Powerlevels

[Xyex]

First, I was wondering what everyone else thought of their existence. I've seen some people who didn't like them and others that did. Personally I like powerlevels, especially from the stand point of a Fanfiction writer. Having numbers that denote strength allows me to keep straight how much power person A has against B, how much power they gain after transformations, etc.

Secondly, I was wondering if anyone else ever tried to establish an estimate as to the powers of everyone after Future Trunks's supressed 5? I've been working on a set for the past month or so that, I think, is pretty decent.

[Kodoshin]

I don't like them, simply because they made it so that several characters became good-for-nothings.

[James R. Cadwell]

Secondly, I was wondering if anyone else ever tried to establish an estimate as to the powers of everyone after Future Trunks's supressed 5? I've been working on a set for the past month or so that, I think, is pretty decent.

Personally, I don't think it's possible to even "guesstimate" what the power levels were after the Freeza Saga. They never increased consistantly and they don't even appear to be linearly scaled.

I am, however, interested in seeing your estimates. Are you planning to post them?

[Xyex]

Yeah, from Future Trunks arrival - Kid Buu. I was doing a few more tweaks to them. That was going to be my third point, what everyone thought of my powers list.

Note: Updated 04/26/04
New additions are ONLY in bold, modifed listings are in BOTH bold AND italics.

Trunks Saga
Trunks - 350,000
+ SSJ - 17,600,000
Goku - 420,000
+ SSJ - 21,100,000
C. Frieza - 13,000,000
King Cold - 13,500,000

Android Saga
Goku - 800,000
+ SSJ - 30,000,000
+ Virus - 3,000,000
Vegeta - 1,200,000
+ SSJ - 34,500,000
Piccolo - 11,800,000
Android 20 - 5,000,000
+ energy - 8,000,000
Android 19 - 5,000,000
+ energy - 14,000,000
Android 18 - 40,000,000
Android 17 - 42,000,000
Android 16 - 50,000,000

Cell Saga
Piccolo - 45,000,000 (Kami fusion)
+ Tired - 35,000,000 (After fighting 17)
Vegeta - 1,800,000
+ SSJ - 48,750,000
+ USSJ - 103,650,000
Trunks - 1,300,000
+ SSJ - 35,250,000
+ USSJ - 98,750,000
+ USSJ2 - 152,625,000
Tien - 500,000
+ Shin Kikiho - 50,000,000
Krillin - 365,000
Yamcha - 215,000
Cell - 43,000,000
+ H energy - 45,000,000
+ Semi-perfect - 90,000,000
+ Perfect - 150,000,000
+ Full power - 195,000,000

Cell Games Saga
Hercule - 82
Piccolo - 53,000,000
Trunks - 1,500,000
+ SSJ - 61,500,000
+ USSJ - 135,300,000
Vegeta - 2,000,000
+ SSJ - 65,000,000
+ USSJ - 143,000,000
Goku - 1,850,000
+ SSJ - 92,500,000
+ USSJ - 203,500,000 (Not used)
Gohan - 2,100,000
+ SSJ - 105,000,000
+ SSJ2 - 525,000,000
+ Injured - 262,500,000
+ Kamehameha - 375,000,000
Cell - 150,000,000
+ Vs. Goku - 100,000,000
+ FP - 195,000,000
+ Explosion - 160,000,000
+ Super Perfect - 300,000,000
+ F Kamehameha - 350,000,000
Pikkon - 410,000,000 (Otherworld Tournament)

Buu Saga
Hercule - 82
Videl - 120
Spoppovitch - 500
Goten - 195,000
+ SSJ - 10,000,000
Trunks - 230,000
+ SSJ - 12,500,000
Gotenks - 4,250,000
+ SSJ - 170,000,000
+ SSJ2 - 600,000,000
+ SSJ3 - 830,000,000
Goku - 3,650,00
+ SSJ - 125,000,000
+ SSJ2 - 530,000,000
+ SSJ3 - 780,000,000
Vegeta - 4,000,000
+ SSJ - 120,000,000
+ Majin - 535,000,000
+ SSJ2 - 515,000,000
Vegetto - 153,500,000
+ Super Vegetto - 2,500,000,000
Gohan - 1,550,000
+ SSJ - 80,000,000
+ SSJ2 - 300,000,000
+ Mystic - 950,000,000
Supreme Kai - 200,000,000
Kibitoshin - 350,000,000
Dabura - 335,000,000
Fat Buu - 550,000,000
+ Angry - 650,000,000
Mr. Buu - 450,000,000
Evil Buu - 650,000,000
Super Buu - 800,000,000
Super Buu 1.5 - 850,000,000
Super Buu 2 - 1,300,000,000
Super Buu 3 - 1,800,000,000
Kid Buu - 750,000,000
Yamcha - 185,000
Krillin - 390,00
Tien - 895,000
+ Shin Kikiho - 134,250
Uub - 5,000,000 (Ten years later tournamnet.)

[James R. Cadwell]

Yeah, from Future Trunks arrival - Kid Buu. I was doing a few more tweaks to them. That was going to be my third point, what everyone thought of my powers list.

I think that your estimates of Freeza and King Cold's power levels are fairly reasonable. However; the difference between Super Saiya-jin Trunks and Freeza strikes me as being too small. By your estimates, Freeza had about 80% of Trunks's power level. In the Saiya-jin Saga, Goku's scouter reading was only equivalent to 35% of Radditz's own, but he was able to survive fighting with him for a little while. Trunks appeared to have a much greater advantage, IMHO.

You also have "Artificial Humans" #16, #17 and #18 with about half of "Semi-Perfect" Cell's power level. If that were the case, then it seems like #16 and #18 would have had much more success with fighting Cell than they actually did in the series.

Mr. Satan - 21
Videl - 39

This one seems a little tricky to me. I suppose it really depends on what the scouters were measuring when they scanned someone. Mr. Satan has actually demonstrated far, far more durability than Videl. He got knocked 20 meters through the air by Cell and (IIRC) was also smacked by "Kid" Buu once and survived. Videl can obviously manipulate "ki" better than her father, but I don't think she's quite as physically resilient.

Chibi Trunks - 1,000,000
+ SSJ - 42,000,00

One million seems a little too high. Chibi Trunks couldn't handle 150G in Vegeta's gravity chamber, and Goku could tolerate about 70% of that before he landed on Namek in the Freeza Saga. I'd say something closer to Goku's scouter reading when he fought Ginyu would be more accurate.

Goku - 3,650,000
+ SSJ - 125,000,000
+ SSJ2 - 530,000,000
+ SSJ3 - 780,000,000

The difference between Super Saiya-jin 2 and Super Saiya-jin 3 should be much larger than a 30% increase. Otherwise Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku and Vegeta should have been able to handle fighting "Kid" Buu easily.

You also pegged Kaioshin at about fifty times stronger than Goku in his normal form, but (IIRC) Kaioshin thought it would be necessary to gang up against Pui-Pui. Vegeta finished him easily without transforming into a Super Saiya-jin. This is the same Kaioshin who said he could beat Freeza effortlessly.

I think you should consider (if you already aren't doing this) looking at the differences in scouter readings between fighters in the Saiya-jin and Freeza Sagas, and then comparing their performances to those of the characters who fight later in the series.

For example: Nail couldn't affect Freeza at all, who had a scouter reading about ten times larger than his. This is similar to the way that #16 wasn't able to affect "Semi-Perfect Cell", so I'd say the difference in power levels might be roughly equivalent.

[Adamant]

Android 17 - 42,000,000
Piccolo - 45,000,000 (Kami fusion)

The difference wasn't that huge. #17 would've defeated Piccolo if Cell didn't interrupt due to the fact that his energy was infinite, so there's no way Piccolo was that much stronger.

I believe someone (either #17 or #16, I think) said they were pretty much equal in strength.

[James R. Cadwell]

Android 17 - 42,000,000
Piccolo - 45,000,000 (Kami fusion)

The difference wasn't that huge. #17 would've defeated Piccolo if Cell didn't interrupt due to the fact that his energy was infinite, so there's no way Piccolo was that much stronger.

I believe someone (either #17 or #16, I think) said they were pretty much equal in strength.

The difference isn't that huge. Xyex has #17 with about 95% of Piccolo's power. They are pretty much equal in strength.

I think it makes sense that Piccolo had a minor initial advantage, otherwise #17 would have started overpowering him very quickly as the fight progressed.

[Professor Daravon]

A couple things to mention. First of all, we only have one official power level for a Super Saiya-jin: Goku during the Freeza fight. So it's not like there's an abundance of evidence there to support any ideas on how much power the SSJ upgrade actually affords someone. That said, I don't think it was a coincidence that Goku's SSJ power (15 million) just happened to be exactly fifty times his base level (300,000). So if I were making this list, and I settled on a 350,000 base level for Trunks, I would probably rate him at 17.5 million; with a 420,000 base level for Goku, 21 million; and so on.

I've only scanned the list, and it seems that a lot of it has already been addressed, so I'm not really going to look at everything and comment. But I do have one more thing to address, and that's the power of Mr. Satan and Videl. I think you have them both rated far too low. I believe it only took place in the anime, so it's up to you whether you choose to include it as canon information, but Mr. Satan did drag several buses across an arena. And as was already stated, he took a few good hits from both Cell and Buu. Bear in mind that the farmer at the beginning of DBZ, who was probably pretty average and certainly looked like nothing special, had a rating of 5. Is Mr. Satan, the Tenkaichi Budokai champion, really only four times as strong as that guy? I would place him at least in Muten Roshi range (139), and probably even a little higher than that. He doesn't have the ability to use his ki and he's probably just not as good a fighter as Muten Roshi, but as far as physical strength goes, he's probably stronger. All that said, Gohan mentions at one point that Videl is even stronger than her father. Besides that, we're told (several times, if memory serves) that flying gives off a lot of energy. I doubt it can be done with a level of 39. You were on the right track rating Videl higher than Satan. Just...raise both their power levels substantially.

[James R. Cadwell]

Bear in mind that the farmer at the beginning of DBZ, who was probably pretty average and certainly looked like nothing special, had a rating of 5. Is Mr. Satan, the Tenkaichi Budokai champion, really only four times as strong as that guy? I would place him at least in Muten Roshi range (139), and probably even a little higher than that. He doesn't have the ability to use his ki and he's probably just not as good a fighter as Muten Roshi, but as far as physical strength goes, he's probably stronger.

A linear scale would suggest that Kamesennin is only about thirty times stronger than a farmer, but that's far too conservative to be accurate. I'd say that the power level scale is actually exponential, although it doesn't really become an issue until there's already a huge difference in numbers.

With an exponential scale in mind, a scouter reading of 20 could really indicate strength dozens of times greater than a scouter reading of 5.

All that said, Gohan mentions at one point that Videl is even stronger than her father.

Gohan would be sensing that Videl's "ki" is greater than Mr. Satan's own, so I'm guessing that her scouter reading would probably be significantly higher than her father's. But Mr. Satan has some kind of super-durability weirdness working for him that makes him as resilient as someone with a lot more power.

Besides that, we're told (several times, if memory serves) that flying gives off a lot of energy. I doubt it can be done with a level of 39. You were on the right track rating Videl higher than Satan. Just...raise both their power levels substantially.

Yeah, I'm fairly sure that Kuririn (or Gohan) mentions that flying uses a lot of energy in the Freeza Saga. However; there's probably a difference between the scouter readings ("battle power") and normal energy usage. Dende and Puaru can both fly, and I doubt their power levels are particularly impressive.

[Xyex]

Android 17 - 42,000,000
Piccolo - 45,000,000 (Kami fusion)

The difference wasn't that huge. #17 would've defeated Piccolo if Cell didn't interrupt due to the fact that his energy was infinite, so there's no way Piccolo was that much stronger.

I believe someone (either #17 or #16, I think) said they were pretty much equal in strength.

The difference isn't that huge. Xyex has #17 with about 95% of Piccolo's power. They are pretty much equal in strength.

I think it makes sense that Piccolo had a minor initial advantage, otherwise #17 would have started overpowering him very quickly as the fight progressed.

Indeed, during the course of the fight Piccolo's power does go down:

Piccolo - 45,000,000 (Kami fusion)
+ Tired - 35,000,000 (After fighting 17)

So it's not like Piccolo would have just pulled out the victory either. He was getting tired, he used up a good deal of power with his Scatter Shot, and 17 was still in perfect shape. Even if Cell had not come along Piccolo would have lost the fight uless he used a well placed 'Special Beam Cannon' (Can never remember how it's spelled the other way :/).

A couple things to mention. First of all, we only have one official power level for a Super Saiya-jin: Goku during the Freeza fight. So it's not like there's an abundance of evidence there to support any ideas on how much power the SSJ upgrade actually affords someone. That said, I don't think it was a coincidence that Goku's SSJ power (15 million) just happened to be exactly fifty times his base level (300,000). So if I were making this list, and I settled on a 350,000 base level for Trunks, I would probably rate him at 17.5 million; with a 420,000 base level for Goku, 21 million; and so on.

At the beggining I was planning on using a 50 fold increase for Super Saiya-jin followed by a 3 fold increase for SSJ2 and a 2.5 increase for SSJ3. However, Vegeta's high powerlevel at the begining through a monkey wrench into that. Because base Vegeta has so much damn power giving him the same increase would have made him strong enough to beat even Android 16 let alone 18 and I didn't want the Androids powers to be extreamly absurdly high. So every SSJ after C. Frieza's defeat is estimation. I took the SSJ form as being, not a set or constant transformation, but powered by skill, emotion, clarity, and a few other factors.

This is most greatly highlighted here:

Trunks - 1,500,000
+ SSJ - 61,500,000
+ USSJ - 135,300,000
Vegeta - 2,000,000
+ SSJ - 65,000,000
+ USSJ - 143,000,000
Goku - 1,850,000
+ SSJ - 92,500,000
+ USSJ - 203,500,000 (Not used)
Gohan - 2,100,000
+ SSJ - 105,000,000

Note the much greater power boost the SSJ affords to both Goku and Gohan as opposed to Trunks and Vegeta. This is fuled partly by Gohan and Goku's familiarty with the SSJ state which gives them greater 'clarity' and enhances their 'skill' at using it. They are also more calm and relaxed as SSJ's since they don't need to build the emotions up to attain the form for the Cell Games.

A linear scale would suggest that Kamesennin is only about thirty times stronger than a farmer, but that's far too conservative to be accurate. I'd say that the power level scale is actually exponential, although it doesn't really become an issue until there's already a huge difference in numbers.

With an exponential scale in mind, a scouter reading of 20 could really indicate strength dozens of times greater than a scouter reading of 5.

And here is the biggest issue when dealing with powerlevels. Is the difference in powers between two sets of people measured the same way? For example, does person A at 400 and person B at 4,000 have the same gap of power as person C at 400,000 and person D at 4,000,000? Yes, there are more numbers, but the percentage remains the same. So is it linear, non-linear recessive, or non-linear exponential?

First, I'll explain the above terms and give a few quick examples. With the aforementioned example, when viewed in a linear scale, both sets of people would be ten times different than their counter part (i.e. B is 10x stronger than A and D is 10x stronger than C). Also, the change from A to D would be a set difference of 10,000 fold. However, a good example of this failing is comparing the fight against Nappa to the fight against Ginyu, or the fight of Goku vs. Frieza.

The Z Warriors were about 1/4 the strength of Nappa and couldn't hurt him to badly, but they could survive for a time. Yet Ginyu was 2/3 the strength of Goku and knew he didn't have chance against him. At start of the Goku Vs. Frieza fight Goku is at 6,000,000 (KKx20) and Frieza is at 8,000,000. Yet Goku get's his butt kicked. Then, as a SSJ Goku has 15,000,000 and Frieza maxs out at 12,500,000 (I think, maybe only 12 even). And here, with a greater difference in power, Frieza actually shows several signs that he could win the fight. This means linear is impossible.

Non-linear recessive would mean that each 'point' of energy is worth less and less as you gain in strength. For example, in a match of 400 against 1,000 the 400 could come out on top, the difference isn't so great to prove an absolute victory for the 1,000. Now, increase those powers. 400,000 vs. 1,000,000. The 400,000 would have an even great chance of winning in this battle then the previous one because, though the percentage is the same, the true difference in power is smaller. This wouldn't work to well either, especially in the higher powers because then 40,000,000 would be able to stand up to 100,000,000 with little trouble.

So, non-linear exponentail is about all that seems to work. In that system each point of power is worth the same, not more as most would think. How does that work? Well, one point of power would always = A% no matter how much strength you have there-by making 40,000,000 exponentially stronger than, say 30,000,00. I'll try an example. Let's say that A% = 1, or that each point of power equals 1% of your strength exponentially. In that case A% of 100 would be 1. Then, A% of 500 would be 5. So, in the actuall scale here the difference in power between 100 and 500 is not 5 fold but, in fact, 500 fold. Does that make any sense what so ever? Right, now you see the probelm. None of these systems function, so then, what would function?

Alright, here's what I've worked together, it's a combatnation of the three above systems. At all times power is linear in nature. A difference of 50% is always a difference of 50%. The non-linear effect of power is where things get confusing. Alright, 500 is %50 less than 1,000. That means that 1,000 is 100% more than 500. Yet when thought of in terms of power which seems greater? Being twice as strong as someone, or being half as strong as someone? That's where the non-linear effect applies. At close range powers, say within 10% or so, the difference is effectively minimal since you nearly point for point counter the other person. However, as the bredth of range between opposing powers widens, the effective power is increased. A 'Feels Like' effect if you will.

How is this accounted for? Well, a person's powerlevel dosen't just denote strength but defense as well, something commonly overlooked. The greater the difference in powers the more damage you'll take/dish out effectively making the stronger person feel even stronger.

When viewed on higher levels of power this scale actually shrinks at first, before expanding. In other words he 'feel like' power of someone at 500 against someone of 200 would drop at 50,000 vs. 20,000 and then build again at 50,000,000 vs. 20,000,000 but never to the same level as it was at 500 vs 200.

If this makes any sense to you, good. If not... I can't explain it any other way...

[Dayspring]

The problem with Vegeta's insane SSJ PL at the beggining is that when Trunks kills Freeza we KNOW he already has a base PL of way over 1,000,000 (Stronger than Form 3 Freeza who kicked Piccolo's ass who had a PL of 1 mil). To let 3 years of intense training go by and THEN multiply the result by 50 (when he goes SSJ) sends his PL at like 75 mil or something. Crazyness. Then SSJ2 comes and doubles SSJ increase, and SSJ3 triples that. That's 300 times the person's base! What are our power levels now? In the billions?

[Sun_Wukong]

After Trunks arrives, powerlevels are useless, 'nuff said.

[Xyex]

Indeed. I mean, the way Vegeta trains sometimes he could have easily hit two, three million by the point of the Android 19 but then his SSJ power would be between 150 - 200 million and that's just insane. I typically tone him, and everyone, down in my lisitngs.

I mean, what did Goku do as kid, sit on rock and twidle his tumbs all day? He must have if he only reached around 400 in YEARS of training and yet, in under two years, reaches 300,000. I'll give him the benefit of having been dead and gaining special training for one of those years but still...

[Dayspring]

More funny is how 2 months for Vegeta took him from 18,000 to over 3 million.

I think the PL instability is why when we next see them they only make a "cameo" of sorts, and even then in a new unit of measure (SSJ2 Goku = 3000 kilis)

[James R. Cadwell]

Indeed. I mean, the way Vegeta trains sometimes he could have easily hit two, three million by the point of the Android 19 but then his SSJ power would be between 150 - 200 million and that's just insane. I typically tone him, and everyone, down in my lisitngs.

I mean, what did Goku do as kid, sit on rock and twidle his tumbs all day? He must have if he only reached around 400 in YEARS of training and yet, in under two years, reaches 300,000. I'll give him the benefit of having been dead and gaining special training for one of those years but still...

Goku increased his power tremendously in the late Saiya-jin and Freeza Sagas by exploiting the Saiya-jin ability to become stronger after recovering from near-death. He must have done it, what, at least three times?

-After being beaten to a pulp by Vegeta.

-Multiple times during the journey to Namek. (IIRC, that's why he only had a couple of senzu left when he finally arrived.)

-After recovering from his fight with Ginyu.

-Possibly after crash-landing on Yardrat...? He was in pretty bad shape.

I think that pretty much all of Goku, Gohan and Vegeta's power comes from taking advantage of that Saiya-jin attribute. I don't think that they would have ever reached the hundred thousands just through "normal" training. It's for this very reason why I doubt Goku and Gohan improved very much between the arrival of Trunks and the appearance of the "Artificial Humans".

[Xyex]

Yeah, from Future Trunks arrival - Kid Buu. I was doing a few more tweaks to them. That was going to be my third point, what everyone thought of my powers list.

I think that your estimates of Freeza and King Cold's power levels are fairly reasonable. However; the difference between Super Saiya-jin Trunks and Freeza strikes me as being too small. By your estimates, Freeza had about 80% of Trunks's power level. In the Saiya-jin Saga, Goku's scouter reading was only equivalent to 35% of Radditz's own, but he was able to survive fighting with him for a little while. Trunks appeared to have a much greater advantage, IMHO.

Trunks also had something of an advantage here, in that he had his sword, and he was greatly underestimated. Unlike in the fight against Raditz where Goku and Piccolo couldn't get close to him, both Frieza and Cold were cocky enough to allow Trunks in to attack. I could be off here still though, but I'm atributing Trunks's quick victory to his 'nonsense' attitude during the fight.

You also have "Artificial Humans" #16, #17 and #18 with about half of "Semi-Perfect" Cell's power level. If that were the case, then it seems like #16 and #18 would have had much more success with fighting Cell than they actually did in the series.

And here we hit the expanding 'feels like' nature of KI. The difference between powers is great enough at this point that it's no real contest, IMO. Because of the difference in power the 'feels like' difference is somewhere around 75 to 80% and not merely 50ish.

Mr. Satan - 21
Videl - 39

This one seems a little tricky to me. I suppose it really depends on what the scouters were measuring when they scanned someone. Mr. Satan has actually demonstrated far, far more durability than Videl. He got knocked 20 meters through the air by Cell and (IIRC) was also smacked by "Kid" Buu once and survived. Videl can obviously manipulate "ki" better than her father, but I don't think she's quite as physically resilient.

I've always looked at these lower powers as problematic as well. Where is the change from strong to super strong found? Basiclly I've figured that once you cross 25 you can fly. However, true strength at these levels is imeasurable because your KI isn't the source of your power. At this stage it's more your musscles than your KI, unless, like Videl, you can control it.

Chibi Trunks - 1,000,000
+ SSJ - 42,000,00

One million seems a little too high. Chibi Trunks couldn't handle 150G in Vegeta's gravity chamber, and Goku could tolerate about 70% of that before he landed on Namek in the Freeza Saga. I'd say something closer to Goku's scouter reading when he fought Ginyu would be more accurate.

You're right, Chibi Trunks couldn't hanlde 150G's at base, however, he'd never experienced it either. He could have been at four billion and still be dropped on his ass at 150G's the first time. In this kind of matter power seems to have little real relavance.

Goku - 3,650,000
+ SSJ - 125,000,000
+ SSJ2 - 530,000,000
+ SSJ3 - 780,000,000

The difference between Super Saiya-jin 2 and Super Saiya-jin 3 should be much larger than a 30% increase. Otherwise Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku and Vegeta should have been able to handle fighting "Kid" Buu easily.

Not really. First of all, SSJ3 drains large amounts of energy to sustain, energy that would other wise provide added power. I've always seen these drains as cumulative mean he's still trying to sustain SSJ1 and SSJ2 while sustain SSJ3. Secondly, at this level of power the 'Feels like' effect is in full force. 530 mill vs. 750 mill is not much challange. It's close enough to a good warm up but little else. And it's Vegeta's stubborn nature that let's him survive against Kid Buu more than his power.

You also pegged Kaioshin at about fifty times stronger than Goku in his normal form, but (IIRC) Kaioshin thought it would be necessary to gang up against Pui-Pui. Vegeta finished him easily without transforming into a Super Saiya-jin. This is the same Kaioshin who said he could beat Freeza effortlessly.

The first thing about Shin, he hasn't got a clue. I don't think he can even sense power levels to well, if at all. Pui-pui would be lucky to be over two million, or, hell, a million. I don't trust anything about power that comes out of his mouth, he's not used to mortals with any real power.

Plus, his memories of Buu probably skewed his thoughts on the kind of power the Majin's would have. IMHO Shin's estimates of power are as reliable Ginyu's first guess of Goku's power, if not worse.

[James R. Cadwell]

Trunks also had something of an advantage here, in that he had his sword, and he was greatly underestimated. Unlike in the fight against Raditz where Goku and Piccolo couldn't get close to him, both Freeza and Cold were cocky enough to allow Trunks in to attack. I could be off here still though, but I'm atributing Trunks's quick victory to his 'nonsense' attitude during the fight.

The sword really shouldn't have given Trunks any advantage. Its strength came from Trunks's own "ki" (as demonstrated when King Cold was unable to inflict any injuries with it), so the weapon didn't really allow him to do anything that he couldn't have done with his own two hands.

I've always looked at these lower powers as problematic as well. Where is the change from strong to super strong found? Basiclly I've figured that once you cross 25 you can fly. However, true strength at these levels is imeasurable because your KI isn't the source of your power. At this stage it's more your musscles than your KI, unless, like Videl, you can control it.

Makes sense. Although, I suspect that Mr. Satan may have some latent "ki" powers that typically don't manifest unless he's in some type of stressful situation. Surviving after being knocked twenty meters by Cell isn't something that should be possible without superhuman durability. (which I would assume comes from "ki", unless Mr. Satan has magic powers)

You're right, Chibi Trunks couldn't hanlde 150G's at base, however, he'd never experienced it either. He could have been at four billion and still be dropped on his ass at 150G's the first time. In this kind of matter power seems to have little real relavance.

This is precisely the way I thought originally. But if inexperience with high gravity was the primary factor in this case, Trunks wouldn't have been able to move in 150G as a Super Saiya-jin, either. The fact that he could demonstrates that power was probably directly related to his performance in higher gravity.

The first thing about Shin, he hasn't got a clue. I don't think he can even sense power levels to well, if at all.

IIRC, he was able to sense Goku's transformation into Super Saiya-jin 3 from a different dimension. He also seemed to recognize that Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan was incredibly powerful, which really isn't that evident from the environmental effects (i.e. earth-shaking, electrical discharges) of the transformation. He also knew that he could have defeated Freeza easily, and the only way he should have known that (without directly fighting him) would be by sensing his "ki".

Pui-pui would be lucky to be over two million, or, hell, a million. I don't trust anything about power that comes out of his mouth, he's not used to mortals with any real power.

Given that Kaioshin actually has a fair record of sensing "ki", I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his opinion of the other characters. Pui-Pui might not have seemed like much, but if Kaioshin was even momentarily concerned about him, he must have been stronger than Freeza.

Kaioshin really isn't overestimating all of his enemies, he's just making observations about their strength from his perspective.

Anyway, about Kaioshin's own power....

IMO, Kaioshin shouldn't really be much stronger than Goku was during the Cell Games. Kaioshin was familiar with Dabura and thought that he was impressively powerful. Goku thought that Dabura was "only" about as strong as Perfect Cell, and Vegeta seemed confident that he could finish him easily.

Plus, his memories of Buu probably skewed his thoughts on the kind of power the Majin's would have. IMHO Shin's estimates of power are as reliable Ginyu's first guess of Goku's power, if not worse.

Kaioshin's estimates only appear inaccurate because Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan could steamroll enemies who Kaioshin thought were powerful. This doesn't mean that Pui-Pui, Yakkon, and Dabura were actually weak, it just means that Goku and company are incredibly strong.

[Dayspring]

This is precisely the way I thought originally. But if inexperience with high gravity was the primary factor in this case, Trunks wouldn't have been able to move in 150G as a Super Saiya-jin, either. The fact that he could demonstrates that power was probably directly related to his performance in higher gravity.

Hmm. Since Goku had a PL of 90,000 at 100g, would you guys think Chibi Trunks non-SSJ power is between 90,000 and 135,000 (since 150g is 90,000 at 3/2)?

[eienmic]

Wait a sec, did I miss something? I have all the kanzenban and seen all the episodes but I don't ever recall Vegetto going SS2. Are you assuming that just because he had electricity around him in the first panel that he went SS2? The Story Guide lists just about every form each Saiyan ever achieved and SS2 is not one of them for Vegetto.

[eienmic]

Whoops, sorry about the double post but I forgot something. You listed SS3 Goku as being stronger than Kid Boo. How'd you figure that? At most they were equal but stronger? C'mon. Oh, and I didn't mean kanzenban, I meant tankobon.