Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Benjamin-Simons-91]

So we are supposed to believe that Piccolo and Gohan managed to catch up to the soaring heights Goku and Vegeta and Broly via the short span of events in the movie portion of "Super Hero"? This makes them able to mop the floor with Jiren, and Moro. So flawed writing.

Gohan was already relative to Goku's SSG/SSB forms even in the ToP and Moro arcs.

Yeah, sort of. But Piccolo? He was weaker than Shisami by Toriyama's continuity a few years back, then he was a punching bag for Frost, then his power soared but still wasn't near Gohan's for the ToP, Broly, Moro, etc. and now he can stomp Jiren? That's lame.

[Koitsukai]

DB always had insane gains. Piccolo couldn't even make Raditz budge and like a year later he was forcing Freeza into his 3rd form.

In fact, this time it makes more sense. A wish-granting dragon created by majins gifted him the power.

[Miracles]

Bottom line is. Broly was never near Beerus. No one was or is.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So we are supposed to believe that Piccolo and Gohan managed to catch up to the soaring heights Goku and Vegeta and Broly via the short span of events in the movie portion of "Super Hero"? This makes them able to mop the floor with Jiren, and Moro. So flawed writing.

That’s the point of having a wish granting dragon around. Fot that and for cosmetics.

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

Fun fact, the number of pages here is the same as the year Dragon Ball Super ended.

[Miracles]

Did you see the colored version images of chapter 103?

It's a done deal. Broly is using the form he used against Gogeta but a stronger version [controlled].
Broly and Gogeta are nothing in the DB universe.

[QuakingStar]

Toriyama made it pretty clear with his comments from the beginning, Gohan is the one he sees as being the strongest in terms of potential and power just that it's locked inside him for the most part. With Beast he is better able to bring all of that out, so Broly with his Legendary Super Saiyan(Controlled) being at a disadvantage still is fine. Piccolo being considered rivals to them now is also great, Piccolo deserves it. The confirmation that they were all in their strongest forms just sealed the deal even further.

Once Gohan fully masters Beast he will be able to use it to its full potential without the stamina drain problem and without needing to stop at a certain point before he snaps. Broly once he fully masters his LSS Controlled will also be use his forms full potential.

1. Gohan
2. Broly.
3, Vegeta/Goku
4. Piccolo

In terms of power, this is how it goes. If you include skill, ability, and battle smarts then the list gets more murky as Gohan and Broly are the ones who lack experience in comparison to the other three.

Yeah, but yeah this means Beast Gohan would have neg diffed the ToP, and Moro, and low diffed Gas and Granolah.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Revisiting this all this time later, I’m genuinely starting to think controlled Kale > berserker Kale, and Tien was most likely comparing controlled Kale to her normal SSJ self.

Despite all the anti feats, Kale’s power is always portrayed as an absolute game changer. Every single time she went berserk she caught Jiren’s attention in some way. Even in her rematch with Goku her power made Vegeta and Toppo stop fighting and comment on how huge it was. I don’t think Controlled Kale or even SSJG Goku get that reaction.

Having Berserker Kale also fits with the manga. While the manga and anime have no business matching each other, it’s always good when they do.

Now my only issue with the anime is SSJ Kefla… SSJBKK Goku beat the Sonic rings out of her, and her victory was made out to be a stamina thing (The human says she’s beyond her limit, and right before she KO’d Goku Whis said that was Goku’s last chance before gassing out). But then Goku goes UI and Whis says it’s because she has the power of that Spirit Bomb? Huh? Maybe Whis is talking about how both were powers that pushed Goku past his limit, instead of a proper power comparison? Sounds like a stretch, but not the first time DB fans stretch a power line into other meanings (Piccolo vs Shin).

Finally, there’s SSJ2 Kefla. I don’t doubt she’s genuinely Sign level, but I’ve seen some people suggest UI Goku here was weaker than he was vs Jiren, since he’s fatigued here. Is this supported? In the actual fight it looked like Goku was stronger than ever.

[Koitsukai]

Revisiting this all this time later, I’m genuinely starting to think controlled Kale > berserker Kale, and Tien was most likely comparing controlled Kale to her normal SSJ self.

Despite all the anti feats, Kale’s power is always portrayed as an absolute game changer. Every single time she went berserk she caught Jiren’s attention in some way. Even in her rematch with Goku her power made Vegeta and Toppo stop fighting and comment on how huge it was. I don’t think Controlled Kale or even SSJG Goku get that reaction.

Having Berserker Kale also fits with the manga. While the manga and anime have no business matching each other, it’s always good when they do.

Now my only issue with the anime is SSJ Kefla… SSJBKK Goku beat the Sonic rings out of her, and her victory was made out to be a stamina thing (The human says she’s beyond her limit, and right before she KO’d Goku Whis said that was Goku’s last chance before gassing out). But then Goku goes UI and Whis says it’s because she has the power of that Spirit Bomb? Huh? Maybe Whis is talking about how both were powers that pushed Goku past his limit, instead of a proper power comparison? Sounds like a stretch, but not the first time DB fans stretch a power line into other meanings (Piccolo vs Shin).

Finally, there’s SSJ2 Kefla. I don’t doubt she’s genuinely Sign level, but I’ve seen some people suggest UI Goku here was weaker than he was vs Jiren, since he’s fatigued here. Is this supported? In the actual fight it looked like Goku was stronger than ever.

Re: Controlled vs Berserker.

But was there a regular SS Kale? didn't she just go straight into Broly mode? Tenshinhan can only compare her to Freak Kale.
Perhaps, it's a matter of efficiency. SS2 Kale wields her power better than Berseker Kale and can deal more damage while having less power. I don't recall Ten's line, so I'm not sure if it supports this interpretation. The Cell arc has things similar to this(Huge Trunks and FPSS), although with some differences. So, it being the case wouldn't be strange in this franchise.

I don't have a problem with SS2 > Berserker and it wouldn't really be an issue if it hadn't been for the fact that the LSS mode was treated, as you said, as a big fucking deal that even Jiren has to pay attention to (and the need to pretend SSB was extremely suppressed when facing Kale).
I would assume the idea was to have LSS Kale as her strongest form, but it got changed along the way, disregarding all the things that don't really add up. It's convoluted, but at the end of the day how the forms compare was stated.

RE: Genki Dama and Kefla.

I always assumed her power was as big as that genki dama's, taking that statement at face value, which adds up if she was strong enough to put down Blue Kaioken as easily.
I guess it shows the power of Kefla, as the Genki Dama, breaks Goku's threshold to go beyond his limits.

Re: UI vs Kefla.

It's not just supported, it is stated that 2nd UI is stronger than before. Probably, to keep Jirens introduction still be a big deal, it should not have been stronger than before, but it helped cement the notion that saiyans grow stronger mid battle and that Goku keeps getting closer to mastering the technique.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Re: Controlled vs Berserker.

But was there a regular SS Kale? didn't she just go straight into Broly mode? Tenshinhan can only compare her to Freak Kale.
Perhaps, it's a matter of efficiency. SS2 Kale wields her power better than Berseker Kale and can deal more damage while having less power. I don't recall Ten's line, so I'm not sure if it supports this interpretation. The Cell arc has things similar to this(Huge Trunks and FPSS), although with some differences. So, it being the case wouldn't be strange in this franchise.

I don't have a problem with SS2 > Berserker and it wouldn't really be an issue if it hadn't been for the fact that the LSS mode was treated, as you said, as a big fucking deal that even Jiren has to pay attention to (and the need to pretend SSB was extremely suppressed when facing Kale).
I would assume the idea was to have LSS Kale as her strongest form, but it got changed along the way, disregarding all the things that don't really add up. It's convoluted, but at the end of the day how the forms compare was stated.

Yes, she first unlocks it vs the Pride Troopers and uses it vs SSJ2 Goku a bit. It has a yellow-ish tone as opposed to the full green of berserk and controlled berserk.

I’ve thought about the efficiency angle, but Tien straight up says “Her energy has increased”. And LSSJ Kale getting hyped in that very same episode very much means the writers didn’t change their minds about her power.

RE: Genki Dama and Kefla.

I always assumed her power was as big as that genki dama's, taking that statement at face value, which adds up if she was strong enough to put down Blue Kaioken as easily.
I guess it shows the power of Kefla, as the Genki Dama, breaks Goku's threshold to go beyond his limits.

But she didn’t beat Goku easily. It’s easy to forget (I did), but Kefla was the underdog here, not Goku. She was fighting evenly with SSJB Goku and then was dominated by SSJBKK Goku. It was down to Goku vs his own stamina until Kefla randomly one shot him.

Maybe she got a power boost, or maybe she was getting used to her new power?

Re: UI vs Kefla.

It's not just supported, it is stated that 2nd UI is stronger than before. Probably, to keep Jirens introduction still be a big deal, it should not have been stronger than before, but it helped cement the notion that saiyans grow stronger mid battle and that Goku keeps getting closer to mastering the technique.

Yeah, there’s nowhere to go with this one. UI Goku was operating at FP regardless of fatigue.

[DBZ Macky]

It's been a while since I, or anyone else here I guess, have posted here but now that we know for a fact that the 2015 DBS Anime is done and is being remade into a slightly different version, can we acknowledge and appreciate the fact that UI Goku, Jiren and Broly ARE stronger than Beerus and the other GoDs in that particular continuity?

[Hugo Boss]

I remember the anime awfully avoiding crossing the line into explicitly placing them above Beerus. He is repeatedly framed as occasionally shocked whenever someone strong appears, but he was never shown going all out or being surpassed on screen.

Jiren was said to be stronger than a God of Destruction, but not all GoDs are equal. Surpassing one of them doesn’t automatically mean surpassing Beerus. Given that Jiren was implied to not be that much different from Goku and Vegeta in terms of pure power when they fought (going by DBS Super Hero movie script), that may be overstating it a bit.

Broly similarly overwhelms Goku and Vegeta and is outright told to be probably stronger than Beerus, but, if anything, Beerus’ lack of reaction during Broly’s rampage suggests Toriyama still wasn’t ready for a veridict. Perhaps his GoD techniques still make him above them in a real fight.

[Koitsukai]

If we take at facethe whole Vermouth being physically stronger than Beerus, and base Jiren already being above Vermouth, then yeah. But by now, we know the GoDs have an ace up their sleeve, so probably Vermouth could still defeat Jiren, even if his battle power is lower.

If the story (manga and anime) ended in 2018, then my guess would be Goku and Jiren > Beerus and Vermouth. But since the manga shed more light on the GoD's real power, I'm inclined to think differently.

[Noah]

Beerus is probably the strongest GoD among the GoDs in other universes. The question, even though we’ve never seen (and might never see) his full power, is whether all the strongest members of the Dragon Team right now: MUI Goku, MUE Vegeta, Gohan Beast, LSSJ Broly, and Orange Piccolo teaming up could actually beat him?

[DBZ Macky]

Beerus is probably the strongest GoD among the GoDs in other universes. The question, even though we’ve never seen (and might never see) his full power, is whether all the strongest members of the Dragon Team right now: MUI Goku, MUE Vegeta, Gohan Beast, LSSJ Broly, and Orange Piccolo teaming up could actually beat him?

I feel like Toriyama never wanted him to get surpassed so Beerus vs all of them could be like Gomah vs the Daima fighters where he can take all of them on at the same time. Toei and Toyotaro and basically everyone who actually interacted with the series, though, seemed to want to leave him behind as soon as the Universe 6-7 arc.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's been a while since I, or anyone else here I guess, have posted here but now that we know for a fact that the 2015 DBS Anime is done and is being remade into a slightly different version, can we acknowledge and appreciate the fact that UI Goku, Jiren and Broly ARE stronger than Beerus and the other GoDs in that particular continuity?

Both the anime and the manga teased at UI > GoDs. The only reason the anime doesn't get to go back on it like the manga did was because the anime ended. The new anime is supposedly going to be a remaster (A la Kai) before they go into the manga stuff, so no way they'd diverge from Toriyama on such a major point.

I feel like Toriyama never wanted him to get surpassed so Beerus vs all of them could be like Gomah vs the Daima fighters where he can take all of them on at the same time. Toei and Toyotaro and basically everyone who actually interacted with the series, though, seemed to want to leave him behind as soon as the Universe 6-7 arc.

Where did you get that from? Only the anime suggested Goku could be catching up using Kaioken. The manga doesn't even hint at the idea of Goku catching up until the ToP.

[DBZ Macky]

Where did you get that from? Only the anime suggested Goku could be catching up using Kaioken. The manga doesn't even hint at the idea of Goku catching up until the ToP.

I did not mention Goku specifically. For the Manga it's just Shin saying that Vegito might be even stronger than Beerus. The statement gets repeated in that V-Jump interview thingy too. It does display the intent of those in charge at the time imo.

They probably got the memo by the time the Anime ended and so that's never brought up again and I don't think there's any statement of anyone being stronger than Beerus after that.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I did not mention Goku specifically. For the Manga it's just Shin saying that Vegito might be even stronger than Beerus. The statement gets repeated in that V-Jump interview thingy too. It does display the intent of those in charge at the time imo.

They probably got the memo by the time the Anime ended and so that's never brought up again and I don't think there's any statement of anyone being stronger than Beerus after that.

Tbf I wouldn't call that leaving Beerus behind since the story also makes it clear SSJB fusion is too strong to even count. Vegetto and Gogeta are pretty much cheat codes.

[DBZ Macky]

Tbf I wouldn't call that leaving Beerus behind since the story also makes it clear SSJB fusion is too strong to even count. Vegetto and Gogeta are pretty much cheat codes.

That's true but that also makes me question, how big do you think the gap between the Ultra forms and a Blue Fusion is? Which is stronger?
I initially thought they were basically interchangeable, given the statement about Jiren > Belmod > Beerus in the Anime, Vegito Blue > Beerus in the Manga and Gogeta Blue > Beerus in the Movie.

After looking into it a bit though, the only official media with any sort of even indirect comparison is Dragon Ball Heroes where SSB Gogeta does better than MUI Goku against SSR3 Black. I think there's another fight in the Manga where one of the fusions does better than MUI too but I can't recall anything at the moment.

So I think Blue Fusion is stronger than MUI and that there's a noticeable gap in power, but not by dozens of times, maybe like the gap between first form Zarbon (23,000) and Namek arc Vegeta (24,000)

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Tbf I wouldn't call that leaving Beerus behind since the story also makes it clear SSJB fusion is too strong to even count. Vegetto and Gogeta are pretty much cheat codes.

That's true but that also makes me question, how big do you think the gap between the Ultra forms and a Blue Fusion is? Which is stronger?
I initially thought they were basically interchangeable, given the statement about Jiren > Belmod > Beerus in the Anime, Vegito Blue > Beerus in the Manga and Gogeta Blue > Beerus in the Movie.

After looking into it a bit though, the only official media with any sort of even indirect comparison is Dragon Ball Heroes where SSB Gogeta does better than MUI Goku against SSR3 Black. I think there's another fight in the Manga where one of the fusions does better than MUI too but I can't recall anything at the moment.

So I think Blue Fusion is stronger than MUI and that there's a noticeable gap in power, but not by dozens of times, maybe like the gap between first form Zarbon (23,000) and Namek arc Vegeta (24,000)

I never watched Heroes, but I think one of the first episodes has Cumber beating SSJ4 Vegetto (or at least not losing before he defuses) and then losing to UI Goku? I don't remember, but it was something that seemed like UI > Fusion.

But going strictly with DBS (Where power scaling exists), I always felt Blue fusion was stronger. UI and Broly were considered GoD level, while Vegetto and Gogeta were explicitly placed above that. DBS 104 kinda confirms it for me since LSSJ Broly and UI Goku are rivals since they both rival Gohan Beast.

As for how big the gap is... That's one of my biggest headaches with Super. Multiplier logic would lead you to think SSJB fusion is at least tens of thousands of times stronger than an individual SSJB. UI never seemed that strong to me, we always see SSJB tiers putting up a fight against UI tiers. However when I imagine a fight, something like Vegeta vs Zarbon is what comes to mind (Gogeta vs Broly is very similar to it, Broly/Zarbon is getting his ass kicked but he's handling it, Vegeta/Gogeta isn't pulling any crazy feats).

TL;DR: Blue fusion >> ToP UI = Broly = Jiren