DB and DBZ - How different are they?

[Quebaz]

As VegettoEX says (albeit regarding a completely different topic), It's just "The Show" to me, with Z being a divisory so that when I present the show to my friends, I have an excuse to not ouright say it has 444 episodes (plus the movies, plus GT, plus the specials).

I mean, to most of the world, both DB and Z were showed back to back, one after another and to many, the name change was just that, a name change, you were still watching a continuation of what you were a day/week ago. I feel the same way regarding Sailor Moon, while yes it's categorized in sub-series (albeit more in tone with the arcs compared to Dragon Ball), it's still one major show, Sailor Moon, composed of 200 episodes (plus the Movies).

[KonohaKillas]

There's a sense of dread and hopelessness from the moment Radditz lands on Earth. Watching all the human fighters get completely destroyed by Nappa like they were nothing when they were all shown as competent fighters in Dragonball really puts in perspective how humans never had a chance of competing with aliens.

Martial artists are murdered one-by-one, including Kuririn. Goku is outright defeated. The turtle sage is killed. Chiaotzu is killed. Piccolo not only makes his wish, but kills the dragon. World leadership is overthrown. Tenshinhan is on death's door.

Been there, done that .

This is a true testament for the people that say otherwise to hear. Early Dragon Ball also has dark tones and matters, not just the 'z' era. Due to how this reminds me of everything, this really makes me want to re-watch the show from the beginning.

[fadeddreams5]

Dragon Ball breaks away from this. The Piccolo Daimao arc isn't an adventure-oriented arc. If you choose to classify it as such, I can easily say DBZ follows the same formula as well with Freeza (adventure) -> Cell Games (tournament) -> Boo (adventure) -> Oob (tournament). Obviously, that doesn't make much sense, does it? The only time the series follows that formula is from the beginning arc to the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. Not all of Dragon Ball.

It follows that throughout all of Dragon Ball. The Piccolo Jr saga is a tournament. I already mentioned the King Piccolo saga. It's the one exception, and the one thing everyone turns to to argue that Dragon Ball has no distinctions even though they're clear as day.

The Cell Games and Oob segment aren't traditional tournaments in the fashion of Dragon Ball. These were iconic arcs ONLY present in the first half. They were set in the same arena, and they all had a beginning and end. The adventures in Dragon Ball Z revolved around defeating a bad guy that threatened humanity. The adventures in dragon ball were not, besides the one obvious exception which again starred Kid Goku.

But that's wrong again. Goku was an adult in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. That's Dragon Ball. Don't ignore it just because it doesn't suit the DB/DBZ division.

You're being selective. 90%+ of Dragon Ball involved Kid Goku. The last fraction had a teen Goku, not an adult, in one of those iconic tournament arcs I mentioned before. DBZ features the adventures of an older Goku and his sons.

And once again you keep ignoring the Daimao and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai parts of the series. "Fast-paced" and "absolutely crazy" action are present in the main fights of these two arcs. I'd reckon they're the most brutal, bloodiest and easily the hardest victories for Goku yet. So what makes these fights any different from Z's?

I'm not saying DB didn't have this at one point in the story, but the scale of the battles in DBZ was larger. The action was faster paced, characters could destroy planets a lot easier, they could now fly at the speed of light, the beams were huge, ki blasts were more prevalent, and flurries of punches and kicks became a norm. The emphasis was in these sort of over-the-top fights. I don't see how anyone can compare DB battles to DBZ ones. I'm not even saying the former didn't have good fights. Of course it did. Some were much better than some of the ones in DBZ.

Besides the first arc of the series, Dragon Ball has almost as much sci-fi has Z has. Look at the Red Ribbon Army.

I'm not saying DB didn't have sci-fi elements, just that DBZ focused on that theme a bit more heavily. Didn't Toriyama or someone in some interview actually touch on the sci-fi in DBZ? Or maybe I read that in the dbwikipedia site. idk.

Super Saiyans only started existing in the Freeza arc. And Saiyans by themselves aren't a convincing enough reason, because Dragon Ball had demons and aliens (Namekians), which became iconic parts of the series as well.

But the term "saiyan" was coined in the start of DBZ. The first thing a lot of people think about when they even hear "Dragon Ball" is that transformation into a SSJ.

[ABED]

The Piccolo Jr saga is a tournament

A tournament with world wide stakes.

The last fraction had a teen Goku, not an adult

18 is technically an adult. Other than having a family, Goku's no different in the Piccolo Jr. arc than he is in the Saiyan arc.

just that DBZ focused on that theme a bit more heavily

They aren't focused on them. Sure, they fight on other planets, but Freeza isn't a scifi villain. The plots aren't science fiction oriented. Arguably the Cell arc is, but that has roots back in the Red Ribbon Army arc.

The first thing a lot of people think about when they even hear "Dragon Ball" is that transformation into a SSJ.

But that doesn't make it that much different than DB. No one has argued that DBZ isn't more popular.

[dario03]

I don't really think the split was needed but I always figured the split was done when it was because that's when Goku has his first kid, and we find out that he is a alien, plus he dies, travels in the afterlife, and shortly after goes out into space. I think those are pretty big events, so while they could of done it at other times that seems like a good place to do it. Plus it lets them end DB with a high point of Goku defeating Piccolo (who basically becomes a good guy at the start of Z) and going off to get married. I think doing it before the 23rd tournament could of also worked though that would of mostly just been because of Goku's growth spurt. Or possibly doing it right after Raditz might of worked too but then we're only talking a couple of episodes.

The last fraction had a teen Goku, not an adult

18 is technically an adult. Other than having a family, Goku's no different in the Piccolo Jr. arc than he is in the Saiyan arc.

In Japan isn't it 20 years old to be considered an adult? At least legally speaking. I know that's when you can legally do things like drink, smoke, vote (though they are lowering voting to 18).

[B]

Dragon Ball breaks away from this. The Piccolo Daimao arc isn't an adventure-oriented arc.

Eh... Depends on how strict you are with that term. No, the goal is not "find this thing," but there's a lot of moving around to different locales in that arc. If you want to include the anime, you have the ice cave filler when Goku has to find the Super God Water, Tambourine running around killing Budokai contestants, and the Kame House gang collecting the DBs(I guess there was a "find this thing" element in there). We're also introduced to the capitol of the world for a little bit. The Freeza arc does a tiny bit of this, but it's limited in scope thanks to Namek's streamlined blandness(though there is all that filler before they actually arrive on the real Planet Namek).

[KonohaKillas]

Dragon Ball breaks away from this. The Piccolo Daimao arc isn't an adventure-oriented arc.

Eh... Depends on how strict you are with that term. No, the goal is not "find this thing," but there's a lot of moving around to different locales in that arc. If you want to include the anime, you have the ice cave filler when Goku has to find the Super God Water, Tambourine running around killing Budokai contestants, and the Kame House gang collecting the DBs(I guess there was a "find this thing" element in there). We're also introduced to the capitol of the world for a little bit. The Freeza arc does a tiny bit of this, but it's limited in scope thanks to Namek's streamlined blandness(though there is all that filler before they actually arrive on the real Planet Namek).

I just wanted to note that it's funny how that filler was actually quite interesting, filler seems to get a bad rap, but that fake namekian arrival was quite the journey. That whole situation including events leading up was very space front adventure-esque.

[irreality]

Reading this thread, I've decided, yes, there is a difference between DBZ and DB: In DB, Goku is single and mostly a lone agent. in DBZ, Goku is married and has a family.

The whole genre/thematic/tonal/protagonist change is not that evident to me -- all those are gradual or saga specific. A change in goal orientation for Goku is a drastic division between the two. In DB, Goku doesn't really have a home -- he leaves home in the first episode, and doesn't go back there again, he is a ronin sort of character. In DBZ, he does have a home, and people who depend on him -- although he leaves home for battles or to train (or to be dead), he doesn't really "walk the earth" after that.

[EXBadguy]

Simple, most of DB is a balance of comedy and action, while the last two sagas of DB and most of Z(Saiyan-Cell) tends to be more serious than funny. So easy that even a non-fan can notice the difference.

[Doctor.]

It follows that throughout all of Dragon Ball. The Piccolo Jr saga is a tournament. I already mentioned the King Piccolo saga. It's the one exception, and the one thing everyone turns to to argue that Dragon Ball has no distinctions even though they're clear as day.

The Cell Games and Oob segment aren't traditional tournaments in the fashion of Dragon Ball. These were iconic arcs ONLY present in the first half. They were set in the same arena, and they all had a beginning and end. The adventures in Dragon Ball Z revolved around defeating a bad guy that threatened humanity. The adventures in dragon ball were not, besides the one obvious exception which again starred Kid Goku.

You can't say it's an exception because that's already breaking the formula. Likewise, I can say that the Saiyan arc is an exception and that Z follows the same adventure (Freeza) -> tournament (Cell Games) -> adventure (Boo) -> tournament (Oob) formula. Again, that doesn't make much sense does it? Why does it matter if they aren't "traditional" tournaments? They're still tournaments regardless.

There isn't one obvious exception. There are two. Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr, who also "threatened humanity", as you put it. It had adult Goku.

You're being selective. 90%+ of Dragon Ball involved Kid Goku. The last fraction had a teen Goku, not an adult, in one of those iconic tournament arcs I mentioned before. DBZ features the adventures of an older Goku and his sons.

Of course I'm being selective, since you're being selective as well. You choose to ignore what makes the DB/Z split not work, and that's just not right. It doesn't matter if it's 90% or 10%, it's still there, it exists, it deserves to be recognized.

I'm not saying DB didn't have this at one point in the story, but the scale of the battles in DBZ was larger. The action was faster paced, characters could destroy planets a lot easier, they could now fly at the speed of light, the beams were huge, ki blasts were more prevalent, and flurries of punches and kicks became a norm. The emphasis was in these sort of over-the-top fights. I don't see how anyone can compare DB battles to DBZ ones. I'm not even saying the former didn't have good fights. Of course it did. Some were much better than some of the ones in DBZ.

Yes, and the scale of the battles grew progressively larger. In the Piccolo Jr arc, they threatened humanity, against Raditz? The same thing. Against Vegeta? There we move up to threatening the entire planet. There's progression. You can't just choose to arbitrarily split the series and say "oh well, the scale of the battles here are larger, duh!". I could do the same thing: I have the DB/Z split in the Boo arc. Then I could say the scale of the battles was larger because it didn't threaten the planet or the solar system, but the entire universe. It doesn't work like that. They're not different series just because the scale of the battles is larger. It started from one point, and grew as the series went on. The scale of the battles in the Saiyan arc is the same as the Daimao or Piccolo Jr arcs.

How was the action faster paced? The Piccolo Jr fight disagrees with this notion. They could destroy planets and fly at the speed of light yes, but at the beginning of Z? No, of course not, they could somewhere in the Namek arc.

The problem here is that you're picking the first part of Dragon Ball, the first two or three arcs, and comparing it to the Freeza and beyond arcs. It doesn't work like that. You're completely ignoring the progression in terms of power in the Daimao and Piccolo Jr arcs that led up to that point. With this in mind, splitting the series because of the level of power of the characters, is nonsensical. Following your logic, it'd make much more sense to split the series at the start of the Freeza arc, because that's where everything you listed off REALLY starts to become more important.

But the term "saiyan" was coined in the start of DBZ. The first thing a lot of people think about when they even hear "Dragon Ball" is that transformation into a SSJ.

Where did that Super Saiyan transformation happen? In the Freeza arc. Following my point above, due to EVERYTHING you just said, it makes more sense to have the DB/Z split at the start of the Freeza arc, not in the Saiyan arc.

[Hero]

I think the DB/ DBZ split makes some sense though it's not necessary. People reading the manga for example just read Dragon Ball all the way through.

As for what makes DB and DBZ different:

DB is about a boy (then man) fighting. DBZ is about an alien fighting. For me the split makes sense because it's the separation where Goku goes from possibly human to definitely alien.

[LuckyCat]

DB is about a boy (then man) fighting. DBZ is about an alien fighting. For me the split makes sense because it's the separation where Goku goes from possibly human to definitely alien.

But is that difference even noticeable? Goku behaves the same (enjoys fighting, eats a lot of food, is really irresponsible) whether he's an alien or not. The only times his alien heritage is even related to the story is Saiyan/Freeza saga. You might argue BoG reignites that flame, but that's Super and a whole other discussion.

[Hero]

DB is about a boy (then man) fighting. DBZ is about an alien fighting. For me the split makes sense because it's the separation where Goku goes from possibly human to definitely alien.

But is that difference even noticeable? Goku behaves the same (enjoys fighting, eats a lot of food, is really irresponsible) whether he's an alien or not. The only times his alien heritage is even related to the story is Saiyan/Freeza saga. You might argue BoG reignites that flame, but that's Super and a whole other discussion.

I disagree fully. The face that Goku has SSJ forms at all during the Android and Buu arcs is proof that his alien heritage/ retcon reveal is relevant to the plot.

[LuckyCat]

I disagree fully. The face that Goku has SSJ forms at all during the Android and Buu arcs is proof that his alien heritage/ retcon reveal is relevant to the plot.

He always had Oozaru in Dragon Ball, so it's not like transformations or power ups were new to DBZ.

[fadeddreams5]

You can't say it's an exception because that's already breaking the formula. Likewise, I can say that the Saiyan arc is an exception and that Z follows the same adventure (Freeza) -> tournament (Cell Games) -> adventure (Boo) -> tournament (Oob) formula. Again, that doesn't make much sense does it? Why does it matter if they aren't "traditional" tournaments? They're still tournaments regardless.

There isn't one obvious exception. There are two. Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr, who also "threatened humanity", as you put it. It had adult Goku.

But it is an exception. It's the only saga like it in Dragon Ball. And it still stars Kid Goku anyways. The Piccolo Jr arc is an extension of the Piccolo Daimao one, and it follows the traditional tournament format, regardless of the worldwide stakes. We still see Goku vs Tien. Tien vs Tao. Krillin vs Piccolo. In other words, match-ups leading to a final match and a champion.

Like I mentioned before, the Cell Games and Oob tournament are not structured like the ones in Dragon Ball, nor are they set in the same place. I see them, and the tournament in the Babidi arc, as homages. The "adventures" in DBZ are also dissimilar from the ones in DB, besides the Piccolo Daimao one, and involve finding ways to kill the major villain. Most of the time, this entails achieving new "saiyan" levels or manipulating the biological nature of the saiyan, which again, is not something present in DB.

Of course I'm being selective, since you're being selective as well. You choose to ignore what makes the DB/Z split not work, and that's just not right. It doesn't matter if it's 90% or 10%, it's still there, it exists, it deserves to be recognized.

The difference is I'm focusing on the majority of the series. Yes, the Piccolo saga happened. The Daimao arc still starred Kid Goku. The Jr arc could be seen as a prelude to DBZ: he's shown a grown up into a teen; the tournament arena, which had been an iconic setting, is completely obliterated; the aftermath has Goku getting married; and he FINALLY becomes the world martial arts champion. The perfect ending to the first half/DB, and a great transition to the 2nd half/DBZ.

Yes, and the scale of the battles grew progressively larger. In the Piccolo Jr arc, they threatened humanity, against Raditz? The same thing. Against Vegeta? There we move up to threatening the entire planet. There's progression. You can't just choose to arbitrarily split the series and say "oh well, the scale of the battles here are larger, duh!". I could do the same thing: I have the DB/Z split in the Boo arc. Then I could say the scale of the battles was larger because it didn't threaten the planet or the solar system, but the entire universe. It doesn't work like that. They're not different series just because the scale of the battles is larger. It started from one point, and grew as the series went on. The scale of the battles in the Saiyan arc is the same as the Daimao or Piccolo Jr arcs.

How was the action faster paced? The Piccolo Jr fight disagrees with this notion. They could destroy planets and fly at the speed of light yes, but at the beginning of Z? No, of course not, they could somewhere in the Namek arc.

The problem here is that you're picking the first part of Dragon Ball, the first two or three arcs, and comparing it to the Freeza and beyond arcs. It doesn't work like that. You're completely ignoring the progression in terms of power in the Daimao and Piccolo Jr arcs that led up to that point. With this in mind, splitting the series because of the level of power of the characters, is nonsensical. Following your logic, it'd make much more sense to split the series at the start of the Freeza arc, because that's where everything you listed off REALLY starts to become more important.

You're focusing on the very last arc with the end-boss. The scale gradually increased in Dragon Ball, but it escalated at the start of DBZ to a universal level. By that I mean, no natural foes on Earth posed a threat to Goku... at all. He was far above everyone on the planet--Dragon Ball was partly his progression to reach this level--so the series looked into space now.

If you can't see how the fights in DBZ are different, I don't know what to say. You're picking the final fight to compare. But how about all the others? It's day and night. And that's not to say DB fights are bad at all; I find a lot better than several DBZ ones. But the distinction is there. When I think DBZ, action comes to mind. When I think DB, adventure does, despite the tournament arcs and Piccolo saga. And honestly, there seems to be a common consensus like that. I'm sure a lot of casuals would be surprised to find out DB and DBZ were never split in the original manga.

Where did that Super Saiyan transformation happen? In the Freeza arc. Following my point above, due to EVERYTHING you just said, it makes more sense to have the DB/Z split at the start of the Freeza arc, not in the Saiyan arc

Did you ignore the rest of what I wrote? =/

I said the term "saiyan" was coined in DBZ. Zenkai, thirst for battle, transformations, etc. were all attributed to being apart of that species. It became a major part of the 2nd half, beginning at the very start of it. Not to mention, Goku is a family man, many years have passed, there's some focus on Gohan, etc.

The purpose of this topic is to point out the differences between the two series. Objectively speaking, they're one in the same, as Toriyama never made the split; Toei did. I can't argue against that. But how can anyone not see the distinctions made after the Jr arc? I'm not saying DBZ is a vastly different series in every way, shape, and form, but the differences are pretty blatant. Coincidence or not, Toei made a great decision splitting it where it did. It's really no different from Naruto and Shippuden. You can argue those series are one and the same too, but the differences are there. People will instantly point out the time skip, the shift in focus of the story, the higher "power levels", and so on.

By the way, don't you also consider Super no different from Dragon Ball (Z)? O_o

[T Pac]

The only believable argument that I think truly supports the notion that DB and DBZ are different is that DB is the story of Goku while DBZ is the story of Gohan. Even if you just watch Head Cha La and We Gotta Power, Gohan is the most prominent character featured. And I actually do think it was going in that direction until the second half of the Boo saga (the most disappointing part of the series, imo).

Other than that, I think most of the support for splitting the series where it was comes from the fact that that's actually what happened, rather than taking an alien look unbiased by what happened in reality.

[MCDaveG]

Uh-huh, they are the same series called DRAGON BALL
Fun in thread ensued!

[Soppa Saia People]

Dragon Ball breaks away from this. The Piccolo Daimao arc isn't an adventure-oriented arc. If you choose to classify it as such, I can easily say DBZ follows the same formula as well with Freeza (adventure) -> Cell Games (tournament) -> Boo (adventure) -> Oob (tournament). Obviously, that doesn't make much sense, does it? The only time the series follows that formula is from the beginning arc to the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. Not all of Dragon Ball.

It follows that throughout all of Dragon Ball. The Piccolo Jr saga is a tournament. I already mentioned the King Piccolo saga. It's the one exception, and the one thing everyone turns to to argue that Dragon Ball has no distinctions even though they're clear as day.

The Cell Games and Oob segment aren't traditional tournaments in the fashion of Dragon Ball. These were iconic arcs ONLY present in the first half. They were set in the same arena, and they all had a beginning and end. The adventures in Dragon Ball Z revolved around defeating a bad guy that threatened humanity. The adventures in dragon ball were not, besides the one obvious exception which again starred Kid Goku.

But that's wrong again. Goku was an adult in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. That's Dragon Ball. Don't ignore it just because it doesn't suit the DB/DBZ division.

You're being selective. 90%+ of Dragon Ball involved Kid Goku. The last fraction had a teen Goku, not an adult, in one of those iconic tournament arcs I mentioned before. DBZ features the adventures of an older Goku and his sons.

And once again you keep ignoring the Daimao and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai parts of the series. "Fast-paced" and "absolutely crazy" action are present in the main fights of these two arcs. I'd reckon they're the most brutal, bloodiest and easily the hardest victories for Goku yet. So what makes these fights any different from Z's?

I'm not saying DB didn't have this at one point in the story, but the scale of the battles in DBZ was larger. The action was faster paced, characters could destroy planets a lot easier, they could now fly at the speed of light, the beams were huge, ki blasts were more prevalent, and flurries of punches and kicks became a norm. The emphasis was in these sort of over-the-top fights. I don't see how anyone can compare DB battles to DBZ ones. I'm not even saying the former didn't have good fights. Of course it did. Some were much better than some of the ones in DBZ.

Besides the first arc of the series, Dragon Ball has almost as much sci-fi has Z has. Look at the Red Ribbon Army.

I'm not saying DB didn't have sci-fi elements, just that DBZ focused on that theme a bit more heavily. Didn't Toriyama or someone in some interview actually touch on the sci-fi in DBZ? Or maybe I read that in the dbwikipedia site. idk.

Super Saiyans only started existing in the Freeza arc. And Saiyans by themselves aren't a convincing enough reason, because Dragon Ball had demons and aliens (Namekians), which became iconic parts of the series as well.

But the term "saiyan" was coined in the start of DBZ. The first thing a lot of people think about when they even hear "Dragon Ball" is that transformation into a SSJ.

Toriyama never wrote "DBZ", he wrote Dragon Ball.

[ABED]

You're focusing on the very last arc with the end-boss. The scale gradually increased in Dragon Ball, but it escalated at the start of DBZ to a universal level. By that I mean, no natural foes on Earth posed a threat to Goku... at all. He was far above everyone on the planet--Dragon Ball was partly his progression to reach this level--so the series looked into space now.

And the most space stuff we really get is spaceships to get places. The types of enemy are the same, they are beings with extraordinary ki. I think many overstate how science fiction-y DBZ actually gets.

At the end of DB, he just barely defeated Piccolo

ki blasts were more prevalent, and flurries of punches and kicks became a norm. The emphasis was in these sort of over-the-top fights.

They were prevalent at the end of DB as well. Those flurry of punches are all over the place in DB.

DBZ focused on that theme a bit more heavily.

How was it a focus?

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

For me they are the same story with a natural evolution but still the same story, this supposed "diference" between DB and DBZ is just a BS and arbitrary division made up by TOEI that unfortunately part of the fandon takes for grant without thinking.