Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[irreality]

Toriyama has a writing and art credit in the anime. He doesn't have a credit like that in the manga. Toyotaro is working off the material provided for the anime -- sure, following the chain of causation, Toriyama is "involved" in the manga, but that is a tertiary involvement. Toriyama is not personally providing notes or direction to Toyotaro.

[Pannaliciour]

Toriyama has a writing and art credit in the anime. He doesn't have a credit like that in the manga. Toyotaro is working off the material provided for the anime -- sure, following the chain of causation, Toriyama is "involved" in the manga, but that is a tertiary involvement. Toriyama is not personally providing notes or direction to Toyotaro.

How do you know that all? Because the following link contradicts your statement.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... ion/.88276

"The July issue of Shueisha's V Jump magazine is revealing on Thursday that Toyotarō will launch a manga version of the upcoming Dragon Ball Super television anime series. Dragon Ball manga creator Akira Toriyama is credited with the manga's original story."

[irreality]

Sure, Akira Toriyama is the story's original creator. He always credited as "Gensakusha" for any story relating to Dragon Ball, even if he writes nothing for it. This is not a particularly informative credit. This is not the same as his involvement in the anime, where it is specified:

Toriyama is credited as the original creator, as well as for "original story & character concepts." Toei Animation's Kimitoshi Chioka (Hakaba Kitarō, Kamisama Kazoku) is the series director, and Naoko Sagawa (Yomiko Advertising, Inc.) and Atsushi Kido (Toei Animation) join Nozaki as producers. Kido entered Toei just as the company was animating the Dragon Ball Z anime's Frieza arc.

In the anime, he is credited with both Gensaku as well as original story and character designs.

If you read the Japanese print in the image provided, it says "Gensaku": Toriyama Akira, "manga": Toyotarou.

Maybe he is more involved, but there has been no evidence that he is more involved in the manga than in the anime. Even this source says otherwise.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama is not personally providing notes or direction to Toyotaro.

He doesn't do that for Toei either, as far as we know. He is only doing the character designs & original drafts for the U6 arc, both of which are used by Toei & Toyotaro for the anime & manga respectively.

[buutenks]

My understanding is that currently ssj goku=base goku=ssj g goku.And the blue form is so it will increase their power,unlike the golden form which does nothing other than a visual change.

that would explain ssj goku not losing any power while god form time was up,base goku canceling beeru's final attack and vegeta and goku surviving an unrestrained ki blast from beerus.

[Sora Saiyan]

My understanding is that currently ssj goku=base goku=ssj g goku.And the blue form is so it will increase their power,unlike the golden form which does nothing other than a visual change.

that would explain ssj goku not losing any power while god form time was up,base goku canceling beeru's final attack and vegeta and goku surviving an unrestrained ki blast from beerus.

SSJ still definitely makes them stronger judging from the conversation Whis and the Oracle fish have.

[buutenks]

My understanding is that currently ssj goku=base goku=ssj g goku.And the blue form is so it will increase their power,unlike the golden form which does nothing other than a visual change.

that would explain ssj goku not losing any power while god form time was up,base goku canceling beeru's final attack and vegeta and goku surviving an unrestrained ki blast from beerus.

SSJ still definitely makes them stronger judging from the conversation Whis and the Oracle fish have.

Hmm,idk maybe whis meant ssj blue?Since he did say something about beyond this world or something like that.that or ssj golden form is a very small increase now?

[GTX]

My understanding is that currently ssj goku=base goku=ssj g goku.And the blue form is so it will increase their power,unlike the golden form which does nothing other than a visual change.

that would explain ssj goku not losing any power while god form time was up,base goku canceling beeru's final attack and vegeta and goku surviving an unrestrained ki blast from beerus.

Or mostly beerus already losing stamina. So even goku at base can withstand the attack like how base goku can beat super 17.

[Khin]

How come people saying Goku cant sense God Ki? it was pretty clear he can sense a God Ki when he teleport that alarm bomb to Whis.

[Bullza]

Well it was partially because 1. He's not supposed to be a God anymore and so shouldn't be able to and 2. In RoF Goku said he couldn't sense Beerus' or Whis' Ki.

To be honest none of it makes a lick of sense to me. King Kai's a God right? Goku can teleport to him so why can he sense his Ki but couldn't sense Beerus'?

I don't know if it was implied in Super that they need to be of a high enough level to be able to sense those with such an immense level of power. If so is that why they could sense King Kai because he's weak?

Amongst Gods is the level of power irrelevant and that's why King Kai could sense Beerus?

It's all very confusing.

[LightBing]

Well it was partially because 1. He's not supposed to be a God anymore and so shouldn't be able to and 2. In RoF Goku said he couldn't sense Beerus' or Whis' Ki.

To be honest none of it makes a lick of sense to me. King Kai's a God right? Goku can teleport to him so why can he sense his Ki but couldn't sense Beerus'?

I don't know if it was implied in Super that they need to be of a high enough level to be able to sense those with such an immense level of power. If so is that why they could sense King Kai because he's weak?

Amongst Gods is the level of power irrelevant and that's why King Kai could sense Beerus?

It's all very confusing.

You shouldn't take into consideration FnF, they are making some changes. In the most recent episode, both Vegeta and Goku are said to be able to feel God Ki. Whis explains the reason they can do it is, because they've reached a certain level.

For the possible King Kai's plot hole, it seems lower level Gods (Dende, King Kai) don't have God Ki but can feel it, based on their role. While the Kaioshins, Hakaishin and whatever Whis is, have it for sure.

[Bullza]

Was there anything to suggest they could or could not feel Supreme Kai's energy?

[LightBing]

Was there anything to suggest they could or could not feel Supreme Kai's energy?

During the tournament, besides the well know Piccolo statement, there this:

Spoiler:

Context: after Goku and co. meet Kaioshin and Kibito
Piccolo: “…Wh-who are they?...”
Goku: “…I dunno…But there’s no doubt that it’s no longer just us who are gonna have easy wins…”
Kuririn: “Eh? I wonder…He didn’t seem that great…He just looked like a weird guy to me.”
Note: In Japanese it’s not actually clear here whether Goku and Piccolo are referring to both Kaioshin and Kibito or just Kaioshin. Kuririn though says yatsu (‘guy’) rather than yatsu-ra (‘guys’) so he’s almost certainly talking about just Kaioshin. As the conversation continues at the start of the next chapter though, Goku and Piccolo are clearly wondering who both of them are.

And this:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

Besides those I don't think there's much more. Goku transports himself to the Kai's World by feeling Gohan's power. It's all very ambitious, there's not a direct statement were the humans actually feel Kaioshins power.
You can make a case that they can't feel them, because of God Ki and that they can and it's a plot hole. In both circumstances it would be a long streched discussion to see who is right.

I lean on the side where they didn't actually feel their powers. Only sizing them up(common in Dragon Ball) to understand they're out of the ordinary(during the TB).

[Barunks]

I've been wondering, what if SSB Goku/Vegeta are actually more powerful than Beerus but have had this fact intentionally hidden from them? If you think about it Beerus would probably be too stubborn to admit it and Whis would probably not tell them so they wouldn't get too cocky during training like they sort of were after beating Golden Freeza in the manga.

[LightBing]

Whis did told them during FnF that if they both teamed up, they could maybe defeat Beerus. Which for me puts them in the 8 - 8.5 range to Beerus 10.

[Bullza]

That seems too high to me because it'd mean Frieza would be a 9 and according to Toriyama he's no match for Beerus.

Goku and Piccolo went toe to toe with Raditz and individually they were only a third as strong as him.

I think SSJB is probably just the strenght of SSJG now.

[LightBing]

That seems too high to me because it'd mean Freeza would be a 9 and according to Toriyama he's no match for Beerus.

Goku and Piccolo went toe to toe with Raditz and individually they were only a third as strong as him.

I think SSJB is probably just the strenght of SSJG now.

He doesn't need to be that strong. If Goku was an 8.2, for example, Freeza could very well be an 8.5.

Goku and Piccolo didn't go toe to toe against Raditz, only Piccolo strongest attack (which took a long time to charge) did damage to the Saiyan. Besides that, they couldn't even touch him.
No way would Whis say they had a shot against Beerus, if they're both just a 6. 40% gap is humongous in Dragon Ball. Just check Goku(16.000) and Vegeta(18.000) fight, to see how important power is.

We'll need the next episode to clarify, but I feel their base is currently SSJG.

[Neon Z]

I think Toriyama retroactively increased the distance between SSJ God and Beerus for RoF. At the very least, Super seems to be extremely blatant about it, comparing Goku and Vegeta right now (a tree trunk) to the level of a god (the giant tree castle in the background).

[Bullza]

Well more and more I no longer think that base Goku in RoF is as strong as Super Saiyan God. I definitley don't think that anymore.

Again in RoF, Golden Freeza wasn't supposed to be as strong as Beerus at all. He then greatly depowered after fighting Goku but was still confident that base Vegeta was no match for him at all.

At least going by the dub it just seems like SSJB is Goku just tapping into his SSJG power just on his own.

[Neon Z]

At least going by the dub it just seems like SSJB is Goku just tapping into his SSJG power just on his own.

That can't be the case in Super though, since Goku SSJ facing Beerus was already stated to be as strong as Goku SSJ God. I don't think looking at the movies' statements that closely is good if you're discussing Super.