Honestly, I'm not sure what to make of Dragon Ball canon anymore. Up until recently, I strongly believed it was all streamlined into a singular timeline based on what I'd read on other Dragon Ball sites. But whenever I even try to bring up my viewpoints, I get swarmed by people strongly against anything official added that wasn't written by Toriyama. (GT, Heroes, Ultimate Tenkaiichi's storyline, Xenoverse, Online).
I know people love Toriyama's work and so do I, but I don't think the other content not written by him is inherently bad. GT might get a lot of flames, but aside from its few consistency flaws, it tries it's best to stay consistent. Toriyama on the other hand is a sucker for retconning his own work; he's done it in the past and is continuing to do so with DB Super and the movies its based off of, and no one ever flames him for doing so because he's the creator. I always considered GT to be part of the story because Toriyama not only called it a side story but it was included in the Battle of Gods guidebook in the Japanese premier- and Heroes' manga further tries to ground it into canon by including the Shadow Dragons, one of Goku Jr's friends and other GT content. I know people have wanted to see GT rewritten to make more sense; to have Toriyama be in charge of what happens in GT. But I don't see that ever happening, in fact I consider DB Super to be his take on GT without actually rewriting GT- it has new Saiyan forms, God-like characters and will explore the universe; all things we've seen in GT.
I also read that the events were intertwined supposedly with UT's Hero Mode, Xenoverse and Online (which were already intertwined; Xenoverse was sort of based off of Online). Online doesn't even conflict with GT's events very much either; there's only one problem I could find regarding Buu's life and it could easily explained imo (either he created Baby Buu before fusing with Uub and dying, or he was brought back with the Dragon Balls; though I kind of lean toward the former now).
Anyway my point being I just dunno what to think anymore- people just seem to think I haven't done enough research or what I have found isn't sufficient proof. From what I know, Toriyama's never opposed anything new that's been added over the years. And I'm not keen on the idea of alternate dimensions/mutiple universes and canons; I prefer having everything streamlined and organized, but now I just dunno what to do with all this info I've found. What do you all think? Do you split it up into multiple universes and canons depending on whether Toriyama wrote it or not?
General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
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OkamiTakahashi
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
Last edited by OkamiTakahashi on Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
Yup, works the best that way for me.OkamiTakahashi wrote:What do you all think? Do you split it up into multiple universes and canons depending on whether Toriyama wrote it or not?
So there's the manga canon, which is basically just Dragon Ball from beginning to end in tankoubon format.
Then there's the manga canon 2.0, which could be said to be Dragon Ball from beginning to end in Kanzenban format, but including Neko Majin.
And finally the manga canon 3.0, the updated tankoubon format of the manga plus Jaco, DB Minus, Yo Son Goku(as drawn by Oiishi), Battle of Gods and Resurrection [F].
I'd have personally preferred it, if Oiishi or Toyble could have made an adaptation of BoG for the manga format. I don't like putting things together cross media.
Moving on..
There's the anime canon, that includes the original 3 tv series, DBZ movie 1, due to the Garlic Jr. filler arc and the 3 tv specials.
There's the movie canon, which is just all of the movies, though it should be noted they don't necessarily share a continuity, they are still part of the same canon.
Then there's the anime canon 2.0, which is the DB tv series, then DB Kai/DBZ Kai and finally Dragon Ball Super.
Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
That are a couple of questions about how can we connect Super before EoZ:
- Is this series set 6 months or 4 years after the Boo Arc? (If it is 6 months, then Pan would be 10 instead of 4 years old, plot hole)
- Toriyama wants to keep Goku growing even stronger, we don't know that he will surpass Whis/Vados one day, but if he does what would be his interest in Oob in EoZ anyway? Seems ilogical that he surpassed Kid Boo a long time ago is excited about fighting his reincarnation
This makes me wonder if EoZ will be erased or DBS would just be a side story like DBGT
- Is this series set 6 months or 4 years after the Boo Arc? (If it is 6 months, then Pan would be 10 instead of 4 years old, plot hole)
- Toriyama wants to keep Goku growing even stronger, we don't know that he will surpass Whis/Vados one day, but if he does what would be his interest in Oob in EoZ anyway? Seems ilogical that he surpassed Kid Boo a long time ago is excited about fighting his reincarnation
This makes me wonder if EoZ will be erased or DBS would just be a side story like DBGT
乃亜
Dragon Ball: The Others Discussion Thread
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Dragon Ball: The Others Discussion Thread
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
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Hellspawn28
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
They said sometime has pass since the last wish was made. So Super is likely set 4 years after Buu just like in BOG.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
Freeza was born with a battle power of 84 million, and look how strong he got after doing training. Oob was born with an unnatural battle power as well, so he should have the potential to rival SSB Goku, and maybe even surpass him, if he was to train.Noah wrote:- Toriyama wants to keep Goku growing even stronger, we don't know that he will surpass Whis/Vados one day, but if he does what would be his interest in Oob in EoZ anyway? Seems ilogical that he surpassed Kid Boo a long time ago is excited about fighting his reincarnation
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Hellspawn28
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
Goku wants a student of his own anyways. He wants to train him and have Uub become stronger.
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Sandubadear
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
where's this from?DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Freeza was born with a battle power of 84 million
"The life is the hardest video games of ever. Because you have only one life and the powers are kinda lame. And sometimes a stage takes years"
"The life is a game, the objective of the game is trying to find the objective of the game, and then, finish the game"
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Lazy Xenoverse characters: Kuriza, Neko Majin Abra
"The life is a game, the objective of the game is trying to find the objective of the game, and then, finish the game"
--by Ranely Jr
時空の主/齊天大聖
Lazy Xenoverse characters: Kuriza, Neko Majin Abra
Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
His imagination.Sandubadear wrote:where's this from?DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Freeza was born with a battle power of 84 million
Freeza's birth battle power is never stated, but some fans keep assuming that because Freeza never trained until RoF, it means he was born with a battle power of *insert battle power*.
I don't see why his power couldn't just naturally increase as he matured.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
Freeza's base form, which is his 70% Final Form, had a battle power of 84 million back on Namek, since his 100% is at 120 million.Sandubadear wrote:where's this from?DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Freeza was born with a battle power of 84 million
Why would it increase? Gohan, Goten, and Trunks stopped training as children, and they didn't get stronger simply by becoming adults. Ki has never been shown to increase by growing up, on the contrary, so far we've seen that there is no visible effect to it.dbgtFO wrote:His imagination.Sandubadear wrote:where's this from?DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Freeza was born with a battle power of 84 million
Freeza's birth battle power is never stated, but some fans keep assuming that because Freeza never trained until RoF, it means he was born with a battle power of *insert battle power*.
I don't see why his power couldn't just naturally increase as he matured.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
Because it's simple logic. If he never trains, an adult will be much stronger than he was as a baby or as a kid simply by growing up (which seems to be Freeza's case). If he does train while young and then stops however, it's certainly possible for his growth to not make up for the lack of training, thus making that person actually stronger when he was younger then when he is an adult, but even that isn't very common. Anyway, that doesn't seem to be Freeza's case. Assuming that Freeza was born with the exact same power that he has as an adult doesn't make much sense.DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Why would it increase? Gohan, Goten, and Trunks stopped training as children, and they didn't get stronger simply by becoming adults. Ki has never been shown to increase by growing up, on the contrary, so far we've seen that there is no visible effect to it.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
It's not simple logic, it's an assumption you are making. Growing up should only affect his physical strength, there is no evidence that ki increases as well.rereboy wrote:Because it's simple logic. If he never trains, an adult will be much stronger than he was as a baby or as a kid simply by growing up (which seems to be Freeza's case). If he does train while young and then stops however, it's certainly possible for his growth to not make up for the lack of training, thus making that person actually stronger when he was younger then when he is an adult, but even that isn't very common. Anyway, that doesn't seem to be Freeza's case. Assuming that Freeza was born with the exact same power that he has as an adult doesn't make much sense.DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Why would it increase? Gohan, Goten, and Trunks stopped training as children, and they didn't get stronger simply by becoming adults. Ki has never been shown to increase by growing up, on the contrary, so far we've seen that there is no visible effect to it.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
Ki is the combination of spirit and body. There's no Ki without a body. If the body is stronger, so will the Ki be stronger.DBZGTKOSDH wrote: It's not simple logic, it's an assumption you are making. Growing up should only affect his physical strength, there is no evidence that ki increases as well.
And, no, there's no real assumption here, I'm just following the logic of growing up, which is a simple logic. So, if there's an assumption here, it's just the assumption that things regarding growing up aren't completely different to what is considered logical and natural. Meaning that people grown up and they become bigger and stronger, which is why adults are stronger than when they were infants even if they don't train.
The only real assumption here would be assuming that, for some reason, that's not it works in Dragon World, that adults are as strong as they were when they were infants unless they train. Now, that's an assumption, especially since there's nothing even pointing us in that direction at all.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
Eh? Ki is a spiritual energy. Goku doesn't fire a part of his body when he uses the Kamehameha.rereboy wrote:Ki is the combination of spirit and body. There's no Ki without a body. If the body is stronger, so will the Ki be stronger.
If that was the case, Gohan at the 25th TB should be stronger than he was at the Cell Games.And, no, there's no real assumption here, I'm just following the logic of growing up, which is a simple logic. So, if there's an assumption here, it's just the assumption that things regarding growing up aren't completely different to what is considered logical and natural. Meaning that people grown up and they become bigger and stronger, which is why adults are stronger than when they were infants even if they don't train.
Again, you are talking about physical strength. Even though physical strength & ki are connected, they are not the same thing.The only real assumption here would be assuming that, for some reason, that's not it works in Dragon World, that adults are as strong as they were when they were infants unless they train. Now, that's an assumption, especially since there's nothing even pointing us in that direction at all.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
Ki is methaphysical energy, giving birth by both the spirit and the body. The reason why dead people without their bodies are harmless is precisely because they don't really have Ki without their bodies. If all they needed was their spirit/soul, beings like Freeza, Cell and Buu would be just as dangerous and powerful just after dying as they were alive, and Goku and the others wouldn't need their bodies in the afterlife at all to train. Even outside of Dragon Ball's franchise, Ki is basically perceived as the concept of live force and energy flow through the body and doesn't make much sense without a body.DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Eh? Ki is a spiritual energy. Goku doesn't fire a part of his body when he uses the Kamehameha.
Like I explained and you obviously didn't read, it's certainly possible for the growth of a young person to not make up for the fact that the young person stopped training while he was young. Meaning that Gohan would have received a boost from growing up but not enough to compensate what he lost due to having stopped training. There's no such circumstances regarding Freeza since he never really trained, thus, he never lost anything, he just gained from growing up.If that was the case, Gohan at the 25th TB should be stronger than he was at the Cell Games.
Even if you wanted to ignore the role of the body in regards to Ki, the spirit and mindset of an adult can never compare to the spirit and mindset of an infant, and that development is achieved by growing up. And spirit and mindset are essential components of Ki and it's power.Again, you are talking about physical strength. Even though physical strength & ki are connected, they are not the same thing.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
I'm not saying that ki isn't related to the body, but ki is a spiritual energy, composed of other spiritual powers, according to Toriyama.rereboy wrote:Ki is methaphysical energy, giving birth by both the spirit and the body. The reason why dead people without their bodies are harmless is precisely because they don't really have Ki without their bodies. If all they needed was their spirit/soul, beings like Freeza, Cell and Buu would be just as dangerous and powerful just after dying as they were alive, and Goku and the others wouldn't need their bodies in the afterlife at all to train. Even outside of Dragon Ball's franchise, Ki is basically perceived as the concept of live force and energy flow through the body and doesn't make much sense without a body.
You didn't explain, you posted your hypothesis to back up your assumption. Do you have any evidence for any of this? Because we saw Gohan growing up & training through the years, and none of his gains were stated, or even hinted, to come from his growth.Like I explained and you obviously didn't read, it's certainly possible for the growth of a young person to not make up for the fact that the young person stopped training while he was young. Meaning that Gohan would have received a boost from growing up but not enough to compensate what he lost due to having stopped training. There's no such circumstances regarding Freeza since he never really trained, thus, he never lost anything, he just gained from growing up.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
Could someone please make a diagram or a list or a catalog of all the official canon adaptations for a) the complete manga (main series, prequel, sequel, spin-off etc.) and b) the complete anime series (DB, DBZ, DBGT, DBZ Kai, DB Super, movies/TV specials/ OVAs etc.)?
I mean what adaptations can I consider canon-official for the anime and what for the manga?
I mean what adaptations can I consider canon-official for the anime and what for the manga?
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
Did you check Kanzenshuu.com?Goku1085 wrote:Could someone please make a diagram or a list or a catalog of all the official canon adaptations for a) the complete manga (main series, prequel, sequel, spin-off etc.) and b) the complete anime series (DB, DBZ, DBGT, DBZ Kai, DB Super, movies/TV specials/ OVAs etc.)?
I mean what adaptations can I consider canon-official for the anime and what for the manga?
More specifically though:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/spin-offs/
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/movie/
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/databook/
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Sandubadear
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
You should decide for yourself.Goku1085 wrote:Could someone please make a diagram or a list or a catalog of all the official canon adaptations for a) the complete manga (main series, prequel, sequel, spin-off etc.) and b) the complete anime series (DB, DBZ, DBGT, DBZ Kai, DB Super, movies/TV specials/ OVAs etc.)?
I mean what adaptations can I consider canon-official for the anime and what for the manga?
Manga guide
Manga spin-off guide
Anime episode guide
Movie guide
"The life is the hardest video games of ever. Because you have only one life and the powers are kinda lame. And sometimes a stage takes years"
"The life is a game, the objective of the game is trying to find the objective of the game, and then, finish the game"
--by Ranely Jr
時空の主/齊天大聖
Lazy Xenoverse characters: Kuriza, Neko Majin Abra
"The life is a game, the objective of the game is trying to find the objective of the game, and then, finish the game"
--by Ranely Jr
時空の主/齊天大聖
Lazy Xenoverse characters: Kuriza, Neko Majin Abra
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Akumaito Beam
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
Canon is important to me on a personal level because this series is a clusterfuck. There's so much garbage and contradictory information to shift through. I love Toriyama's writing so my canon revolves around that. It's a concise universe I can analize for my own enjoyment. I don't have to worry about why Cooler, Brolly, Wheelo and Super Saiyan Future Bardock make zero sense because they're completely irrelevant to me.Herms wrote:I think for me the key thing is that there's not much point in defining a canon unless you're going to actually do something with it. Write fanfiction, or create a fan RPG, or make a big timeline for the series, or a power level chart, or some such thing. And obviously, depending on what you're doing, the things that it will make sense to include in the canon will vary. There's obviously nothing inherently wrong in writing fanfiction that incorporates something from filler, or creating a timeline for the movies, or whatnot. And video games continue to incorporate everything from everything, because why not? So for me the problem with most of these canon debates is that in large part it's people trying to define a canon solely for the sake of having a canon. Apparently just so they can go "yep, that's canon" or shake their heads and say "nope, totally not canon".
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Black_Anime_Fan
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Re: General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion
Everything 
DBZ ended after the Frieza Saga.Goku wrote:You haven't figured it out yet? I'm the Saiyan who came all the way from Earth for the sole purpose of beating you. I am the warrior you've heard of in legends, pure of heart and awakened by fury. That's what I am. I AM THE SUPER SAIYAN, SON GOKU!