DB and DBZ - How different are they?

[fadeddreams5]

Toriyama never wrote "DBZ", he wrote Dragon Ball.

I never said he didn't. I was referring to the 2nd half of the story (i.e. the part known by most fans as DBZ). I recall reading somewhere about the added sci-fi. Not sure whether it was an interview or a wiki page.

And the most space stuff we really get is spaceships to get places. The types of enemy are the same, they are beings with extraordinary ki.

How was it a focus?

Spaceships, space itself, other planets (just Namek in the manga), aliens visiting Earth, alien technology (i.e. scouters, blasters, and saiyan armor), the protagonist and antagonists of Dragon Ball being revealed to have origins in other planets, a saga that emphasizes on (biological) androids created by collecting battle data and "cells" from everyone, time machines, etc. It wasn't a "focus," but it was much more prominent in comparison. Even more so when you look at the majority of the movies.

They were prevalent at the end of DB as well. Those flurry of punches are all over the place in DB.

The end of DB. The transitional point to DBZ, where things became more over-the-top.

For me they are the same story with a natural evolution but still the same story, this supposed "diference" between DB and DBZ is just a BS and arbitrary division made up by TOEI that unfortunately part of the fandon takes for grant without thinking.

Factually, they are the same series. But even if Toei didn't divide it, a lot of the fandom would at exactly the same point Gohan is introduced and Goku is revealed to be a saiyan. I'm positive about that because that would have inevitably been the first saga that aired in the US, with or without the DBZ name.

[ABED]

Spaceships, space itself, other planets (just Namek in the manga), aliens visiting Earth, alien technology (i.e. scouters, blasters, and saiyan armor), the protagonist and antagonists of Dragon Ball being revealed to have origins in other planets, a saga that emphasizes on (biological) androids created by collecting battle data and "cells" from everyone, time machines, etc. It wasn't a "focus," but it was much more prominent in comparison. Even more so when you look at the majority of the movies.
But the blasters aren't that different from stuff you'd find on Earth, the armor, the robots are kinds of things you'll find in DB. The cyborgs go back to the RR Army in DB, The final arc is very mystical based. The aliens are also very human looking.

The end of DB. The transitional point to DBZ, where things became more over-the-top.

Both Piccolo arcs are around 50 episodes. That's a third of the series, hardly what I'd call a transitional point.

Factually, they are the same series. But even if Toei didn't divide it, a lot of the fandom would at exactly the same point Gohan is introduced and Goku is revealed to be a saiyan. I'm positive about that because that would have inevitably been the first saga that aired in the US, with or without the DBZ name.

How do you know? Not being fussy, but how would you know FUNi would've aired that arc after the first 13 episodes tanked?

[fadeddreams5]

Both Piccolo arcs are around 50 episodes. That's a third of the series, hardly what I'd call a transitional point.

I was referring to the Piccolo Jr arc, which contains less than 30 episodes of battles.

By flurries of punches and kicks, I'm referring to those moments when the characters turn into little specks of light that collide into each other, making the planet shake and clouds dissipate or something. When the camera zooms in, they're seen throwing machine gun level kicks and punches at each other. By ki blasts, I was talking about ki spamming, which is not present in Dragon Ball--not at the level of DBZ. Another thing not present in Dragon Ball are characters enveloping themselves in auras before flying off at super sonic speeds--at the end of DB, they can barely fly! All of these things become a norm after, you guessed it, the Piccolo Jr saga.

How do you know? Not being fussy, but how would you know FUNi would've aired that arc after the first 13 episodes tanked?

First of all, I have no numbers to prove anything, but I have a gut feeling Dragon Ball Z had higher ratings and viewership than Dragon Ball in its entirety (POSSIBLY excluding the Piccolo saga, but I doubt it). If Dragon Ball flopped here and they noticed that the 2nd half of the series, which made a lot of changes, was having major success elsewhere, resulting in rapidly increasing ratings/viewership, it makes sense to air that.

Secondly, based on the story, it makes sense. The Piccolo Jr. saga ends with Goku finally becoming the world martial arts champion, defeating the major antagonist of the series, and getting married. The Saiyan saga begins after a long time skip, where Goku is older, a family man, and has a son. It begins with a reunion. It's an optimal point to start the story.

[TheUltimateVegito]

There's definitely differences, but not so much that I'd ever think they should be treated as completely different franchises. How someone could be a fan of one without at least having a healthy respect for the other, I've never completely understood, especially coming from DBZ fans towards DB. Without DB, there would be no Z.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Honestly though, I think the King Piccolo arc onwards is not really different than Z.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I have no numbers to prove anything, but I have a gut feeling Dragon Ball Z had higher ratings and viewership than Dragon Ball in its entirety (POSSIBLY excluding the Piccolo saga, but I doubt it). If Dragon Ball flopped here and they noticed that the 2nd half of the series, which made a lot of changes, was having major success elsewhere, resulting in rapidly increasing ratings/viewership, it makes sense to air that.

Actually DB on average had higher ratings then. DBZ in Japan. DBZ highest rated episode was lower then DB's highest rated and DBZ lowest rated episode was also lower then DB's lowest rates episode.

[fadeddreams5]

That's very interesting, though it is Japan.

I'd love to have international comparisons of all the DB shows.

[ABED]

Secondly, based on the story, it makes sense. The Piccolo Jr. saga ends with Goku finally becoming the world martial arts champion, defeating the major antagonist of the series, and getting married. The Saiyan saga begins after a long time skip, where Goku is older, a family man, and has a son. It begins with a reunion. It's an optimal point to start the story.

But so much stuff is lost by starting at that point. The impact of Piccolo's history with Goku, them teaming up with him is gone. We get it from context and what the characters say, but it's not as strong because the audience doesn't have the relationship with Piccolo. It also lessens the impact of Piccolo giving up his life to protect Gohan.

If Dragon Ball flopped here and they noticed that the 2nd half of the series

Dragon Ball flopped because of when it was aired. Hell, DBZ didn't even become a big success until it was aired on Cartoon Network. There was a period there when the fate of the series was unknown.

I was referring to the Piccolo Jr arc, which contains less than 30 episodes of battles.

It's not like the Saiyan arc was all battles.

By flurries of punches and kicks, I'm referring to those moments when the characters turn into little specks of light that collide into each other, making the planet shake and clouds dissipate or something. When the camera zooms in, they're seen throwing machine gun level kicks and punches at each other. By ki blasts, I was talking about ki spamming, which is not present in Dragon Ball--not at the level of DBZ. Another thing not present in Dragon Ball are characters enveloping themselves in auras before flying off at super sonic speeds--at the end of DB, they can barely fly! All of these things become a norm after, you guessed it, the Piccolo Jr saga.

It's a constant progression, but the characters started flying in the 22nd Budokai. There were flurries of punches and kicks, and once again, the show was constantly in a state of flux. DBZ isn't a 180 from DB, it's more like 10-20 degrees from the end of DB, if that. By the end of DB all of the main characters can fly, I'd hardly say "barely". The fight against Raditz has greater similarities to the fights against Piccolo than the fight against Nappa and Vegeta.

[fadeddreams5]

But so much stuff is lost by starting at that point. The impact of Piccolo's history with Goku, them teaming up with him is gone. We get it from context and what the characters say, but it's not as strong because the audience doesn't have the relationship with Piccolo. It also lessens the impact of Piccolo giving up his life to protect Gohan.

So much stuff is lost regardless of where you start, unless it's at the very beginning of Dragon Ball. The Saiyan saga works the best because the Piccolo Jr arc served as a closure to the first half of the series: after two failed attempts, Goku finally becomes world martial arts champion on the third; the main villain is beaten; and Goku, who was introduced as a kid, gets married. After a time skip, there's a reunion. This is perfect.

Dragon Ball flopped because of when it was aired. Hell, DBZ didn't even become a big success until it was aired on Cartoon Network. There was a period there when the fate of the series was unknown.

That's true, but I really don't see the first series becoming the hit DBZ did in the US if it came first.

It's not like the Saiyan arc was all battles.

I was writing in the context of battles.

It's a constant progression, but the characters started flying in the 22nd Budokai. There were flurries of punches and kicks, and once again, the show was constantly in a state of flux. DBZ isn't a 180 from DB, it's more like 10-20 degrees from the end of DB, if that. By the end of DB all of the main characters can fly, I'd hardly say "barely". The fight against Raditz has greater similarities to the fights against Piccolo than the fight against Nappa and Vegeta.

They can barely fly in comparison to how they do in DBZ--with the auras and speed. IIRC, they had just learned how to during the Piccolo Jr arc, besides Tien.

Don't mention Raditz. Raditz is like the first boss of a video game that teaches players how to play before the adventure begins. He was cannon fodder that still made a joke out of the main protagonist and antagonist of DB. Naturally, the story was going to pick up at, more or less, their level of power at the end of Dragon Ball.

Yes, there were gradual increases in power throughout Dragon Ball, but none as drastic as the one after the Raditz arc. This is when the battles became more over-the-top than ever before. This is when things changed. And this is reflected in the very story through PLs, which indicate that the characters are nearly 10x stronger than they were before (Goku being 30x+ more). These are greater increases than the characters experienced from the start to the end of DB, and it's visually demonstrated through everything I mentioned before. This becomes a norm and also gradually increases with time.

[ABED]

They can barely fly in comparison to how they do in DBZ--with the auras and speed. IIRC, they had just learned how to during the Piccolo Jr arc, besides Tenshinhan.

They could fly with speed in DB and I don't recall the auras occurring until towards the late Saiyan arc. Yes, there's a change, but it's not sudden, and it's a constant increase over the course of the story.

The Saiyan saga works the best because the Piccolo Jr arc served as a closure to the first half of the series: after two failed attempts, Goku finally becomes world martial arts champion on the third; the main villain is beaten; and Goku, who was introduced as a kid, gets married. After a time skip, there's a reunion. This is perfect.

Yes, there's a sense of closure, but the Saiyan arc is still an arbitrary starting point, other arcs have timeskips, and the impact of the things I mentioned are so much less meaningful if you begin in the middle of the story. There's a reunion, but it's not a reintroduction to the series and its characters, it's just another chapter in the story. That reunion isn't as meaningful because you don't really know them, it's not the best introduction to the story. It's not like starting with Star Wars: A New Hope.

That's true, but I really don't see the first series becoming the hit DBZ did in the US if it came first.

Not arguing what was more popular, just that it makes zero sense to begin with what was more popular simply because it was more popular. It makes far more sense to tell the story from the beginning. DBZ's relative popularity is irrelevant. DB had already become popular in Japan during the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai. The series reaching its peak of popularity later isn't important to the argument about how different the two series are because they are all one story.

Don't mention Raditz. Raditz is like the first boss of a video game that teaches players how to play before the adventure begins. He was cannon fodder that still made a joke out of the main protagonist and antagonist of DB. Naturally, the story was going to pick up at, more or less, their level of power at the end of Dragon Ball.

Please stop make those sorts of arbitrary distinctions just because it goes against what you say. Raditz wasn't cannon fodder. It took the main character dying in order to stop him. First, Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr. are transitions, and now Raditz is doesn't count.

This is when the battles became more over-the-top than ever before. This is when things changed.

They ALWAYS changed. Tone changed, characters changed, sure the scales increased, but please don't bring up power levels. They went completely off the scale and got to the point of ridiculousness. So much of it was told but not shown. After Freeza blows up a planet, it becomes impossible to visually demonstrate greater power than that. And more doesn't equate to better. Things weren't in stasis until DBZ. It wasn't like incremental progress until DBZ, things always increased exponentially from the very beginning. If we us your logic, why not make the split at the Buu arc? Buu is to Freeza what Freeza was to Piccolo Daimao.

I was writing in the context of battles.

The amount of fighting in the 23rd Budokai and the Saiyan arc is about the same.

[fadeddreams5]

They could fly with speed in DB and I don't recall the auras occurring until towards the late Saiyan arc. Yes, there's a change, but it's not sudden, and it's a constant increase over the course of the story.

Krillin literally just showed he learned to fly in his battle with Jr. The change after the Raditz arc is drastic and becomes a norm.

Yes, there's a sense of closure, but the Saiyan arc is still an arbitrary starting point, other arcs have timeskips, and the impact of the things I mentioned are so much less meaningful if you begin in the middle of the story. There's a reunion, but it's not a reintroduction to the series and its characters, it's just another chapter in the story. That reunion isn't as meaningful because you don't really know them, it's not the best introduction to the story. It's not like starting with Star Wars: A New Hope.

I'm guessing you just generally dislike that "DBZ" is a thing (and Kai, at that, as a result...). This is the only time skip that makes sense to start in.

Not arguing what was more popular, just that it makes zero sense to begin with what was more popular simply because it was more popular. It makes far more sense to tell the story from the beginning. DBZ's relative popularity is irrelevant. DB had already become popular in Japan during the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai. The series reaching its peak of popularity later isn't important to the argument about how different the two series are because they are all one story.

It sort of does. If DB flopped, it wouldn't even reach the part known as DBZ. You know, unless they skipped forward, which is what they did.

Please stop make those sorts of arbitrary distinctions just because it goes against what you say. Raditz wasn't cannon fodder. It took the main character dying in order to stop him. First, Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr. are transitions, and now Raditz is doesn't count.

The Piccolo Daimao arc directly follows the Tien arc and continues Kid Goku's story. The Piccolo Jr arc follows this and provides closure to Goku, but not before serving as a transitional point to DBZ since Goku is older and gets married too. The Raditz arc naturally follows their level of strength here; things weren't just going to randomly change. He serves as an introduction of what's to come. And after this bridge, everyone changes and battles become far more over-the-top.

The changes were always gradual, but after Raditz, who again, serves to teach Goku and the others that there are far stronger people outside his planet, the change is rather extreme.

They ALWAYS changed. Tone changed, characters changed, sure the scales increased, but please don't bring up power levels. They went completely off the scale and got to the point of ridiculousness. So much of it was told but not shown. After Freeza blows up a planet, it becomes impossible to visually demonstrate greater power than that. And more doesn't equate to better. Things weren't in stasis until DBZ. It wasn't like incremental progress until DBZ, things always increased exponentially from the very beginning. If we us your logic, why not make the split at the Buu arc? Buu is to Freeza what Freeza was to Piccolo Daimao.

Because I'm referring entirely to how battles are visually presented based on the changes that occurred specifically after the Raditz arc. This was fairly consistent throughout the entire series, no matter how much stronger characters became (compare the Frieza battle to any battle in Buu saga).

[ABED]

Krillin literally just showed he learned to fly in his battle with Jr. The change after the Raditz arc is drastic and becomes a norm.

He SHOWED, but he could fly. Whether it was the norm isn't important, the change started earlier, and even by the time Goku arrives on Earth after his revival, he rides Kinto Un to conserve energy. The characters are constantly learning new techniques and improving.

I'm guessing you just generally dislike that "DBZ" is a thing (and Kai, at that, as a result...). This is the only time skip that makes sense to start in.

No, i dislike (strong word) that people make more out of an arbitrary name change like it's a radically different series. Kai has it's purpose since it was to show the series without the filler. It makes far more sense to start from the beginning. Who starts in the middle of a story?

sort of does. If DB flopped, it wouldn't even reach the part known as DBZ. You know, unless they skipped forward, which is what they did.

It flopped because of the channel and the timeslot. DBZ only started truly succeeding once it was on Cartoon Network.

He serves as an introduction of what's to come

It's not an intro, it's another chapter in the story. Yes, there was closure at the end of the Piccolo arc, but that doesn't make it a different show. There was also closure at the end of a number of seasons of TV shows such as Buffy, 24, Supernatural, and The Wire. That doesn't make them different shows. You keep trying to contort your argument to fit your thesis. Now the Piccolo arcs and the first few episodes of DBZ are transitions, so they don't count. Freeza was a different level to the villains Goku fought before, just like Vegeta was, and Raditz was, and before that Piccolo was.

And after this bridge, everyone changes and battles become far more over-the-top.

They are always changing, and always over the top. The speed increases, but that's not enough to say "this is a VERY different show". Especially not so much that the score is radically different.

who again, serves to teach Goku and the others that there are far stronger people outside his planet, the change is rather extreme.

Goku is constantly taught this lesson. That's something Muten Roshi instilled in him from the beginning - there's always someone stronger.

Bottom line, there are certainly unique qualities to DBZ, but it's not so different from DB that we should consider them radically different entities.

[fadeddreams5]

No, i dislike (strong word) that people make more out of an arbitrary name change like it's a radically different series. Kai has it's purpose since it was to show the series without the filler. It makes far more sense to start from the beginning. Who starts in the middle of a story?

I wouldn't call it a radically different series. I just feel it has enough differences to make distinctions between the two. Also, I feel that thanks to these differences, the divide at the point it occurred makes sense.

It flopped because of the channel and the timeslot. DBZ only started truly succeeding once it was on Cartoon Network.

I know. I'm referring to the hypothetical scenario where Dragon Ball would have aired where Dragon Ball Z did instead, and they never skipped forward.

I truly don't believe it would have become as popular at all if it began in the Pilaf saga, but that's just me. We'll never know.

It's not an intro, it's another chapter in the story. Yes, there was closure at the end of the Piccolo arc, but that doesn't make it a different show. There was also closure at the end of a number of seasons of TV shows such as Buffy, 24, Supernatural, and The Wire. That doesn't make them different shows. You keep trying to contort your argument to fit your thesis. Now the Piccolo arcs and the first few episodes of DBZ are transitions, so they don't count. Freeza was a different level to the villains Goku fought before, just like Vegeta was, and Raditz was, and before that Piccolo was.

I'm not saying the Raditz arc doesn't count as part of DBZ. I'm saying it doesn't count in the argument of battles because the characters didn't become 10x-30x more powerful until after this point BECAUSE of something Raditz served as the catalyst for. It's not the actual growth in strength I'm referring to, but how it and the battles are visually presented from this point forward. After this, everyone and their mothers can fly at rapid speeds and spam ki blasts. Both flight and ki beams were fairly limited at the end of DB / Raditz arc before training.

Bottom line, there are certainly unique qualities to DBZ, but it's not so different from DB that we should consider them radically different entities.

I see them as different entities, but not radically different either. One fits really well as a continuation series to the other. Toei did a good job splitting them.

[ABED]

Also, I feel that thanks to these differences, the divide at the point it occurred makes sense.

That's not the question before the court.

I see them as different entities

How? It's the same story. It's like a kid who has a huge growth spurt. It's still the same child.

One fits really well as a continuation series to the other.

That's not shocking considering that it's all DB.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

I´m starting to think that fadeddreams5 takes DB & DBZ entities as different entities just because the former is "light and humorous" and the later is "dark, edgy and gritty" or some similar mentality.

[MajinMan]

I mean, it's the same series. It's not like DBZ came out a year after DB as a sequal. It just continued on just like the manga did. Sure, it's true that DBZ is a bit more serious, but that's because DB led into DBZ with that type of tone. It's the same reason Super is the way it is.

[irreality]

I truly don't believe it would have become as popular at all if it began in the Pilaf saga, but that's just me. We'll never know.

Eh, Pilaf saga is only like 13 episodes -- I like them but if people want to skip them, sure. In a once a day broadcast that is like 2.5 weeks. I think by the start of Muten Roshi's training, the first budoukai, RR saga, etc. by that point, although a bit more humorous, there are no elements there that doesn't mesh in general with the sort of story people were looking for out of DBZ: martial arts anime with superhuman feats, energy beams, and some scifi elements like superpowered robots.

You could say well, the original ocean dub only showed those first 13 episodes and flopped, but to some extent so did the original Saban dub of DBZ -- it was cartoon network that saved the series in the US, really (and the redubbing), where both series did fine -- but DB wasn't aired until years later.

In lots of latin america, for example, they aired DB, then DBZ, then DBGT in order (with reruns to catch people up who didn't start at the beginning, of course), and it never suffered from lack of popularity: if anything, it is way more popular there.

[fadeddreams5]

I´m starting to think that fadeddreams5 takes DB & DBZ entities as different entities just because the former is "light and humorous" and the later is "dark, edgy and gritty" or some similar mentality.

I feel they are different entities because as far as the anime and merchandising, including video games, are concerned, they are different entities. =P

But that aside, I've already pointed the facts that allow people to differentiate the two:

DB - Follows the story of Kid Goku as he embarks outside the little shack and forest he grew up in it and explores the planet. The Piccolo Jr arc, which is a direct continuation of the Piccolo Daimao saga shows a teen Goku, which is appropriate since he gets married after this point, but not before defeating the main villain and becoming the world martial arts champion after so many failed attempts throughout the series--closure!

DBZ - Follows the story of an adult Goku, who is now a family man, and his son, Gohan. Despite being the protagonist, his presence isn't as prominent as it was in DB, with him sitting on the sidelines or occupied a lot while other characters gain the spotlight.

DB - The structure of the series follows an adventure > tournament > adventure > tournament pattern. The adventures usually entail exploring the planet in search of something. The only exception is the Piccolo Daimao saga, but the arc after it once again follows the tournament pattern, despite the higher stakes.

DBZ - The traditional tournaments (both the setting and structure of those arcs) are gone. Every saga involves a major, universe-endangering villain, which is something the Piccolo Daimao arc was a predecessor to (note: Kid Goku was still present), but this half of the story focuses primarily on. At this point, characters are too fast and strong for the traditional "adventure" aspect of Dragon Ball to work. For example, throughout DBZ, whenever characters need the dragon balls, they get them all in a single episode. lol. Technically, the Namek saga can count as one, but the "major villain" aspect is what allows it to work in the first place.

DB - Battles are initially very gag-orientated. This changes by the Tien arc, and characters gradually become stronger, learning how to manipulate ki better and fly during the final arc.

DBZ - The story naturally begins with the level of power DB left off at, but Raditz, a low level saiyan, is able to make quick work of both the main protagonist and antagonist. He served as a catalyst to what was to come, and as a result, the characters trained and became several times (like 10x-30x) more powerful than they were before, an increase greater than Goku had from the beginning to the end of DB. Not only is this rather extreme, but it is visually presented as such, both in and outside battles. From this point forward, characters travel at extreme speeds by flight, are able to spam ki blasts like machine guns, are overall more adept to ki-related moves, many battles take place primarily in the sky, etc. This is probably the major difference between the two parts that most people instantly point out to (besides the Kid Goku thing), as action also becomes a greater emphasis in DBZ (I'm including the movies here btw). And mind you, I am NOT referring to general strength increases, but specifically how battles are visually presented from the (post-Raditz arc) saiyan saga and on. The Goku vs Frieza or Vegeta battle is similar to any Buu one, but compare any of those to ones from DB, and they're very different. That's not to say they're better or worse than DB fights, which were really great themselves, but are far more over-the-top.

DB - No saiyans.

DBZ - Saiyans. Why is this important? Because it paved way to concepts such as zenkai and super saiyan transformations.

These are pretty much facts.

And mind you, I'm not saying they are radically different, just that they are different enough to make a distinction; the split makes sense, especially when you take into consideration the time gap in the middle. It's a perfect "Part 1, Part 2" situation, and I'm glad they did it. I love both. <3

In lots of latin america, for example, they aired DB, then DBZ, then DBGT in order (with reruns to catch people up who didn't start at the beginning, of course), and it never suffered from lack of popularity: if anything, it is way more popular there.

I really wish I could get international ratings of these shows to compare them all in their prime. I still feel DB wouldn't have been quite as successful in the US if they went about it chronologically. That's not to say it would have flopped at all, but I just don't see it attaining the popularity DBZ did at the time... until it reached the Piccolo (maybe Tien) part. But who knows.

[ABED]

the Piccolo Daimao arc was a predecessor to

And Piccolo's offspring, the fact that the final fight took place at a tournament doesn't change the stakes, Goku was fighting for the fate of the world.

Follows the story of an adult Goku

He was an adult at the end of DB, 18 is an adult.

him sitting on the sidelines or occupied a lot while other characters gain the spotlight.

Goku's not on the sidelines, he's usually trying to get somewhere. He was still the focus in the Saiyan arc.

Battles are initially very gag-orientated. This changes by the Tenshinhan arc

That changed WELL before the Tenshinhan arc.

I still feel DB wouldn't have been quite as successful in the US if they went about it chronologically. That's not to say it would have flopped at all, but I just don't see it attaining the popularity DBZ did at the time

No one is saying DB would've been as popular as Z, that's not even the question being asked.

DBZ isn't a different entity than DB like Frasier is a different entity from Cheers.

That's not to say it would have flopped at all, but I just don't see it attaining the popularity DBZ did at the time... until it reached the Piccolo (maybe Tenshinhan) part. But who knows.

I don't think anyone here was making that point. In the US, DBZ is more popular and that portion of the show would still likely remain the most popular even if DB and DBZ were aired in order or as all one series.

[theoriginalbilis]

VegettoEX hit the nail on the head in terms of how I feel about people treating DB & DBZ as different entities. (i.e, justification for their preferences of the Z dub's different script, character motivations, and musical direction.)

Overall, there isn't much of a difference to me in terms of DB/DBZ; and the differences that are there are due to mostly natural story and time progression. Some new characters and transformations aren't enough to justify them as "different entities." Thematically, DBZ's content is pretty much the same as the content in DB.

I refer to DB/DBZ as just "Dragon Ball" usually, because all (non-filler) events happen under the original comic's name: Dragon Ball. Makes sense, doesn't it? Also, like I mentioned in a previous thread, the Saiyan arc started literally the week after the end of the 23rd Budokai material. Same original author, same artists, same writing staff, same director. The only thing we got was an extra letter added the end of Dragon Ball and a new set of intros (which is common for most longer-running anime at some point.)

And for anyone who says that the Saiyan arc was the first big shift towards "serious-mode", just remember that the Piccolo Daimao arc is a revenge story at it's core.

[fadeddreams5]

And Piccolo's offspring, the fact that the final fight took place at a tournament doesn't change the stakes, Goku was fighting for the fate of the world.

Yeah, but it still follows the tournament structure of DB.

He was an adult at the end of DB, 18 is an adult.

Eighteen is a teenager. Age of majority varies in the real world, but in Japan, 20 is considered an adult.

Goku's not on the sidelines, he's usually trying to get somewhere. He was still the focus in the Saiyan arc.

That's why I wrote "or occupied." In the Cell saga, he has to be sidelined due to the heart condition. Same thing in the Buu saga cause he's dead.

That changed WELL before the Tenshinhan arc.

Okay...

No one is saying DB would've been as popular as Z, that's not even the question being asked.

DBZ isn't a different entity than DB like Frasier is a different entity from Cheers.

I don't think anyone here was making that point. In the US, DBZ is more popular and that portion of the show would still likely remain the most popular even if DB and DBZ were aired in order or as all one series.

Yes, but you have to remember the era DBZ aired on Toonami in the US. There was a surge of popular action-orientated anime incoming. If DB went below expectations/ratings, who was to stop them from replacing it early with another hit anime? If that happened, they may have also skipped forward to the part they thought would improve them. But again, this is hypothetical.