Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc?
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Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc?
Goku completely fails in stopping Vegeta. In fact Goku loses the fight to Vegeta. He is completely immobilized when he transforms into an ape and then thrown to the ground where he lays and does nothing until Vegeta is defeated besides giving advice. While you can arguably say Goku might have beaten Vegeta had he not decided to transform into an ape, we still don't know that for sure.
It was the combined efforts of Gohan (fighting Vegeta and transforming into an ape), Krillin (throwing the spirt bomb at Vegeta, with Gohan bouncing it back), and Yajirobe (cutting off Vegeta's tail and slashing through his armor), that stopped him.
Goku was only the end-game victor of two sagas, the Freeza saga and the Buu saga, where he's the one who stops both villains. The Saiyan saga and Cell saga are won by Gohan and other characters.
So why do people tend to forget Goku wasn't the victor or hero of the Saiyan arc? Its like people overlook the fact that this saga is already where Toriyama was trying to pass the torch from Goku to Gohan.
It was the combined efforts of Gohan (fighting Vegeta and transforming into an ape), Krillin (throwing the spirt bomb at Vegeta, with Gohan bouncing it back), and Yajirobe (cutting off Vegeta's tail and slashing through his armor), that stopped him.
Goku was only the end-game victor of two sagas, the Freeza saga and the Buu saga, where he's the one who stops both villains. The Saiyan saga and Cell saga are won by Gohan and other characters.
So why do people tend to forget Goku wasn't the victor or hero of the Saiyan arc? Its like people overlook the fact that this saga is already where Toriyama was trying to pass the torch from Goku to Gohan.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
I think at least a small part of it seems to be that Vegeta himself almost seems to forget that he technically won their first (and really their second fight later on during the Boo arc) fight. For a small portion of the Namek arc, he talks about wanting to get revenge on 'Kakarot and those earthlings', but his focus seems to switch very quickly to solely 'Kakarot' for whatever reason.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
And Goku's Genki Dama, give credit where it's due. Let's not forget that it was Goku that told Gohan to bounce it backIt was the combined efforts of Gohan (fighting Vegeta and transforming into an ape), Krillin (throwing the spirt bomb at Vegeta, with Gohan bouncing it back), and Yajirobe (cutting off Vegeta's tail and slashing through his armor), that stopped him.
I think Goku, more than the others, screwed with his worldview which is basically a caste system. Goku was a lower class, he shouldn't have gotten as far as he did.
Last edited by ABED on Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
He's focused on Goku since he reached Super Saiyan(And beyond) first, which should be his privilege as the Elite he thinks he is.Gyt Kaliba wrote:I think at least a small part of it seems to be that Vegeta himself almost seems to forget that he technically won their first (and really their second fight later on during the Boo arc) fight. For a small portion of the Namek arc, he talks about wanting to get revenge on 'Kakarot and those earthlings', but his focus seems to switch very quickly to solely 'Kakarot' for whatever reason.
Regarding the topic, is it a popular opinion? I always thought it was the best example of teamwork the series so desperately tries to avoid. Vegeta lost to the Earthlings not to Goku.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
Because he didn't lose.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
Goku did lose. Had Gohan and Krillin not decided to return to the battlefield (remember they were flying back to Roshi's Island), there's no way Goku would have won. Even if Yajirobe had cut off Vegeta's tail, Vegeta was still battle-ready.
Gohan fought Vegeta a ton and it was Krillin/Gohan hitting him with the Spirit Bomb that caused Vegeta to almost lose, and then Gohan falling on him as an ape did him in.
Gohan fought Vegeta a ton and it was Krillin/Gohan hitting him with the Spirit Bomb that caused Vegeta to almost lose, and then Gohan falling on him as an ape did him in.
Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
I guess because Goku was the one that made the spirit bomb?
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
Goku also needed Tien's help to defeat King Piccolo. And the help of Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo to defeat Freeza. And the help of Vegeta, Mr. Buu, and Mr. Satan to defeat Kid Buu.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
Goku still manages to play a large role in saving the world there, as without his wearing Vegeta down with the Kaioken and later the Genki Dama, no one would have had a chance in hell of winning.
But yes, he does lose to Vegeta, and Vegeta loses only to the tenacity and teamwork of all four of the remaining Earth fighters at that point.
Also, the everybody vs. Vegeta portion of the fight is one of the best parts of the series. So good.
But yes, he does lose to Vegeta, and Vegeta loses only to the tenacity and teamwork of all four of the remaining Earth fighters at that point.
Also, the everybody vs. Vegeta portion of the fight is one of the best parts of the series. So good.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
Don't forget he also defeated the Red Ribbon Army and both Piccolos. He also beat more independent opponents (Oolong, Yamcha, Rabbits, Pilaf Machines, etc) than anyone, and was probably the most successful tournament competitor in the series after Mr. Satan. Never mind enemies unique to the anime (especially GT) and the movies... I'm probably nitpicking the obvious, but I didn't see "Z" specified anywhere, and I've seen a lot of people do this lately. So it bugs me.precita wrote:Goku was only the end-game victor of two sagas, the Freeza saga and the Buu saga, where he's the one who stops both villains. The Saiyan saga and Cell saga are won by Gohan and other characters.
Anyway, I imagine people are just simplifying things rather than ignoring or forgetting the others. Or maybe they're viewing it like a wrestling match: it started out as a one-on-one fight between Gokuu and Vegeta, but Gokuu's allies interfered and Vegeta lost because it was no DQ. In comparison, Raditz was more of a handicap match from the start, and Nappa was sort of a gauntlet match.
Plus, when people think of the Vegeta battle in the Saiyan arc, the stances on the cliffs and Kamehameha vs Galick Gun are some of the most iconic moments in the entire series. Oozaru Gohan or Kuririn tossing the Genkidama, not so much.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
Goku WAS the victor, more specifically he was one of the victors. But he was on that team so the victory is his, and Vegeta was the ultimate loser.
Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
Tien did nothing against King Piccolo. Or rather, after using the evil containment wave he did nothing else and lost to Drum. Goku beat King Piccolo all by himself.Polyphase Avatron wrote:Goku also needed Tenshinhan's help to defeat King Piccolo.
This I see differently, because Freeza wasn't "worn down" by the fights with the previous characters he just had to transform. Had Goku arrived at Freeza's first form there would have been no difference because he would have had to transform the same way.And the help of Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo to defeat Freeza. And the help of Vegeta, Mr. Buu, and Mr. Satan to defeat Kid Buu.
With the Vegeta fight it was clearly a team effort to bring him down. Vegeta never recovered.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
Wrong! Without Ten, Goku would have been killed as he saves form Piccolo in the fight.precita wrote:Tenshinhan did nothing against King Piccolo. Or rather, after using the evil containment wave he did nothing else and lost to Drum.Gokubeat King Piccolo all by himself.Polyphase Avatron wrote:Goku also needed Tenshinhan's help to defeat King Piccolo.
This I see differently, because Freeza wasn't "worn down" by the fights with the previous characters he just had to transform. Had Goku arrived at Freeza's first form there would have been no difference because he would have had to transform the same way.And the help of Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo to defeat Freeza. And the help of Vegeta, Mr. Buu, and Mr. Satan to defeat Kid Buu.
With the Vegeta fight it was clearly a team effort to bring him down. Vegeta never recovered.
Last edited by Soppa Saia People on Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
After their beam struggle Goku couldn't take a simple slap from Yajerobe so Vegeta would've won easily.precita wrote:While you can arguably say Goku might have beaten Vegeta had he not decided to transform into an ape, we still don't know that for sure.
In terms of the overall battle,Vegeta won the battle against Goku but lost the war against earth.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
I think that it was the simple fact that Goku was more powerful than Vegeta and made Vegeta to resort to using his Great Ape form. Vegeta couldn't use it again, so technically, he didn't have that trick up his sleeve anymore. Gohan and the others weren't more powerful than Vegeta, they essentially just got lucky. Vegeta's true beef is with Goku because he was the only one that could surpass him.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
Except for all of the other people he already knew were stronger than him...TheGreatness25 wrote:I think that it was the simple fact that Goku was more powerful than Vegeta and made Vegeta to resort to using his Great Ape form. Vegeta couldn't use it again, so technically, he didn't have that trick up his sleeve anymore. Gohan and the others weren't more powerful than Vegeta, they essentially just got lucky. Vegeta's true beef is with Goku because he was the only one that could surpass him.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
Goku got the best of Vegeta before he opted to transform into an Oozaru. Goku, a low class saiyan, overpowered him, and that's what Vegeta considers a loss.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
This.fadeddreams5 wrote:Goku got the best of Vegeta before he opted to transform into an Oozaru. Goku, a low class saiyan, overpowered him, and that's what Vegeta considers a loss.
But Vegeta still won...
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
Vegeta made Goku use the Kaioken so doesn't that mean he's more powerful ?TheGreatness25 wrote: Goku was more powerful than Vegeta and made Vegeta to resort to using his Great Ape form.
Gohan and the others essentially just got lucky.
Yeah cause if he got out of Gohan's way after cutting off his tail they would've been finished.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc
Vegeta? Won? How?DBZAOTA482 wrote:This.fadeddreams5 wrote:Goku got the best of Vegeta before he opted to transform into an Oozaru. Goku, a low class saiyan, overpowered him, and that's what Vegeta considers a loss.
But Vegeta still won...
Not only did he retreat and got humiliated but he didn't kill a single person he fought against.