering the exponential nature of fusions, SS4 was overkill for Gogeta. Considering SS4 Goku and Vegeta were basically handling Omega about as well as SSB Goku and Vegeta handled Broly, then wouldn't base or SS be enough? Omega was 10x stronger than regular Syn, who was already relative to the SS4s, so at most he was maybe a dozen times stronger than SS4 Goku and Vegeta. SS4 Gogeta has to be at least a few hundreds or thousands of times stronger than that.

So which is the weakest form Gogeta could have used to beat Omega? I'd say SS and I'm trying not to argue base form.

[Koitsukai]

In theory, yes, but in practice Gogeta blasted his strongest attack and only managed to de-power Omega back into Ih Shenron, when that attack alone should've left not trace of him at all.
SS3 Gogeta would've needed more than one ultimate attack just to revert him back to Ih Shenron, and with the time limit, I wonder if that would've been even possible.

This fight fits perfectly with Kaboom's fusion theory. Omega wasn't fighting a SS4 x SS4.

[QuakingStar]

In DBS the fusion formula for both Potara and Fusion Dance is A + B x "tens of times".

THEN you add the transformation multipliers on top when they transform.

SS Kefla took SSBKKx20 Goku out with one kick and was hoping he would get back up. Against Omega, Gogeta was playing around too much and right when he got serious the fusion came undone.

"tens of times" can cover up to between 100 and 10,000 in Japan.. or something.

So base Gogeta could very well be Goku plus Gogeta x 10,000.

[Hugo Boss]

Based on the vast increase in power that fusion provides, it’s reasonable to suggest that SS4 Gogeta’s power against Omega Shenron was overkill. Omega was far stronger than Syn Shenron and surpassed SS4 Goku and Vegeta individually, but the gap between Omega and Gogeta would still be immense that even in lower forms Gogeta would remain competitive.

In theory, Omega Shenron’s strength (about 10x Syn Shenron and still significantly stronger than either SS4 Goku or Vegeta) likely matches SS Gogeta. This balances well with fusion lore, where transformations amplify an already overwhelming base but are necessary for decisive victories. SS4 Gogeta, then, represents a decisive trump card.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Alternatively, the writers. While it's tempting to make all stories smooth and consistent, GT does too much of its own thing with the established lore.

"tens of times" can cover up to between 100 and 10,000 in Japan.. or something.

Nope. From 100 and beyond they start saying hundreds of times.

[QuakingStar]

Alternatively, the writers. While it's tempting to make all stories smooth and consistent, GT does too much of its own thing with the established lore.

"tens of times" can cover up to between 100 and 10,000 in Japan.. or something.

Nope. From 100 and beyond they start saying hundreds of times.

Considering proper fusees are relative in power, this would actually make Base Gogeta 200x stronger than base Goku or base Vegeta. But considering SS Gogeta was tied with SS Broly it doesn't add up.

[Koitsukai]

There's no set multiplier for fusions, those going around are just some math equation NOT-Toriyama came up with. Fusions are as strong as the story needs them to be at any given time. That's why it never adds up, there's only one vague rule: fusion's base being somewhat stronger than the fusee's strongest forms.
And maybe that the transformation multipliers aren't as great as for a regular saiyan, but that is something that has only been observed, probably not some authorial intent but the result of not trying to bloat things too much. The authors' thoughts are usually opposite to the fans', we highball, they lowball. After all, fusion only needs to be stronger than the enemy.

Not even fusion itself is subject to logic, SS4 Gogeta was tanking Omega's attacks like they were those of a 2 year old but couldn't finish him off with his greatest attack. ??
Vegito Blue can't even use once his strongest attack without defusing but Gogeta Blue can spam all of them without any issues. ??
There's always a story factor involved with fusion that hand ties and prevents them from being a "real" thing.

[QuakingStar]

Yes story wise the fusions are always as strong as they need to be which makes even base fusions stronger than the fusees strongest forms. I think we all know that by now and to me, I'm actually getting tired of fusions.. it's like a get out of jail free card 9/10.

[picc]

What's the lowest form we think Goku could use to beat ToP Jiren

- Now
- Right after Black Freeza appeared

?

[Hugo Boss]

What's the lowest form we think Goku could use to beat ToP Jiren

- Now
- Right after Black Freeza appeared

?

Goku’s growth since the ToP and his improved mastery over Ultra Instinct make it plausible that True Ultra Instinct (calm base-like state) could be enough. This form allows him to balance the instinctive clarity of Ultra Instinct with his battle-driven Saiyan spirit, making his combat style more adaptable and effective compared to the traditional Angel-inspired approach.

[ZombieVito]

What's the lowest form we think Goku could use to beat ToP Jiren

- Now
- Right after Black Freeza appeared

?

UI Sign.

[Mystic-han]

What's the lowest form we think Goku could use to beat ToP Jiren

- Now
- Right after Black Freeza appeared

?

Going by feats and statements , Ui SSB Goku

To be safe , regular Ui sign Goku

[Yuji]

What's the lowest form we think Goku could use to beat ToP Jiren

- Now
- Right after Black Freeza appeared

?

It's still MUI. As of Superhero, Jiren is still an ideal they look up to.

[DBZ Macky]

What's the lowest form we think Goku could use to beat ToP Jiren

- Now
- Right after Black Freeza appeared

?

I think it's still MUI.

Furthermore, I think as of Daima:
Goku still needs Super Saiyan to beat Namek Frieza as stated by Beerus
Goku still needs Super Saiyan 2 to beat Super Perfect Cell as shown when he needs it to fight characters like the Tamagamis
Goku still needs Super Saiyan 3 to beat Buu as shown by the fact that Vegeta needed the form to fight a buffed up Tamagami 2

I personally feel unless shown or stated explicitly, Goku doesn't get so much stronger that he can beat opponents he fought in higher forms in lower forms. Though, yeah, perhaps the difference between UI Sign and MUI isn't that great given they're basically the same thing.

[picc]

What about Granolah saga Goku fighting the clone evenly while using UI with Blue, and successfully lasting against Gas for a long period while playing defense, with just Blue?

[Yuji]

What about Granolah saga Goku fighting the clone evenly while using UI with Blue, and successfully lasting against Gas for a long period while playing defense, with just Blue?

In the manga, there doesn't seem to be a huge difference between Blue, Sign and UI. At most a x5 or x10 difference from Blue to MUI. So with proper strategy and martial arts skill, Goku can close the gap. Even in Superhero, the Gammas were damaging Cell Max.

It's mostly due to Toei's SSB Kaioken multipliers that necessarily dictates that MUI is a huge boost over Blue. As well as Heroes equating MUI with a Blue Fusion tier boost.