Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dbzfan7]

See guys Freeza ain't so crazy anymore right? Vegeta in 6 month's did the same thing now too so take that Freezie pop. Vegeta also 1up's GT Goku's gains too which don't sound so ludicrous anymore. Though Freezer banana did it first...or second in this case.

Ok really there's still more time for Veggie and Goku to get stronger til Freeza arrives, but yeah needless to say I ain't sold on Super Vegetable in the least. But hey at least Vegeta can say he earned his power while Goku basically used a happy fun time circle.

[LightBing]

Well, now we know for sure that Vegeta didn't use the ritual to gain power. All hard work. It's fine, I guess. He is training under someone that can one shot Beerus. So I don't mind it, just wanted it to be elaborate upon.

It also inverts the speech Goku gave Vegeta during the first confrontation. While Goku had his power up given to him, Vegeta had to work to overcame his limits. In a sense, Goku became the prodigy/elite while Vegeta the hard worker that needs to catch up.

Let's see if they show Freeza's training..., I can live with Vegeta's explanation, it's common in Dragon Ball. Freeza prodigy thing, I need more to hold my suspense of disbelief.

[Khin]

So Whis can trap people in dimensions?

[Chiki]

So it's currently Whis >> Beerus >> Vegeta => Goku.

I wonder how strong Frieza will be in Super.

[Doctor.]

See guys Freeza ain't so crazy anymore right? Vegeta in 6 month's did the same thing now too so take that Freezie pop. Vegeta also 1up's GT Goku's gains too which don't sound so ludicrous anymore. Though Freezer banana did it first...or second in this case.

Ok really there's still more time for Veggie and Goku to get stronger til Freeza arrives, but yeah needless to say I ain't sold on Super Vegetable in the least. But hey at least Vegeta can say he earned his power while Goku basically used a happy fun time circle.

Yea, and it's absolutely ridiculous. So much for the "SSG is a power you can't reach by training" nonsense. The thing is that they didn't even bother to give an explanation (like anything modern Dragon Ball these days), so while we can ASSUME that Whis learned how to make Vegeta so strong after watching the SSG ritual, we can also ASSUME that Whis knew how to make them that strong all along, which turns the entire BoG arc's premise futile.

[ekrolo2]

I guess vague, massive boost giving out of nowhere is the standard for DB now. I know I'm gonna get plenty of "oh but they might explain it!" rebuttals, but that's giving Super too much credit imo. As it stands, Vegeta went from being the weakest of the Saiyan's to matching Goku in six months. I don't care what kind of weights Whis is making him lift, no amount of lifting heavy shit should give him that kind of boost.

EDIT: Oh and at least GT gave Goku a good 15 years of training (20 in the dub) between the end of Boo and the start of that series to where you can believe Goku would make a good boost. It's still ridiculous but I'll take 15 years over 6 months any day of the week.

[Doctor.]

I guess vague, massive boost giving out of nowhere is the standard for DB now. I know I'm gonna get plenty of "oh but they might explain it!" rebuttals but that's giving Super too much credit imo. As it stands, Vegeta went from being the weakest of the Saiyan's to matching Goku in six months. I don't care what kind of weights Whis is making him lift, no amount of lifting heavy shit should give him that kind of boost.

I think that excuse is giving Toriyama too much credit.

[ekrolo2]

I guess vague, massive boost giving out of nowhere is the standard for DB now. I know I'm gonna get plenty of "oh but they might explain it!" rebuttals but that's giving Super too much credit imo. As it stands, Vegeta went from being the weakest of the Saiyan's to matching Goku in six months. I don't care what kind of weights Whis is making him lift, no amount of lifting heavy shit should give him that kind of boost.

I think that excuse is giving Toriyama too much credit.

Damn! I missed a chance to take a pot shot at Toriyama

[Doctor.]

I've never thought that GT Goku's power boost was ridiculous. It was ridiculous in the sense that nobody else, for some reason, even got close to his power, not even Vegeta.

[LightBing]

This is common ground in the Dragon Ball, the god level is as big of a boost as the legendary Super Saiyan was in it's day. Vegeta reached it by training with the best of masters yet, kinda the same way he did to get SSJ, just without the master instead with the top notch training (gravity room).

The new the master/training methods, always had characters far surpass their previous limitation. Don't know why everyone is finding this unacceptable. Hey, I would like it to be elaborate upon. I'm not satisfied with this, however this is Dragon Ball.

[Doctor.]

This is common ground in the Dragon Ball, the god level is as big of a boost as the legendary Super Saiyan was in it's day. Vegeta reached it by training with the best of masters yet, kinda the same way he did to get SSJ, just without the master instead with the top notch training (gravity room).

The new the master/training methods, always had characters far surpass their previous limitation. Don't know why everyone is finding this unacceptable. Hey, I would like it to be elaborate upon. I'm not satisfied with this, however this is Dragon Ball.

Because every time a character achieved a new form, they always explain how, or at least we can assume they achieved it in the same way all the others did. Super Saiyan? By rage. The grade forms? By training. Super Saiyan 2? Rage for Gohan, training for everyone else. 3? Training.

What about God, however? Goku explicitly states that Super Saiyan Blue is a Saiyan who turned Super Saiyan after achieving the power of a Super Saiyan God. The ONLY method we know of how a SSG can be formed is the ritual. If Vegeta didn't get it through the ritual, and he didn't, then it NEEDS to be explained, no questions asked. You CAN'T present us with a method of achieving a transformation and a few episodes later just ignore it for plot convenience.

[ekrolo2]

I've never thought that GT Goku's power boost was ridiculous. It was ridiculous in the sense that nobody else, for some reason, even got close to his power, not even Vegeta.

TBF, most had good in-universe reasons for this. Goten and Trunks stopped training, Vegeta probably relaxed considerably with his own going by the logic of him accepting that Goku is the best. The only problem is Gohan. The Perfect Files say he did keep training but the series doesn't really show any fruit from that. Meaning the Files are wrong or Gohan was completely tapped out and he only practiced not to lose his established power level.

[fexus]

Because every time a character achieved a new form, they always explain how, or at least we can assume they achieved it in the same way all the others did. Super Saiyan? By rage. The grade forms? By training. Super Saiyan 2? Rage for Gohan, training for everyone else. 3? Training.

What about God, however? Goku explicitly states that Super Saiyan Blue is a Saiyan who turned Super Saiyan after achieving the power of a Super Saiyan God. The ONLY method we know of how a SSG can be formed is the ritual. If Vegeta didn't get it through the ritual, and he didn't, then it NEEDS to be explained, no questions asked. You CAN'T present us with a method of achieving a transformation and a few episodes later just ignore it for plot convenience.

It's not that hard. Vegeta probably got the power through training. Like right now he can even sense God ki. I really think that SSG ritual is just a way for you to bypass the necessary training that you need to get the God power. That doesn't mean that it is the only way to achieve that level of power. Whis or some other Gods at his level might be the only one that knows how to get at that level. There's really nothing wrong with people that doesn't know any better saying wrong information. For all they know the ritual might be the only way for them to reach God level.

[Bullza]

I suppose Goku having absorbed the God power did boost his Base power then. So if Vegeta were to go Super Saiyan now then he'd be equal to Goku as a Super Saiyan who is equal to his Super Saiyan God self?

The reason for why Vegeta is so strong is pretty lousy, they could have done something better than what they came up with. It's not THAT farfetched I suppose, it's mean he got about 6x stronger in 6 months.

I don't know how their base power compares to their Super Saiyan power but I doubt it's 50x now.

[Doctor.]

It's not that hard. Vegeta probably got the power through training. Like right now he can even sense God ki. I really think that SSG ritual is just a way for you to bypass the necessary training that you need to get the God power. That doesn't mean that it is the only way to achieve that level of power. Whis or some other Gods at his level might be the only one that knows how to get at that level. There's really nothing wrong with people that doesn't know any better saying wrong information. For all they know the ritual might be the only way for them to reach God level.

And that brings up the problem I stated earlier. If we're going to assume that Whis knows how to tap into that power, we can also assume he always knew how to do it, and that basically turns the premise of the BoG arc futile.

[ekrolo2]

If they do retell the recent movies, do you think they'll modify the power of some of the characters? I for one would not mind if they changed perceptions of FnF and diminished the gap between Beerus and Vegetto. I feel that huge gap is just to justify not using fusion, I preferred Beerus had an magic technique to dispel it. Put him between SSJ Vegetto and SSJ2 Vegetto otherwise it feels exaggerated.

That removes any and all tension from the movie. If the audience knows these two guys could've just fused and won then it removes any tension and devalues Beerus as a potential threat and just has the audience going "meh" the entire time.

The tension is non-existent already because 1) its Dragon Ball and 2) all this new stuff is before Oob and since Oob has to happen for this to work with the manga, nothing bad will/can happen for anyone. Besides, Beerus not being sextillion times stronger than Vegetto like everyone, their grandma and annoying dog like to think he is can be easily handwaved with: Goku is arrogant and doesn't want anyone else's help to fight Beerus and Vegeta doesn't wanna fuse with Goku again, least of all permanently.

[Sora Saiyan]

The characters just seem to get stronger when a ridiculous new power is revealed. I guess when they have something ridiculous to aim for they just somehow dig deeper and close in on that. I like it, even though it's ridiculous at least there is no limit for these characters.

[Birusu16]

If they do retell the recent movies, do you think they'll modify the power of some of the characters? I for one would not mind if they changed perceptions of FnF and diminished the gap between Beerus and Vegetto. I feel that huge gap is just to justify not using fusion, I preferred Beerus had an magic technique to dispel it. Put him between SSJ Vegetto and SSJ2 Vegetto otherwise it feels exaggerated.

That removes any and all tension from the movie. If the audience knows these two guys could've just fused and won then it removes any tension and devalues Beerus as a potential threat and just has the audience going "meh" the entire time.

The tension is non-existent already because 1) its Dragon Ball and 2) all this new stuff is before Oob and since Oob has to happen for this to work with the manga, nothing bad will/can happen for anyone. Besides, Beerus not being sextillion times stronger than Vegetto like everyone, their grandma and annoying dog like to think he is can be easily handwaved with: Goku is arrogant and doesn't want anyone else's help to fight Beerus and Vegeta doesn't wanna fuse with Goku again, least of all permanently.

1. Why are you quoting a post I made months ago?
2. Oob does not have to happen. He can easily be retconned and thrown out.
3. The Beerus and Vegetto point is irrelevant as Super has kept the exact same statements and implications as BoGs, which are that Beerus is FAR stronger than Vegetto.

[Bullza]

So how strong are Goku and Vegeta supposed to be in their base forms at this point? There doesn't seem to be any inclination as to where they stand.

Is base Goku at this point stronger than he was as a SSJ3 at the start of Super? Is base Vegeta stronger than when he was angry SSJ2 Vegeta?

Or how they just somewhat stronger than what their base power was before.

[ekrolo2]

The tension is non-existent already because 1) its Dragon Ball and 2) all this new stuff is before Oob and since Oob has to happen for this to work with the manga, nothing bad will/can happen for anyone. Besides, Beerus not being sextillion times stronger than Vegetto like everyone, their grandma and annoying dog like to think he is can be easily handwaved with: Goku is arrogant and doesn't want anyone else's help to fight Beerus and Vegeta doesn't wanna fuse with Goku again, least of all permanently.

1. Why are you quoting a post I made months ago?
2. Oob does not have to happen. He can easily be retconned and thrown out.
3. The Beerus and Vegetto point is irrelevant as Super has kept the exact same statements and implications as BoGs, which are that Beerus is FAR stronger than Vegetto.

It was months old? Weird, I saw it mixed in with the newer stuff lol. Must've been a glitch or something.
Oob is part of the manga, so unless Toriyama's only worthwhile as a defense cruch for any criticism or excuse, he's happening.
A statement which is based on a Goku who's arrogant enough to think he doesn't need anyone's help even though that's the only reason he beat Vegeta, Freeza, Cell and Boo and can't sense Beerus' power for shit. So yeah, Goku is an unreliable source of power information in this case.